[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Gorsameth]

Eh wut? The UK doing trade deals needs to be celebrated? I mean it took us a few weeks with Japan, it's no biggie them juicy trade deals will be rolling in monthly from now on. I could understand popping the champagne if we were like the EU doing a trade deal or two roughly every decade - didn't the EU/Mexico deal take like almost 25 years to finalise?

This time next year you'll be masticating on safe chlorinated chicken mark my words.

The Japan deal that says you get the eat the scraps left over by the EU?
And that chicken from a US trade deal you can no longer get because you broke the WA?

Yeah, going great buddy

[Demolitia]

To be fair to Croatia, the presidency doesn't affect the negotiations that much. The EU has had one person responsible for the Brexit negotiations, Barnier, and he will stay in charge until this fiasco is seen to its end, because only then will his mandate end. The Presidency is really more of an administrative post that changes, kind of like the PM or the US presidency, but the big picture politics is made by the member states in the council. And it is them that give out the general route of the EU, regardless of who presides in the council at any particular time. Democracy and all.

Also, during Croatia's time there was "enough time" (albeit still very little) to accomplish something. It's just a coincidence of scheduling that now that time is running out, Germany has the Presidency. The tone would be pretty much the same even if Croatia was still running the Presidency, or Lithuania or Luxembourg...

I didn't mean for Brexit negotiations. The country with the presidency has the opportunity to control the political agenda of the EU if it has enough influence. Croatia didn't have that, but Germany does, so I disagree it's just an administrative post change. It can be a lot more.

[Slant]

Eh wut? The UK doing trade deals needs to be celebrated? I mean it took us a few weeks with Japan, it's no biggie them juicy trade deals will be rolling in monthly from now on. I could understand popping the champagne if we were like the EU doing a trade deal or two roughly every decade - didn't the EU/Mexico deal take like almost 25 years to finalise?

EU and Mexico already had an FTA, what happened now is just an update. And the trade volume is significantly larger than that of the UK. The EU and Japan have created the largest open trade area on the planet, covering about 30% of the global output. So yeah, it takes a bit more time. But hey, good on you for getting the leftovers. That totally took a lot of convincing, I'm sure.

See, the EU could make a trade deal per day if they caved as fast as the UK did. Not exactly an accomplishment to flaunt, if you ask me. But shame has never been a trait of yours.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't mean for Brexit negotiations. The country with the presidency has the opportunity to control the political agenda of the EU if it has enough influence. Croatia didn't have that, but Germany does, so I disagree it's just an administrative post change. It can be a lot more.

Sure, in general that could be said. But I think you're underselling Croatia here. If you follow EU discussions and how they make deals, you'll notice that small countries have a lot of sway based on them making reasonable arguments, not the size of their country. Also, when it comes to big decisions, everyone of them has a veto. It's not as simple as saying "Ooh, look at Germany, they'll get stuff done now!"

Germany is very conscious of its history and usually shows more restraint than other nations, most notably France who will happily take whatever extreme stance they fancy that day.

Germany's biggest strength is the desire and ability to make other people cooperate with each other. Yes, sometimes it helps to be the big boy at the table so you can throw your weight around, but it's smartest to use that influence to get other people to cooperate and carry a unanimous decision rather than get your own way.

I know that's more or less what you said, just wanted to defend Croatia here a bit.

[dribbles]

The Japan deal that says you get the eat the scraps left over by the EU?
And that chicken from a US trade deal you can no longer get because you broke the WA?

Yeah, going great buddy

Mike Pompeo says today "We trust the UK" that'll do for me. Tearing up the brexit WA has made not a jot of difference to the UK's international reputation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54171571

Nom nom nom, bargain buckets of safe and delicious chlorine chicken for all coming soon to a UK store near you!

[Demolitia]

Sure, in general that could be said. But I think you're underselling Croatia here. If you follow EU discussions and how they make deals, you'll notice that small countries have a lot of sway based on them making reasonable arguments, not the size of their country. Also, when it comes to big decisions, everyone of them has a veto. It's not as simple as saying "Ooh, look at Germany, they'll get stuff done now!"

Germany is very conscious of its history and usually shows more restraint than other nations, most notably France who will happily take whatever extreme stance they fancy that day.

Germany's biggest strength is the desire and ability to make other people cooperate with each other. Yes, sometimes it helps to be the big boy at the table so you can throw your weight around, but it's smartest to use that influence to get other people to cooperate and carry a unanimous decision rather than get your own way.

I know that's more or less what you said, just wanted to defend Croatia here a bit.

