I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[united]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

[tamarin]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

"why don't raiders see that": because they are idiots
"and apparently the dev team": because the game director is a raider. see above

[Toybox]

With the M+ cache offering multiple choices & mythic item level loot, in the long run, M+ will result in a better gearset than it currently does as you're a lot more likely to find something useful in your cache each week.

Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear. Otherwise there's no reason to raid and can spam M+ instead.

Well fun is the best reason. Gear is a tool, so honestly, if these changes are enough to put people off doing certain content then they're just not all that into the content in the first place, which is the real discussion to be had here.

[Artale]

Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear. Otherwise there's no reason to raid and can spam M+ instead.

[Kyphael]

I'll tell you what we need. Pet Battle Raids.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I think Raid or die would be if M+ was suddenly removed and those M+ tournaments disappeared at the blink of an eye.

[jellmoo]

Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear. Otherwise there's no reason to raid and can spam M+ instead.

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

[Kralljin]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

Because of how M+ works, it doesn't work.

M+ offers a massive lootpool (virtually any item that drops off a 5man boss), which gives you almost any potential stat combination (which is the only value items have besides raw Ilvl), can be repeated as many times as you like and is on top of that far easier to organize than raids.

In comparison, PvP used to work off a weekly Arena / Conquest points, those essentially emulated the weekly lockout of raids, M+ however is a "shake as often as you like" type of source that can give a decent item for virtually any slot.

M+ cannot coexist in its current form alongside raiding or PvP unless you bring back game mode specific stats, it quite frankly resembles something that belongs into a Loot shooter or ARPG, not an MMORPG that has everything else based on weekly lockouts.

[SirBeef]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

While I don't disagree, what do you need the best gear if you are not tackling the best content. Like if you are not raiding you don't need anything higher than LFR. While some may do high M+, you don't need raid gear for that either, sure it helps, but it's not needed. Same with PvP, and people just doing WQs.

[TheLucky1]

How is SL raid or die?

Because you can't spam m+ for the best gear?
Wod had a ton of other problems and is not really comparable, nice cherrypicking...

[Nevcairiel]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

M+ end of dungeon rewards are spammable, limited only by your time. Therefor, if they are equal or even better then most raid gear (at least heroic), it'll always be better then raiding. M+ largely devalued heroic raiding in BfA - Legion at least still had sets.

Its funny how M+ fans are fine with devaluing heroic raiding, but if a few item levels are taken out of M+, the sky is falling.

At the end of the day (or M+ season), this change won't actually change much for M+ players. The weekly reward is still on a Mythic raiding level. And with the new 3 possible choices, gearing through the weekly chest is far more reliable and deterministic then it used to be - while keeping heroic raid gearing more relevant during the beginning of a season.

[Delever]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

We have literally never had more paths to gear from than now. M+ awards ilvl on the same level as a mythic raid with a loot table so large that you are guaranteed to have BiS from that alone. Especially now that there is no rng. The only advantages mythic raiders have are:

1.) They can get the highest ilvl faster due to possibly getting multiple ilvl rewards a week instead of 1
2.) The last 2 bosses award higher ilvl gear. Just 2 bosses thats literally it.

For the love of god I think people who have that skill and time should AT LEAST get the highest ilvl faster.
In the past people couldnt even get close to the highest ilvl without raiding.

- - - Updated - - -

M+ end of dungeon rewards are spammable, limited only by your time. Therefor, if they are equal or even better then most raid gear (at least heroic), it'll always be better then raiding. M+ largely devalued heroic raiding in BfA - Legion at least still had sets.

Its funny how M+ fans are fine with devaluing heroic raiding, but if a few item levels are taken out of M+, the sky is falling.

At the end of the day (or M+ season), this change won't actually change much for M+ players. The weekly reward is still on a Mythic raiding level. And with the new 3 possible choices, gearing through the weekly chest is far more reliable and deterministic then it used to be - while keeping heroic raid gearing more relevant during the beginning of a season.

Could not have said it better

[BloodSense]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

Because the top 1% of players get absolutely butthurt if they cant look down on every other player in the game. It has been that way since vanilla, and that definitely isn't going to change with an Elitest Jerk at the helm. The entire game is balanced around mythic raiding and hardcore competetive PvP which is content the vast majority of the player base will never see. I spent vanilla, and the first two expansions as a hardcore progression raider and the eventual decision to take my guild in a casual raiding direction by the end of wrath was partly due to the absolute shit attitudes of some of the players on my raid team.

