Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Noxx79]

The main counter-argument against that reasoning for me is how it disregards the acceptance of cultural differences.

Do you believe 'black culture' exists? And if it exists should it be respected?
Should it be respected even if it is one of the main causes for demographic inequalities?

Should black culture disregard it's ties to 'a history of oppression' and how that ties them closer to not having as much respect for career-building or the system of western academics and how those academics tie further into the professional market?

Where are you getting the bold from other than your racism?

[Felya]

Should black culture disregard it's ties to 'a history of oppression' and how that ties them closer to not having as much respect for career-building or the system of western academics and how those academics tie further into the professional market?

Which black culture? Are you talking about Dominicans? How about Cubans? Is it African or Caribbean? Is it black people that have spend generations in US? What is this black culture?

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Either way, you're not actually making a counter-argument to anything I said; your position fits entirely within the framework I established.

It’s blaming the victim...

[Endus]

Which black culture? Are you talking about Dominicans? How about Cubans? Is it African or Caribbean? Is it black people that have spend generations in US? What is this black culture?

To be clear, this is why I took pains to put "black culture" in quotes. Even "African-American culture" isn't a single cohesive thing, let alone any broader consideration. Kind of like how there's no such thing as "white culture".

[Felya]

To be clear, this is why I took pains to put "black culture" in quotes. Even "African-American culture" isn't a single cohesive thing, let alone any broader consideration. Kind of like how there's no such thing as "white culture".

It’s a racist catch all... “I’m Dominican”... I believe is a joke from a Spike Lee movie, I just don’t remember which one. It’s textbook racism...

[jonnysensible]

"white culture".

white culture is eating plain toast and watching seinfeld please stop denying it exists

[Endus]

I don't think culture has anything to do with "nature".

But what you're basically are arguing for is that there shouldn't be such a thing as 'black identity' and that they should just merge into the 'white identity' as to have the exact same demographics.

Nope. That's a lie. I'm saying if you have an issue with someone over their "black identity" or their cultural expressions, that means you're a bigot.

If you're arguing for removing any differences in demographics you are either arguing for:
#1 - removal of black identity or respect for black culture
#2 - a society that has different rules for every culture or identity, as long as the demographic equality can be safe-guarded. Which might mean something along the lines of certain identities needing lower degrees for certain jobs, certain identities being given higher pay, wages, holidays than others. Different punishments in the justice system for people who are part of different identities.

Nothing about these cultural differences naturally create any difference in outcome.

Which is the other lie in your post; you are arguing "nature". That these cultural differences lead to such a difference naturally, and that it isn't the result of bigotry and power dynamics.

As for #2; if your societal "rules" privilege one culture or identity over another, that's literally what systemic racism is. You can't have different outcomes if all cultures are treated equitably and fairly, not unless you're arguing that there are deeper inherent inferiorities to certain groups or cultures. Which, again, is just straight-up racism and bigotry.

You're still not making an argument that goes against what I've said. You're just providing examples of the arguments people use to try and self-justify their personal bigotries, or their support of systemic injustices.

[Felya]

I don't think culture has anything to do with "nature".

Unless they are black...

But what you're basically are arguing for is that there shouldn't be such a thing as 'black identity' and that they should just merge into the 'white identity' as to have the exact same demographics.

No, it’s saying that you are creating boundaries within American culture it self. Racism is not a black or white culture problem, it’s a problem with American culture.

If you're arguing for removing any differences in demographics you are either arguing for:
#1 - removal of black identity or respect for black culture

No, it doesn’t... because it’s American culture regardless. Black people do not have a singular culture and what you are doing is trying to equate the many different people that you are calling “black culture”.

#2 - a society that has different rules for every culture or identity, as long as the demographic equality can be safe-guarded. Which might mean something along the lines of certain identities needing lower degrees for certain jobs, certain identities being given higher pay, wages, holidays than others. Different punishments in the justice system for people who are part of different identities.

What?

#1 is just outright racist, cultural genocide
#2 is also outright discrimination and segregation

Both are what you are doing.

Personally I have a lot of respect for black culture and their different value systems. I admire different cultures and all the little things that makes them different and stand out from everyone else.

Tell me about the parts of “black culture” you admire... list them... please...

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white culture is eating plain toast and watching seinfeld please stop denying it exists

Look at this guy... thinks he know what he is talking about and not mentioning mayonnaise...



“It’s what runs through the blood stream of every Slav”

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The main counter-argument against that reasoning for me is how it disregards the acceptance of cultural differences.

