If you're not going for CE you have no right to ask for things in the game

[OrcsRLame]

Being restricted is not automatically a bad thing in games. Restrictions are a necessary part of what gives games meaning.

You cant be a warrior and also cast healing spells. If you could, you would have more options, but you would also destroy the game balance AND the lore.
Coveneants are designed around the same philosophy. You pick a package and everything in that package is designed to work with each other and have a lore theme. Letting you pick parts of the package but not other parts would destroy the game balance AND the lore.

Now, you can tell Blizzard to not design adittional packaged choices on top of the ones we already have anymore, because that is not a design you enjoy. But saying that you have not seen a reason why some choices in the game should be bundled up (restricted) is like saying you dont understand why the game has classes.


(wether coveneants are an example of a well executed design is a different story of course. But you seem to be questioning the sense behind ever restricting players in their choices)

No I'm talking about covenants specifically, not the idea of restricting players in any way whatsoever.

[deenman]

Imagine thinking the game is cattered to the ''mythical 1%'',when everything in the game ever added in recent decades besides mythic+ has been for casuals,or made to be casual friendly,honestly...i dont understand people like you...is trolling forums some kind of kink?

[Vrinara]

I'm so damn confused. The title makes it sound like some entitled 12 year old on the internet is telling people they can't ask for something when they are paying for a game. Yet if you read what the OP says, it sounds like someone else said it? I (And many others) am so confused...

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All I am gonna say is. No one has the right to deny a paying customer the right to ask for something. That's up to the game devs if they listen. What some people on the internet don't seem to understand is that no matter how much you cry about something, you wont get your way. We are just specs on the internet. Just single specs. Yes we have a right to an opinion, but at the end of the day, I'm paying 15$ a month. If I wanna ask for something, By fucking hell, I will ask for something. Doesn't mean I will get it. Don't let people push you around and say "Oh if you don't shoot for This this and this, you have no right to do this this and this" Don't let one single spec put ya down.

[plz delete account]

That makes sense, I kept thinking in my head "Collectors Edition" and confused myself.

thought that too and was like... "WTF this guy does NOT represent us."

[Kaver]

[ihate2beapessimist]

@Kaver
So what we can expect is that SL will be shit at first, with 30% of our power tied to SYSTEMS and they will eventually (a couple months later) give us freedom to do what we want. We already know this, but folks will still act surprised.

[Kaver]

@Kaver
So what we can expect is that SL will be shit at first, with 30% of our power tied to SYSTEMS and they will eventually (a couple months later) give us freedom to do what we want. We already know this, but folks will still act surprised.

“a couple months later”... that’s very optimistic. 1 year sounds more likely..

[Swnem]

Yeah... the whole us vs them thing is outplayed and unrealistic.
The reality is most players don't sit on any of the extremes and both are loud minorities pushing agendas.

Also, buying CE will just have your money funneled to the greedy exec fat bonus. It's just like flushing it down the toilet, unless you really like the things offered.

[Zogarth]

If you don't even get at least 2.4k+ every season you have no right to ask for things in the game.

[Lei]

well, its not fake, thats the thing... its not meaningful TO YOU, other people have different opinion...
the choice is as "fake" as abilities will be "mandatory" for certain content - objectively, both ideas are bullshit, but this is not about objectivity, people FEEL the ability is mandatory, so it is to them, others feel the choice is meaningful so it is to them...

what is objectively going to change is if the abilities are unlocked you WILL BE pushed to change them for the benefit of group, even if you hate them

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its been explained thousand times, if you ignored it so far i see no point in repeating it...
if you truly are interested in trying to understand it perhaps READ what people who are "pro-lock" comment, rather than just handwave it as "nah, they are wrong bcs i disagree"

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or since WoD
or panda
or cata
or wotlk
or BC
or vanila
or we DONT have this problem...
depends on who you ask...

Please tell me where and when did you have a clash of core gameplay interest between casual players and cutting edge players in WoD, in MoP, in Cata, in Wrath, in BC. Where multiple groups of people (cutting edge vs casuals) had to deal with the very same player power element and it caused a huge problem? And from which PoV. (cutting edge vs casuals). Thanks.

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If you don't even get at least 2.4k+ every season you have no right to ask for things in the game.

If you don't even have 30k achieve points you have no right to ask for things in the game.

[Lolites]

Please tell me where and when did you have a clash of core gameplay interest between casual players and cutting edge players in WoD, in MoP, in Cata, in Wrath, in BC.

we didnt, and neither we have now, its not "cutting edge vs. casuals" its pro-lock vs. swapers (cant think of better names ), casuals and CE players are in both groups...

[Lei]

we didnt, and neither we have now, its not "cutting edge vs. casuals" its pro-lock vs. swapers (cant think of better names ), casuals and CE players are in both groups...

