The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

[Mace]

Hi all. This is for all and especially @ravenmoon @EnigmAddict , @Tanaria and @Alanar.

I’ve not fully caught up on the topic. But here are my thoughts so far.

Progressing Night Elves - Short Version
Depends if blizzard want to focus on races

Also if they want to tell two independent stories for the faction races where the only interaction is conflict or they want to tell a realistic intertwined story that takes advantage of the the fact this is one race in two strains touching each faction and beyond when you include the neutral organisations and non faction playable ones like Illidari.


But it’s my opinion Night elves are worth a full focus. Because of how broad and rich their story and make up is. Only a handful of races warrant full focus. Humans, Orcs, Night elves. Recently, Blood elves, Trolls and Dwarves. Everyone else is support with a smaller niche story. Draenei and Pandas could grow if blizz desired to do an 8 major race focus. - but the rest are full support.


And I mean the whole Night elf package, wood elf portion is not unique enough or interesting enough for singular race focus approach. It’s okay if the alliance is the story or all the elf races are one story, but not enough for the Night elf group as a major race campaign and focus.

I’m okay with Darnassians largely being wood elf side of the Kaldorei and Nightborne being arcane side, but only when together they form a whole and not at the expense of Illidari or Highborne who should have roles.

Highborne could play a bridging role of the stories of the two races as a whole. But if they are faction separate then Highborne roles must grow to represent the arcane heritage and half of the Kaldorei while Nightborne either tell a different version of the same story but for horde fans. Or they become something entirely different (which really defeats why they were intro’d imo)

Depends on What They Wanted The Allied Elf races for
It all depends on what blizzard want to do. I assumed the good advantage of void elves alliance and Nightborne horde was to bring popularly desired Thalassian story home to playable folk on the alliance and Kaldorei stories open up to also include horde respectively.

Not for them to be totally new races. Just very minor variations of the blood elves and night elves with a unique twist but bringing the heart , essence and feel of those popular races home to the other faction given their popularity and demand.

What They Bring to the Table
It makes sense that void elves are void focus instead of light for a variation on the blood elf flavour. But blizzard must note they don’t eliminate the desire or need for the high elf. and Nightborne have chronomancers and arcane heavy focus but haven’t stopped the desire for Nightborne druids or Kaldorei Highborne.

But do note the differences aren’t identical, they don’t need to be. Blood elves don’t have a void thing but night elves very much have an arcane thing. Just that the Nightborne show it much more. This shows the two major elf groups are their own thing not converse mirrors of each other.

It’s better this way. Night elf fan base have different expectations from Thalassians and blizz gave them very independent and diverging storIED. Night elves span a 15 k year period focusing on issues they wrote I. Specifically for their race concerning their arcane talent and nature love. While Thalassians story is the last 7k years heavily involving EK affairs, horde and alliance, trolls and their own issues. They are not supposed to be converse mirrors but separate distinct groups with a connection to each other but otherwise their own distinct elven people. Note that they both have extensive lore so they work better as two different stories of distinct elf races rather than as a combined whole. Nightborne are part of that Night elf narrative and void elves that Thalassian narrative and while void elves can befriend night elves and nightborne befriend blood elves - one is clearly night group the other Thalassian.

But that is just my opinion based on how they have been written and presented so far.

That is the heart of the swap I felt. Which is why I do feel Nightborne priests are Elune priests and they will get druids, but those won’t be as major in them as in the Darnassians just s the arcane isn’t as major in the Darnassians as it is.

Possibility as Independents
Blizzard however might want to grow void elves and Nightborne into full races like the core races. They will always be elves and tied to their cores cos that was their main thing. But they could develop totally independent and become other things. However the worse would be for void elves to become human lackey sidekicks and Nightborne blood elf ones. It’s boring and a waste. Also given the elf fatigue going around. To be honest these two really work as part of the full story of their core counterpart on the opposite faction like an interesting mix, new flavour rather than A full elf race hugging the limelight from other core races.