I guess that's a fair point and I'm being a bit harsh with them. They had a pretty good agenda originally but it got thwarted by the whole covid situation. Still, I think they missed some opportunity to shake things up a bit in their region, and that's a shame.
I also agree that smaller countries definitely have influence too. If anything the last budget negotiations have shown that the frugals and the visegrad group have a lot more powers and leverage than they used too. And gone is the era when if France and Germany decided something, they could bring everybody else into the fold.
Mostly what I meant is not so much that Croatia missed opportunities or did a shit job, but that Germany's Council presidency comes at the perfect time. No other country has the means, manpower, experience and finesse to navigate and push the agenda they are presenting, and that -I think- is sorely needed. France could fill the shoes too, but it's happy enough to play bad cop, which is fine too.

[Gorsameth]

Mike Pompeo says today "We trust the UK" that'll do for me. Tearing up the brexit WA has made not a jot of difference to the UK's international reputation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54171571

Nom nom nom, bargain buckets of safe and delicious chlorine chicken for all coming soon to a UK store near you!

A trade treaty is not up to Mike Pompeo, its up to Congress to approve and the House has said there will be no deal if the UK breaks the WA.

And still ignoring the 'amazing' Japan deal ey.

[Demolitia]

Mike Pompeo says today "We trust the UK" that'll do for me. Tearing up the brexit WA has made not a jot of difference to the UK's international reputation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54171571

Nom nom nom, bargain buckets of safe and delicious chlorine chicken for all coming soon to a UK store near you!

Please drink antibacterial gel. Trump said it's good for you.
[Infraction]

[zealo]

Mike Pompeo says today "We trust the UK" that'll do for me. Tearing up the brexit WA has made not a jot of difference to the UK's international reputation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54171571

Nom nom nom, bargain buckets of safe and delicious chlorine chicken for all coming soon to a UK store near you!

Mike Pompeo is not in any position to force trade deals through a congress that doesn't want to.

All you're saying with that you think that is enough is a display that you're woefully ignorant about the role US congress plays in this.

[Forogil]

A trade treaty is not up to Mike Pompeo, its up to Congress to approve and the House has said there will be no deal if the UK breaks the WA.

There was even in the bbc-link including a signed letter by members of both parties in congress saying:

"Finally, it is necessary for us to emphasize how this issue could directly affect the U.S.-U.K. bilateral relationship even beyond the broad, bipartisan support for the people of Northern Ireland. Many in the United States and in Congress consider the issues of the Good Friday Agreement and a potential U.S.-U.K. Free Trade Agreement inextricably linked.

To that end, we stand by the position made clear by the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives
Nancy Pelosi, who just this month reiterated that the United States Congress will not support any free trade agreement between the United States and the United Kingdom if the United Kingdom fails to preserve the gains of the Good Friday Agreement and broader peace process.

If these reported plans were to go forward, it would be difficult to see how these conditions could be met."

And the full quote from Mike Pompeo didn't even say that everything is ok, but: "We trust the UK, we know the complexities of the situation, I have great confidence they will get this right."

[dribbles]

There was even in the bbc-link including a signed letter by members of both parties in congress saying:

"Finally, it is necessary for us to emphasize how this issue could directly affect the U.S.-U.K. bilateral relationship even beyond the broad, bipartisan support for the people of Northern Ireland. Many in the United States and in Congress consider the issues of the Good Friday Agreement and a potential U.S.-U.K. Free Trade Agreement inextricably linked.

To that end, we stand by the position made clear by the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives
Nancy Pelosi, who just this month reiterated that the United States Congress will not support any free trade agreement between the United States and the United Kingdom if the United Kingdom fails to preserve the gains of the Good Friday Agreement and broader peace process.

If these reported plans were to go forward, it would be difficult to see how these conditions could be met."

And the full quote from Mike Pompeo didn't even say that everything is ok, but: "We trust the UK, we know the complexities of the situation, I have great confidence they will get this right."

It is the EU's WA that is threatening to break the GFA, the sole reason for the UK unilaterally re-writing the WA with the recently published Internal Market Bill is to protect the GFA.

As it existed, until the UK binned it much to the disgust of the EU, the WA alters the constitutional status of Northern Ireland to the right of self determination without reference to the people who live there. The GFA says this cannot be done without the consent of Northern Ireland, and they have not given it. As our man in Brussels tweeted only the other day...

"It is precisely to ensure this balance (the GFA) can be preserved in all circumstances that the Govt needs powers in reserve to avoid it being disrupted."

https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/sta...21858619158529

Once this is clearly explained to our American friends, that it is the UK who is defender of the GFA, those shipments of chicken can begin.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

It is the EU's WA that is threatening to break the GFA, the sole reason for the UK unilaterally re-writing the WA with the recently published Internal Market Bill is to protect the GFA.