I couldn't think of better names for casuals either. But we clearly have a core gameplay interest clash here. And we had in both BfA (when azerite gear wasnt targetable and corruptions werent on the vendor) and in Legion too. The very moment they started to mix player power with "player fantasy" (?) we fell into this pit of groups of players blaming each others for stuff the devs are responsible for directly and actively and knowingly.

[Lolites]

The very moment they started to mix player power with "player fantasy"

soo... vanila? well, actualy alpha testing of vanila... classes and specs and in vanila even profesions to certain degree were mixing player power and "fantasy"...

seems to me you are just pissed bcs you want to not bcs there is something specific to be pissed about... so dont bother answering, not interesting in pointless debate

[Popokolara]

I'm not sure what's dishonest about what I said. While you may see the concept differently than I do, I have a hard time accepting that my view is a "dishonest" one as opposed to simply a different one than you have.

But going with the way you phrased it, I'm still not sure that I buy that as a good reason to make covenant abilities into talents. There are already enough blocks in place (class abilities, ilevel, raider.io, specific gear/trinkets, class armor type, racial ability, parse) that someone trying to plan for all the blocks may well have a hard time setting up a group. The question then as I see it is how many players will actually block people out from groups for the "wrong" covenant ability? Or the wrong Soulbinds? Or the wrong Conduits? Taking out one level of that complexity will only bring another to the forefront, and this is a problem that even if everything covenant were individually selected (the proverbial ripcord being pulled) would persist, so why then should Blizz be forced to adjust their design around an issue that will persist even if all non-transmog covenant links are taken out and all options are freely selectable as talents?

Your thought process is since there are 10 layers of issues its pointless to remove just 1 since then another becomes the first one. As for the: there are already enough blocks into place. Guys wake up. The covenant is another block, lockout or not. Just because it has a lockout it doesnt transmute into a majestic white unicorn. the only thing it does is give a support to convince people its not your fault you have the non optimal choice for a content type. ITs blizzard's.
And dealing with the situation of what "they" want vs what i have/want is something that will exist regardless. The lockout simply makes it even worse.
If one needs the big bad blizz vilain to justify then they are playing an mmo like a moba with random matchmaking, or are completely inept at the social interaction theyfind themselves in.

NONE of these 2 can be a good design guideline, under any reasoning: unles....if the game was a moba .

Therein lies part of the problem. A screwdriver is a tool, so is a truck. They are different sorts of tools used for different things. What you are vying for is an easily swappable tool set, say being able to switch out a screwdriver for a hammer. Blizz however sees this similar to a car or a truck. A lot of people can only afford one or the other, so there is a choice between the extra room in certain cars vs. the extra cargo room of a truck. If Blizz sees this as a car vs. truck setup, why then would they want it to be quickly swappable in the same way a screwdriver might be for certain jobs vs. a hammer?

why are you making a hypothetical that is so weird and illogical to frame an argument?
You have a "smart" screwdriver and an ELECTRICAL screwdriver. One needs battery recharge but both are really strong. equally strong. THAT is an honest comparisson.
By making the second a TRUCK a huge vehicle that is extremely more expensive and has massive implications you twist the situation. This is why i said your arguments are not honest.

Not sure I agree with your sentiments here, but I'll try explaining why I find that fun with the restriction. As it stands currently with the talent setup, I tend to swap my spells out per boss fight. Sometimes I'll use Cenarion Ward, sometimes I'll use Abundance. Really though, each of those spells just feel like they sort of come and go, but not like they are truly part of my rotation and setup. Having the ability locked out makes it something I really can throw into my rotation as a constant and get more comfortable with. If it were a talent, I'd be forced to swap it fight by fight depending on whatever the raid guides say to use. So long as each spell has one spot where it actually can shine above the others, I actually get to truly choose the ability I want to keep and get familiar with.

" So long as each spell has one spot where it actually can shine above the others" already happens regardless of covenant. Does not necessiate a lockout.
"I actually get to truly choose the ability I want to keep and get familiar with." i dont get it, why the previous sentence is needed at all? they dont work together. If you enter situation A you choose tool A which you love. But in situation B tool B will shine. Do you mean you have a reason to not roll tool B in situation B and can keep tool A that you love? Because the reason you do this is that you are locked out of B due to the lockout. It doesnt have to do with tool A shinning. its about the lockout as a crutch for your preference vs the social consequences.
So you find fun the idea of a more consistent gameplay. 100% respect that.

But
Is that prevented by the free swap of covenants?
Only if you are "forced" into it by the meta
Which means 2 things.
1. social ineptitude to actually find a group you can enjoy raid with and will accept your preference and need the big daddy blizz to give an excuse so they accept.
2. You do it yourself because you want to offer the very best even though you like ability A.
That is literally an argument of: Because i like a specific talent in my gameplay i want this system to have an excuse to be locked out.
Ok so what happens when you start prog on the final boss which will take 200 pulls? You will still not change to tool B?
Well well well covenant didnt really help you where it counts: the hard bosses which take more than a week or 2 will still be the current situation of choice: Pick good ability or liked ability and deal with the qonsequences. lockout is irrelevant.