The story of the Night group of elves should be all the night elf groups with the Darnassians and Shalassians the main stars as they are the faction representatives , but other groups have their place and extend that story.

The story of the void elves is not an independent side race, but part of the story of the Thalassian elves that stars both the void/high elves on the Allari a very and the blood elves on the horde with other non faction groups like San’layn , fel elves , wretched etc playing minor roles.

[Alanar]

Hello mace,

This is what I am reading..

Blablabla
I want nightborne or atleast options to look like that on the alliance
Blablabla

Thanks for reading.

If you havent following the thread.. which is weird, but why not read up a little and find out your points have been discussed again with the same response.

Nightborne are their own thing and void elves are there own thing. Let it rest.

Night elves are getting more and more their own thing and shadowlands with prove that to you. The hard truth and I agree with that vision is that Nightborne are part of the horde now. There are no reasons besides your own vision that they should be friends with night elves. As of now they have 1 single thing in common and thats the word night in their name.

No offense, but you should read the few pages like maybe 2
.. (the thread is pretty dead) there is just no ground realy for your vision right now. Maybe shadowlands will suprise us with new nightborne night elf lore, but I wouldnt count on it.

[Mace]

Hello mace,

This is what I am reading..

Blablabla
I want nightborne or atleast options to look like that on the alliance
Blablabla

Thanks for reading.

If you havent following the thread.. which is weird, but why not read up a little and find out your points have been discussed again with the same response.

Nightborne are their own thing and void elves are there own thing. Let it rest.

Night elves are getting more and more their own thing and shadowlands with prove that to you. The hard truth and I agree with that vision is that Nightborne are part of the horde now. There are no reasons besides your own vision that they should be friends with night elves. As of now they have 1 single thing in common and thats the word night in their name.

No offense, but you should read the few pages like maybe 2
.. (the thread is pretty dead) there is just no ground realy for your vision right now. Maybe shadowlands will suprise us with new nightborne night elf lore, but I wouldnt count on it.

That makes no sense to me. Where did you get “I want Nightborne” from all that? Don’t we already have Nightborne?

Perhaps I should have block quoted what I was specifically responding too.

My response here was merely outlining the paths that would frame what blizzard would do with the race which I narrow down to two main approaches in response to Enigmaddicts concept piece on how he feels they should go and you, Tanaria and Ravenmoon responses.

I was merely weighing in, not asking for anything.

[Alanar]

That makes no sense to me. Where did you get “I want Nightborne” from all that? Don’t we already have Nightborne?

Perhaps I should have block quoted what I was specifically responding too.

My response here was merely outlining the paths that would frame what blizzard would do with the race which I narrow down to two main approaches in response to Enigmaddicts concept piece on how he feels they should go and you, Tanaria and Ravenmoon responses.

I was merely weighing in, not asking for anything.

Right so Yea I was off here and was hinting at the bridge you were talking about. The bridge are the highborne and that comes back to the innitial suggestion.. going back to the costumizations you and raven came up with.. which is indirectly suggesting nightborne star options blabla. Like I kinda allready saw it play out. Msybe I was to quick idk depends what your goal is with that bridge.

I just dissagree with the vision that we should close that cap for unknown reasons between night elves and nigtborne. They are seperate for a reason. I also dont know what your point is with void elves befriending night elves.. are there known close relationships between the to that I am unaware off? Or what was the point?

Yea I know and i already commented on that.

[Mace]

I just dissagree with the vision that we should close that cap for unknown reasons between night elves and nigtborne. They are seperate for a reason. I also dont know what your point is with void elves befriending night elves.. are there known close relationships between the to that I am unaware off? Or what was the point?

Yea I know and i already commented on that.