I've long surrounded myself with the caliber of players who genuinely care about their performance and what they bring to the group. The type of people who will sit down with simcraft and spread sheets and min/max to the nines, plan m+ runs down to the pull, and sit down and watch 2 hours of raid videos before even setting foot into a new encounter. The idea that there is a portion of the player base who believe people like that are "casual" and don't deserve access to top tier gear, mounts, cosmetics, etc. because they refuse to sacrifice time with their family and friends to sit in front of a monitor for five nights a week is astonishing. A title and an achievement used to be enough for most people, now if you don't get an armor set with unique models and effects, unique mounts and quicker access to whatever borrowed power the current expansion is based on, the loudest voices in the game start screaming that the devs don't care about the hardcore player base.

[Queen of Hamsters]

If you don't think that they're well aware of which kind of player pays the bills, you're delusional.
If they then spend loads of resources on raiding, perhaps it's more for the LFR majority than the organized minority.

Edit: Ah, it's a "muh M+!"-whine and dine, carry on.

[Khallid]

With the M+ cache offering multiple choices & mythic item level loot, in the long run, M+ will result in a better gearset than it currently does as you're a lot more likely to find something useful in your cache each week.

Not quite. The weekly cache won't be exclusive to M+ in Shadowlands anymore. So more choices is true, but it being tied to M+ is not true. You can get that gear from the weekly cache by doing PvP, Mythic+ or Raids. So raiders still have the advantage as they can get more choices out of the weekly cache.

[Kaver]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

M+ is dropping 3 ilvls below heroic which is completely fine and you will most likely get a piece of useful mythic gear each week. I really don’t see the problem.

- - - Updated - - -

Not quite. The weekly cache won't be exclusive to M+ in Shadowlands anymore. So more choices is true, but it being tied to M+ is not true. You can get that gear from the weekly cache by doing PvP, Mythic+ or Raids. So raiders still have the advantage as they can get more choices out of the weekly cache.

Assuming that the raiders also do M+ which means they are doing more content than people who only do M+.

[FelPlague]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

Mythic plus is infinite
raiding is not
mythic plus therefore should not be equal, or even better then raiding.

if you could get infinite loot from raiding sure.


Imagine if you used this same argument for world quests.

[Kaver]

M+ end of dungeon rewards are spammable, limited only by your time. Therefor, if they are equal or even better then most raid gear (at least heroic), it'll always be better then raiding. M+ largely devalued heroic raiding in BfA - Legion at least still had sets.

Its funny how M+ fans are fine with devaluing heroic raiding, but if a few item levels are taken out of M+, the sky is falling.

At the end of the day (or M+ season), this change won't actually change much for M+ players. The weekly reward is still on a Mythic raiding level. And with the new 3 possible choices, gearing through the weekly chest is far more reliable and deterministic then it used to be - while keeping heroic raid gearing more relevant during the beginning of a season.

Exactly. And some gear slots will already be filled by legendaries. There is nothing to worry about. No need to start a shitshow.

[Toybox]

Not quite. The weekly cache won't be exclusive to M+ in Shadowlands anymore. So more choices is true, but it being tied to M+ is not true. You can get that gear from the weekly cache by doing PvP, Mythic+ or Raids. So raiders still have the advantage as they can get more choices out of the weekly cache.

Assuming that the raiders also do M+ which means they are doing more content than people who only do M+.

Pretty much, which means they get more choices. Seems fair to me.

Raids are also dropping less loot as well if I remember right, so it is just a slowing down of the gearing pace across the game, which is fine in my opinion.

[Kaver]

Not quite. The weekly cache won't be exclusive to M+ in Shadowlands anymore. So more choices is true, but it being tied to M+ is not true. You can get that gear from the weekly cache by doing PvP, Mythic+ or Raids. So raiders still have the advantage as they can get more choices out of the weekly cache.

Do we know what ilvl a heroic raider will get in the weekly chest in the raid bracket? I’m not sure they will be able to pick mythic level gear in that bracket. Meanwhile in the M+ bracket of the weekly chest you get mythic level gear just by completing a +14 key.