As it existed, until the UK binned it much to the disgust of the EU, the WA alters the constitutional status of Northern Ireland to the right of self determination without reference to the people who live there. The GFA says this cannot be done without the consent of Northern Ireland, and they have not given it. As our man in Brussels tweeted only the other day...

"It is precisely to ensure this balance (the GFA) can be preserved in all circumstances that the Govt needs powers in reserve to avoid it being disrupted."

https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/sta...21858619158529

Once this is clearly explained to our American friends, that it is the UK who is defender of the GFA, those shipments of chicken can begin.

Then why did A) the British write the NI bit and B) agree to it? Did the British Government not understand the text it presented to Parliament? Did the government mislead Parliament when the bill was read?

[Forogil]

It is the EU's WA that is threatening to break the GFA, the sole reason for the UK unilaterally re-writing the WA with the recently published Internal Market Bill is to protect the GFA.

War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
...

And even if you were correct the Withdrawal Agreement was signed by the UK.

[Gorsameth]

Then why did A) the British write the NI bit and B) agree to it? Did the British Government not understand the text it presented to Parliament? Did the government mislead Parliament when the bill was read?

I'm sure he is going to pretend like the EU broke their promise to have an honest negotiation and that that is why there is no deal now and why this turns into a problem. So the UK signing this knowing the problems it could cause is somehow not valid.

[Huehuecoyotl]

It is the EU's WA that is threatening to break the GFA, the sole reason for the UK unilaterally re-writing the WA with the recently published Internal Market Bill is to protect the GFA.

As it existed, until the UK binned it much to the disgust of the EU, the WA alters the constitutional status of Northern Ireland to the right of self determination without reference to the people who live there. The GFA says this cannot be done without the consent of Northern Ireland, and they have not given it. As our man in Brussels tweeted only the other day...

"It is precisely to ensure this balance (the GFA) can be preserved in all circumstances that the Govt needs powers in reserve to avoid it being disrupted."

https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/sta...21858619158529

Once this is clearly explained to our American friends, that it is the UK who is defender of the GFA, those shipments of chicken can begin.

I've told you before; wishing something to be a particular way, or "feeling" like it's a particular way, doesn't make it so. Your personal beliefs do not affect reality, regardless of what your mother told you. You can say "the EU is trying to break the GFA" as many times as you like, it's still a bare-faced lie. The WA protects the GFA, and Boris knew that when he signed up to it. He also knew that the only way to protect it and get the "control" back that Brexit was sold on was to put a border in the Irish sea. It was made crystal clear in the run up to signing the WA, regardless of how many times he tried to spin that it wouldn't.

If he wants to back out now, he loses any chance of a deal with the EU. He breaks the GFA. He loses any chance of a deal with the US. Those are facts, and again they aren't dependent on whether you believe them or not. We told you time and time again that Brexit would be a disaster, and you didn't listen. Now we get to see first hand what a giant fuck up it is, and I fully expect you to creep away and remain silent after it does. Because there is zero chance you take the slightest responsibility for this, because people like you never do.

Tick tock, dribbles. The time when this blows up in your face is approaching quickly now.

[zealo]

It is the EU's WA that is threatening to break the GFA, the sole reason for the UK unilaterally re-writing the WA with the recently published Internal Market Bill is to protect the GFA.

As it existed, until the UK binned it much to the disgust of the EU, the WA alters the constitutional status of Northern Ireland to the right of self determination without reference to the people who live there. The GFA says this cannot be done without the consent of Northern Ireland, and they have not given it. As our man in Brussels tweeted only the other day...

"It is precisely to ensure this balance (the GFA) can be preserved in all circumstances that the Govt needs powers in reserve to avoid it being disrupted."

https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/sta...21858619158529

Once this is clearly explained to our American friends, that it is the UK who is defender of the GFA, those shipments of chicken can begin.

The EU isn't the one that is insisting on tearing up an agreement that both:

1)Places the UK outside the single market and customs unions
2)Keeps a hard border from popping up on the island of Ireland.

Both of those are wholly incompatible with each other without placing the border in the Irish sea, something the UK categorically now rejects. Either the UK changes it's mind about what sort of Brexit it wants, or a hard border goes up on Ireland without that part of the WA, harming the peace process.

Trying to pin that on the EU is a bald faced lie that everyone who isn't a Little Englander sees through, including the Yanks, apparently.

[Dhrizzle]

Mike Pompeo says today "We trust the UK" that'll do for me. Tearing up the brexit WA has made not a jot of difference to the UK's international reputation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54171571

Nom nom nom, bargain buckets of safe and delicious chlorine chicken for all coming soon to a UK store near you!

In other words screw the British farmers, they either engage with the US farms in a race to the bottom or go out of business.

