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  1. #1

    Is there really a Classic WoW period: Vanilla-WotLK?

    I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

    TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

    All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.

  2. #2
    Yes it is becasue they were built on the pre-Cata engine using the old systems, spell stacks, and database. So even from a dev standpoint that would be classic.
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  3. #3
    Vanilla to WotLK had the old world to explore and free-form talent trees. Obviously there's a large gradient of changes and everyone is free to draw the line at the point they consider the "golden age" but I'd say the removal of the old world and disallowing hybrid-specs is a pretty good place to draw a definitive line.

  4. #4
    I think it's because of the general design philosophy. quests after cata were more on-rails and usually attempting to create a unique story for each zone, more or less. having the talent trees pruned in cata and then removed in MoP was also a big change that sort of marked this transition I think.
    ...that's just my opinion, anyway.

    All of this cosmological stuff is too boring for me. I'd like to get Warcraft back, please. my thing is killing defias and orcs.

  5. #5
    Old talent system, old zones, hybrid specs those things were changed in Cataclysm.

  6. #6
    Warchief taishar68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

    TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

    All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.
    I like flying; LFG would have been a great tool if they had designed it differently; keep it server only, and still require you to get to the dungeon on your own. But that is just my opinion, I am certain that as it was implemented was a boon for many players.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    I've seen a few people claim that there is "general consensus" that WoW Classic is actually a WoW period that includes Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. Is it though?

    TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.

    All of a sudden claiming that Classic period is a thing is a bit disingenuous.
    Nostalgia. Thats about it really.

  8. #8
    Warchief roboscorcher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post

    TBC and Wrath introduced 2 of the worst features of WoW: flying mounts and LFG tool. That's where, arguably, "the decline" started.
    I think it's more about the story arc and player interest than game mechanics. Vanilla to Wrath was a period of unprecedented growth. I played during Wrath, and there was a sense of finality after killing Arthas. At the time, it felt like the lore was over, like "we killed the big-bad of Azeroth, where do we go from here?"

    Much like Endgame, Wrath marks the end of an era.

  9. #9
    I think people put them in one bracket because from Vanilla to WotLK the game was still growing and the philosophy was very similar whereas everything that came after merely kept it alive and slowed its decline. There's also a lot of things that simply vanished or were altered to a large degree with Cata. Stats, talents - even the world were different.

    I'd say there are roughly 3 brackets when it comes to WoW. Vanilla-WotLK which was sort of a golden age with a solid foundation of well-designed RPG mechanics and a huge emphasis on expanding the world, Cata-WoD which marked the trimming of many of the old RPG mechanics in favour of a more balanced game and Legion-Shadowlands which is when the rest of the original RPG mechanics got pruned away and the game started to lean very heavily on expansion-specific systems to make up for the resulting lack of depth.

    Always seemed weird to me how they would ruin a perfectly fine RPG that was working as intended by rotting away the very core for the sake of balance only to throw that balance out of the window again and replace it with even more unbalanced systems that try to emulate the feeling of the original game but also have a timer on them.

  10. #10
    TBC, mostly yes.

    Overall, TBC did not fundamentally overhaul the game, it still had linear progression, more unique itemization with the biggest outliers on the low and top end removed, gear came from a variety of sources (rather than just raiding) and the class design still had the Vanilla feeling in a more balanced fashion.

    While flying became a thing, the world was still relevant, you had to farm stuff for your powerful craftable items, reputation factions were designed with flying in mind.

    Wotlk however, is where i disagree.
    Wotlk really kicked the "play the patch" philosophy off that now dominates the game, it also introduced Itemlevel which then started to streamline the gearing process.

    Not to mention that the introduction of multiple layers of difficulty heavily casualized raiding, alongside the heavily nerfed heroics.
    It's also where the "go go go" mentality kicked off because mana started to matter less and more tanks / dps became capable of AoE'ing.
    Homogenization also started to kick in with the "bring the player, not the class" mentality taking hold, no longer did a real support niche exist

    It also no longer held the powerful craftable items that Classic / TBC had, farming materials in the outdoor world became a thing of the past.

    Classic & TBC are overall made out the same / similiar cloth, while flying is a breakaway, the fact that the 5k Gold barrier was at the time pretty huge, stalled many people from truly experiencing it (regular flying was even slower than epic riding with 60%).

    Wotlk is to me a transition phase to Cata / MoP, where the game started to become less RPG and more gameplay driven, it still had RPG elements, but they were tarnished.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-09-15 at 07:44 PM.