Do you believe 'black culture' exists? And if it exists should it be respected?
Should it be respected even if it is one of the main causes for demographic inequalities?

Should black culture disregard it's ties to 'a history of oppression' and how that ties them closer to not having as much respect for career-building or the system of western academics and how those academics tie further into the professional market?

Does black culture exist? No, there are a multitude of different cultures black people can have and to say/imply that there is a black culture is in of it self racist.

Getting beyond the basic racism. should the problematic culture that some black People be respected.This depends on what you mean by respected It shouldn’t be raised up and promoted but it should also be respected as something that didn’t just come about on its own and with time will improve if allowed to do so unlike currently where there is a vested interest to keep it the way it is.

To the history of oppression it absolutely shouldn’t cut any ties as that history is a massive part of why the culture changes into what it is today and why it’s stayed this way for so long with current oppression though different means propagating the culture to continue the way it is.

[Shadowferal]

Poll: Support for Black Lives Matter drops 12 points since June

Not surprising...

[Felya]

But trying to make both have identical demographics is basically arguing for trying to get rid of cultural differences.

Literally what you are doing when saying “black culture”.

I disagree. Some cultures put more weight and value in different things: eg. Warrior Culture vs. Academic Culture.
Certain cultures put a lot of value in putting lots of hours of effort into labor every day, others put more value in glamour and fashion etc.
All of those things and what culture you grow up in might define exactly what the majority of your culture's demographic might be interested in or interested in pursuing later in life. Culture is probably the main defining factor why demographic differences exist between different groups of people.

You are making an argument that all black people are the same. The lack of understanding that there is no difference between you and those that don’t look like you, is the main problem. It wouldn’t be hard to over come, but we have people like Tim Pool being racist pricks for financial gain, and the fools that spread it for no gain of their own.

Power dynamics, yes.
But it doesn't necessarily have to be because of bigotry. Maybe the strong and greater respect for different values in life is entirely caused by an internal drive and desire. If a certain culture worships being rebellious more over another, then that culture is going to create more rebels. If one culture worships 'obeying the elders' more than another, then that culture will create more people who give solemn respect to the wisdom of their elders.

If it didn’t have to be about bigotry, you wouldn’t be blaming black culture, for American systematic racism.

Also, as to your other point. A culture does not need to be entirely homogenous, just like a race doesn't need to be. It's just a high-level abstract concept to be able to refer to heterogenous groups.

Abstract concept that is also the defining characteristic in conflict? That’s a contradiction...

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Poll: Support for Black Lives Matter drops 12 points since June

Not surprising...

Indeed, Trump’s RNC was in June and he ratchet up his rhetoric against BLM. Even @Ghostpanther is openly complaining about “extreme leftist”...

The drop was most evident among partisans: For Republicans, support for Black Lives Matter dropped from 37 percent to 16 percent. Among Democrats it has decreased minimally, from 92 percent support to 88 percent.

[Endus]

But trying to make both have identical demographics is basically arguing for trying to get rid of cultural differences.

You seem to be confused by what words mean, because what you just said makes absolutely zero sense. If your society produces varying outcomes because it supports and privileges some culture(s) over others, that's what systemic racism is.

There's nothing about ending systemic racism that involves cultural hegemony. It is, in fact, the exact opposite of that.

I disagree. Some cultures put more weight and value in different things: eg. Warrior Culture vs. Academic Culture.
Certain cultures put a lot of value in putting lots of hours of effort into labor every day, others put more value in glamour and fashion etc.
All of those things and what culture you grow up in might define exactly what the majority of your culture's demographic might be interested in or interested in pursuing later in life. Culture is probably the main defining factor why demographic differences exist between different groups of people.

You're describing systemic racism, and you can't apparently tell that it is systemic racism.

Power dynamics, yes.
But it doesn't necessarily have to be because of bigotry. Maybe the strong and greater respect for different values in life is entirely caused by an internal drive and desire. If a certain culture worships being rebellious more over another, then that culture is going to create more rebels. If one culture worships 'obeying the elders' more than another, then that culture will create more people who give solemn respect to the wisdom of their elders.

Again, if your society privileges one culture over the other, because it prefers the values of that culture over the other, that's literally whats systemic racism is.

You're just saying "but if we're systemically racist and don't treat people fairly and equitably, that's totally natural and justifiable!" And no, it isn't and it's not.