[Slant]

I guess that's a fair point and I'm being a bit harsh with them. They had a pretty good agenda originally but it got thwarted by the whole covid situation. Still, I think they missed some opportunity to shake things up a bit in their region, and that's a shame.
I also agree that smaller countries definitely have influence too. If anything the last budget negotiations have shown that the frugals and the visegrad group have a lot more powers and leverage than they used too. And gone is the era when if France and Germany decided something, they could bring everybody else into the fold.
Mostly what I meant is not so much that Croatia missed opportunities or did a shit job, but that Germany's Council presidency comes at the perfect time. No other country has the means, manpower, experience and finesse to navigate and push the agenda they are presenting, and that -I think- is sorely needed. France could fill the shoes too, but it's happy enough to play bad cop, which is fine too.

France and Germany are good at picking their battles. They can still throw their weight around when they need to, but most often that is not necessary. And it always carries the risk of division with it. Poland and Hungary are always happy to oppose. Not a bad thing per se, but there is a time and place to confront them.

- - - Updated - - -

Then why did A) the British write the NI bit and B) agree to it? Did the British Government not understand the text it presented to Parliament? Did the government mislead Parliament when the bill was read?

To add to this, and this may sound very horrible but it is the god honest truth, the EU is not a party to the GFA. By all rights, they have no obligation to even attempt to keep GFA alive. They are being very nice and understanding going as far as they did, but "the EU trying to break the GFA" is very dishonest in that the GFA is legally not any concern of the EU.

The people in Northern Ireland, although not the responsibility of the EU, are still important to people in Brussels. And despite people like Dribbles that would love nothing more than see bloodsheed and deaths in NI, because his contempt for human life in general and his fellow British in particular is very obvious, the EU is trying to bend over backwards to make something work that will keep the peace in NI. Whether that legally breaks the GFA, nobody cares, as long as there is no car bombs.

Bottom line, this is an internal matter of the UK. As such it is the problem of the UK, and the UK only. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if the question becomes whether the EU defends its external borders against untrustworthy rogue nations like the UK or protects UK citizens from purely domestic troubles, the EU should and will not interfere with the sovereignity of the UK and instead make sure its external border is secure against the likes of Dribbles.

[Forogil]

To add to this, and this may sound very horrible but it is the god honest truth, the EU is not a party to the GFA. By all rights, they have no obligation to even attempt to keep GFA alive. They are being very nice and understanding going as far as they did, but "the EU trying to break the GFA" is very dishonest in that the GFA is legally not any concern of the EU.

However, even if EU is not a party of the GFA an EU-country is (Ireland).

And the other parties of GFA simply don't agree that the english are breaking the Withdrawal Agreement to honor the Good Friday Agreement.
That's the thing with Agreements - there are multiple parties to them, and they should agree.

'Trust is fundamental and we're extremely concerned' - Taoiseach to speak with Boris Johnson over Withdrawal Agreement
https://www.independent.ie/business/...-39516790.html

That includes the more violent ones: https://www.sinnfein.ie/ga/contents/58094

Not only do the British government's plans subvert the rule of law and break international agreements, it also undermines the Good Friday Agreement and the political institutions it created.
The legislation proposed by the British government to hollow out the Withdrawal Agreement and Irish Protocol would give British ministers the power to disapply and dismiss the democratic mandate of the Assembly and Executive.

This flies in the face of the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement and has serious implications for its institutions, as well as other devolved institutions elsewhere.

It is ludicrous and farcical for the British government to claim any pretence of acting to protect the Good Friday Agreement.

[tehealadin]

War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
...

And even if you were correct the Withdrawal Agreement was signed by the UK.

It was touted as a victory, an election was won because of it, an oven ready solution. Now it transpires that it was passed due to promises to certain people that there was no intention of sticking to it. The dishonesty of the whole situation is maddening. However, so long as they still plan to stick it to Johnny Foreigner, there will be enough people ok with it. No price is too high.

[dribbles]

The EU isn't the one that is insisting on tearing up an agreement that both:

1)Places the UK outside the single market and customs unions
2)Keeps a hard border from popping up on the island of Ireland.

Both of those are wholly incompatible with each other without placing the border in the Irish sea, something the UK categorically now rejects. Either the UK changes it's mind about what sort of Brexit it wants, or a hard border goes up on Ireland without that part of the WA, harming the peace process.

Trying to pin that on the EU is a bald faced lie that everyone who isn't a Little Englander sees through, including the Yanks, apparently.

Of course the British are not going to allow a foreign power (EU) to annex a part of the UK (N. Ireland) against their will. It is ridiculous the EU think they can run a coach and horses through the GFA breaking it at the same time and upsetting the US as guarantor to the GFA. Who do the EU think they are?

It is not going to happen and Boris is quite right in his actions to prevent it and respect the GFA by ripping up the WA.