  11. #11
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    no, vanilla was classic because it had that fresh, brand new, exploring feeling. TBC and certainly WOTLK are way too new to be considered classic, like just thinking of how many daily quests i had to do during the course of them puts a sour taste in my mouth.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbeef View Post
    no, vanilla was classic because it had that fresh, brand new, exploring feeling. TBC and certainly WOTLK are way too new to be considered classic, like just thinking of how many daily quests i had to do during the course of them puts a sour taste in my mouth.
    TBC came out january 2007, id consider it classic.
    Last edited by RevolverLynx; 2020-09-15 at 08:20 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbeef View Post
    no, vanilla was classic because it had that fresh, brand new, exploring feeling. TBC and certainly WOTLK are way too new to be considered classic, like just thinking of how many daily quests i had to do during the course of them puts a sour taste in my mouth.
    You do realize that we've had Cata zones for almost twice as long now as we ever had old Vanilla zones? 10 years vs 6 years. TBC and WotLK are certainly not new, no matter how you try to spin it.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    TBC, mostly yes.

    Overall, TBC did not fundamentally overhaul the game, it still had linear progression, more unique itemization with the biggest outliers on the low and top end removed, gear came from a variety of sources (rather than just raiding) and the class design still had the Vanilla feeling in a more balanced fashion.

    While flying became a thing, the world was still relevant, you had to farm stuff for your powerful craftable items, reputation factions were designed with flying in mind.

    Wotlk however, is where i disagree.
    Wotlk really kicked the "play the patch" philosophy off that now dominates the game, it also introduced Itemlevel which then started to streamline the gearing process.

    Not to mention that the introduction of multiple layers of difficulty heavily casualized raiding, alongside the heavily nerfed heroics.
    It's also where the "go go go" mentality kicked off because mana started to matter less and more tanks / dps became capable of AoE'ing.
    Homogenization also started to kick in with the "bring the player, not the class" mentality taking hold, no longer did a real support niche exist

    It also no longer held the powerful craftable items that Classic / TBC had, farming materials in the outdoor world became a thing of the past.

    Classic & TBC are overall made out the same / similiar cloth, while flying is a breakaway, the fact that the 5k Gold barrier was at the time pretty huge, stalled many people from truly experiencing it (regular flying was even slower than epic riding with 60%).

    Wotlk is to me a transition phase to Cata / MoP, where the game started to become less RPG and more gameplay driven, it still had RPG elements, but they were tarnished.
    +10chars! Amen

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbeef View Post
    no, vanilla was classic because it had that fresh, brand new, exploring feeling. TBC and certainly WOTLK are way too new to be considered classic, like just thinking of how many daily quests i had to do during the course of them puts a sour taste in my mouth.
    What a confusing post - so vanilla is classic because of exploration, but tbc isnt classic because it isnt old enough? Dont you feel you should apply the same standard to each? Because im pretty damn sure going through the dark portal to fight demons in outland was "new" and there was plenty of exploring to do. I would also argue that when looking at a 15+ year old game, 13 years is still pretty old.

  16. #16
    Pandaren Monk Demsi's Avatar
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    To me atleast Vanilla to Wotlk is "classic" because of how much the game changed on a fundamental level in Cata (for better and worse)

  17. #17
    No, there's just insane people who like to classify WoW as periods of growth therefore good and periods of constriction therefore bad. And since these arguments are intellectually dishonest and hold absolutely zero water when applying even a modicum of critical thinking to them, the actual answer is that WoW is WoW regardless of the ridiculous labels you put on it to signify your personal preference.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2020-09-15 at 08:39 PM.

  18. #18
    LFG and flying mounts have absolutely nothing to do with game going downhill.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    To me atleast Vanilla to Wotlk is "classic" because of how much the game changed on a fundamental level in Cata (for better and worse)
    Wotlk still had some of that old athmosphere left yes.

  20. #20
    The classic era was Vanilla to WotLk. It's the era where we used the classic talents, stat system and world. It is WoW 1.

    WoW 2 was Cata to WoD. Still very similar to WoW 1 but this is we had the new world, new talents and a move towards more content for smaller groups.

    WoW 3 is Legion to SL. True alternate gearing, systems on top of gear, catering to smaller groups, and the consolidation of seasons. It wasn't impossible before but WoW 3 is the easiest for a player to come back and start doing endgame of current content. I wonder what they will do in WoW 4?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

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