Also, as to your other point. A culture does not need to be entirely homogenous, just like a race doesn't need to be. It's just a high-level abstract concept to be able to refer to heterogenous groups.

The issue you'll have is that there is essentially no central connective tissue to define "black culture", as distinct from other groups. Even the name; you define it based on color of skin, which has nothing to do with culture in the first place.

That you think "black culture" exists is the problem.

[Edge-]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wi...MW_latest_news

And the law enforcement response continues to be unhinged, especially from the DOJ. AG Barr is name dropping "sedition" in the list of potential charges against protesters, which is patently fuckin ludicrous to the extreme.

It's political red meat, nothing more.

[Felya]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wi...MW_latest_news

And the law enforcement response continues to be unhinged, especially from the DOJ. AG Barr is name dropping "sedition" in the list of potential charges against protesters, which is patently fuckin ludicrous to the extreme.

It's political red meat, nothing more.

That’s herring meat... as I posted earlier in another thread, one of Trump HHS appointments just took a 60 day vacation, after a Facebook rent about CDC planned attacking of Trump, urging supporters to buy ammunition. These fuckers are planing to kill...

[Themius]

Poll: Support for Black Lives Matter drops 12 points since June

Not surprising...

It isn’t because whites grow complacent and less supportive of issues that don’t support them.

Like slavery and Jim Crow. Same shit.

So what you’re saying here means jack and shit

It’s like Burmese losing interest in rohingya genocide.

[Edge-]

That’s herring meat... as I posted earlier in another thread, one of Trump HHS appointments just took a 60 day vacation, after a Facebook rent about CDC planned attacking of Trump, urging supporters to buy ammunition. These fuckers are planing to kill...

Amusingly, Caputo's rant was in large part about...government scientists being engaged in "sedition". Baader-Meinhof Phenominon seems like it's kicking off.

[downnola]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wi...MW_latest_news

And the law enforcement response continues to be unhinged, especially from the DOJ. AG Barr is name dropping "sedition" in the list of potential charges against protesters, which is patently fuckin ludicrous to the extreme.

It's political red meat, nothing more.

And yet I doubt Roger Stone will face sedition charges, despite openly calling for Trump to stage a coup if he loses the election. You know, literal treason.

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The issue you'll have is that there is essentially no central connective tissue to define "black culture", as distinct from other groups. Even the name; you define it based on color of skin, which has nothing to do with culture in the first place.

That you think "black culture" exists is the problem.

Sort of like how people feel the need to sort crime statistics by "race" and then ramble at length about "black crime rates." Same bullshit, really.

[Edge-]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/n...iel-prude.html



Oh look, Rochester cops engaged in a wide array of tactics to delay and try to hide the death of Daniel Prude after they placed a spit hoot on him and suffocated him to death.

This.
Is.
The.
Fuckin.
Problem.

[Howel]

Poll: Support for Black Lives Matter drops 12 points since June

Not surprising...

Still fairly overwhelmingly supported, except for one group, that also saw the biggest drop. I wonder why...

[Deus Mortis]

Well they released bodycam footage of two Tulsa police officers who were shot(One died). It shows you why cops do not want you squirming around in your car.

Extreme warning on this link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSa2...ctr=1600309425

[Endus]

Well they released bodycam footage of two Tulsa police officers who were shot(One died). It shows you why cops do not want you squirming around in your car.

Extreme warning on this link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSa2...ctr=1600309425

While it's terrible they were shot and I am not going to even suggest that anything in this justified that response from the murderous shooter, a whopping hell of a lot of what went on in the prior 10 minutes was straight abusive.]

He was pulled over because his tags were out of date. That's it. Why the fuck would the two cops escalate that? Why would they escalate the use of force solely because he was not voluntarily compliant? Why would they threaten him with force to try and get him to comply? And so on.

None of that justifies the guy shooting them, but up until that moment, I was on the guy's side. He should've been able to sue over this stop, had he not decided to try and kill two officers. Both these officers should probably have been fired for their conduct in this stop.

If they'd given him a ticket for his tags being out of date, and given him 30 days or whatever to correct that, that should've been the end of this. Guy didn't need to get out of his car for that, and nobody would've gotten hurt. Win/win, no?

And no; situations like this do not provide justification for pre-emptive use of force and abridgement of people's rights and freedoms. If you're going to make me pick which evil I have to support, if it's abusive police officers hurting and killing innocent people out of their own cowardice and fear, or police officers being put at risk by giving citizens the benefit of the doubt, I'm gonna go with the latter.