While you are certainly helping out all four at once, there is one that you specifically are working with and learning from at a time. I might run out and help out the Venthyr from time to time, but if I'm working towards gathering anima for the Night Fae, I am in essence their student/assistant within the Shadowlands. Given that each is to my knowledge working to fix their own anima issues within the Shadowlands, it makes sense that they would want you to specifically work for them, rather than feeling like they only get whatever anima crumbs you bring back and would keep such teachings/powers behind their contracts.

That is entirely a excuse system to trick you into the association. Imagine if zuldazar dailies were locked to the faction you chose like in SL. Same thing exactly only each day u got emissary from your faction: but the quests demanded 4 quest in voldun or 4 in stormsong. ITS THE SAME THING! you got a difference icon and something it matters. 100% placebo.

If swapping were free because you work with all, I'm not so sure that it would truly be ZERO difference as you put it. Raids and specific boss strats by themselves would require you to have the swaps in place, and fights would be balanced around those specific abilities. The abilities would feel like just another spell rather than a gift from the specific covenant (which is really what they storywise are). As is, I at least feel like the choice is mine as there likely won't be a best covenant that covers all cases and all fights.

That is a very good argument. And here comes the question
1.You are in a raid team that cares for its world rank and will do what is needed, like they always did.
2.You are in a raid team that does not care for its world rank and will play what is fun going through mythic a lot slowly or even stop at heroic like they always do.
Which of these will suffer from the design IF it indeed goes that way? Only the second and only if they are such selfish idiots to blame the design for being bad at the game.

Again there is a placebo in there but alongside it how is balanced dealt with. That is one of the dead ends blizzard bound themselves to on purpose to make more pathetic reasons for this system. I say pathetic because they literally made the whole thing user unfriendly to the very basic level of interfaces and clicks to dissuade the casual playerbase from supporting swapping. Its all designend badly on purpose.

IMO, that's less a problem with this system and more a problem with Blizzard as a whole. They do that constantly with abilities, classes, & specs; even to the point of telling people that Blizz would "rather people not play Demonology." Perhaps having it open would be better to help Blizz with their own issues, but I personally feel the proper solution to this issue is Blizz to tune back their random nerf/buff issues to an acceptable level. Without that, everything becomes a potential problem. Classes go from FOTM to not getting invites. Trinkets go from junk to BiS.

100% agreee and the same nerf buff rollercoaster will hit covenants mid expac.

[Lei]

soo... vanila? well, actualy alpha testing of vanila... classes and specs and in vanila even profesions to certain degree were mixing player power and "fantasy"...

seems to me you are just pissed bcs you want to not bcs there is something specific to be pissed about... so dont bother answering, not interesting in pointless debate

Why are you so dramatic? Do i look pissed? There's nothing I can answer to this because you're stalling. Good talk!

[Zogarth]

If you don't even have 30k achieve points you have no right to ask for things in the game.

I apologize, but you must send your full resume along with at least two references from former arena partners or raid leaders before you can give any feedback. Any account with less than 30k achievement points that isn't at least also 15 years old will also be automatically excluded.

[Lei]

I apologize, but you must send your full resume along with at least two references from former arena partners or raid leaders before you can give any feedback. Any account with less than 30k achievement points that isn't at least also 15 years old will also be automatically excluded.

Fully agreed!

[Amsden]

Pfft I only accept the opinions of those who bought their CE. Earn it? Nobody has time for that!

Seriously though every spec will have it's "best" covenant, if you don't think that will affect the casual player base you are dead wrong. People check IO and black list specs for low keys and normal raid pugs now. The "Meta" will affect everyone who does content above LFR.

[Zyky]

@Kaver
So what we can expect is that SL will be shit at first, with 30% of our power tied to SYSTEMS and they will eventually (a couple months later) give us freedom to do what we want. We already know this, but folks will still act surprised.

Very optimistic....It took them over a year and a half for the Legendary Vendor in Legion and half a year in BFA for the Residuum vendor and Corruption vendor. If we're lucky We'll have something fixed by the time the 2nd tier comes out, but even that's optimistic since this isn't something a vendor can fix.

[Arthzull]

"If you're not going for CE you have no right to ask for things in the game" Seeing that just makes me think of these elitists who think they are better then anyone.

My opinion is, I pay the same amount of money on a sub every month as everyone else that plays. Just because I work all day and have a life does not mean I do not get a say, end of story, I get on and level my toons, do LFR do world quests, and play with what time I have during the day. People can say "If you're not going for CE you have no right to ask for things in the game" But that is their opinion, not a fact. Stop telling people what they can and cannot do in a game you have no control over.

Am I a Casual? Yes, I am, does that mean the money I spend every month on this game means less than these hardcore raiders? nope!