As is your right, your desired option is one of the approaches I mentioned, as is Enigmaddict's, it boils down to what blizzard want to do and how they want to proceed with the vision of the races. Some want more racial involvement, some are okay with factions as they are, either route has approaches they could take, which boils down to more involvement or less involvement, depending on what they want to see or how they envision it.

I gave an evaluation considering these options with my opinion added based on what I felt was their original intent, but such can change. Sure Nightborne can be totally independent, or very intertwined with night elves (either Darnassians or others). I feel it would be somewhere in the middle, because allied races even void elves/Nightborne were not created as independent new races separate from their cores, but being on the other faction and being a recognisable race allows for that to happen. but ehy , maybe you just hate the idea of any horde race getting along with any race associated with the alliance, but the reality of the story is that every race has faction related groups and non-faction ones, and everyone is connected, not just on faction basis, although that currently dominates.

Take this example. If they go off independent, the core of the void elves is still Thalasisan, and the core o ft he Nightbonre is still Kaldorei. - whether they want to play to that core or change it, and on either option have involvement with blood elves (for void elves) and night elves (for Nightborne), are the decisions that they must make. But then is your objection tot he core of what races like Nightborne or void elves are part off or is it interacting with the other faction elves? Cos they aren't the only elves of that race available for meaningful stories.

In a scenario where you do something like racial campaigns, a focus on races, it's realistic to expect that the stories of several races would be intertwined into one campaign within faction lines- they will not do 23 different ones for each race. It will likely be single digit number of campaigns, but each would have a section totally dedicated to the race.

But then racial focus may never happen and blizzard continue on only identifying, portraying and writing the races going forward through the lens of the faction - and that would most likely mean no positive cross faction interactions like Enig is talking about, but that position can change especially if they want to make things more interesting. Who knows what they'd do... some people want more race action some don't care. We'll just have to see

You want them totally separate, he wants them intertwined, everyone wants varying degrees - I guess it comes down to your personal preferences, but ultimately it's theirs that will make it in game. It's hard to see Nightborne not have any night elf (race) interaction though, they are on the broken isles afterall with an intertwined racial legacy, but don't confuse night elf race with Darnassian faction, it's quite possible for them to have no Darnassian interaction, (different continent), however unless a radical change tot he broken isles happens, yeh, you'd have Nightborne and night elves interacting.

[Tanaria]

You want them totally separate, he wants them intertwined, everyone wants varying degrees - I guess it comes down to your personal preferences, but ultimately it's theirs that will make it in game. It's hard to see Nightborne not have any night elf (race) interaction though, they are on the broken isles afterall with an intertwined racial legacy, but don't confuse night elf race with Darnassian faction, it's quite possible for them to have no Darnassian interaction, (different continent), however unless a radical change tot he broken isles happens, yeh, you'd have Nightborne and night elves interacting.

But in the same breathe;
It's hard to see no HMT and Nightborne interaction as they are also on the Broken Isles.
It's hard to see no Blood Elf and Nightborne interaction as the Nightborne can be seen in Silvermoon City.

In a scenario where you do something like racial campaigns, a focus on races, it's realistic to expect that the stories of several races would be intertwined into one campaign within faction lines- they will not do 23 different ones for each race. It will likely be single digit number of campaigns, but each would have a section totally dedicated to the race.

But racial campaigns are already being done with the heritage armor questlines.
It can't extend beyond that because you can't base an expansion around a few races at a time. It would be beyond boring.

These things only work with a larger theme going on. In the case of the heritage armors, it was done within a faction war story. The main point of 8.1 was about Jaina attacking Dazar'alor and the night elves retaking Darkshore as well as more story surrounding Saurfang. The Blood Elves and Dwarves' heritage armors were secondary desires.

[Beloren]

But racial campaigns are already being done with the heritage armor questlines.
It can't extend beyond that because you can't base an expansion around a few races at a time. It would be beyond boring.

Respectfully, if heritage quest lines were the extent of further blood elf stories and serious development. I’d be disappointed.

Showing up with respect to the horde has not been anywhere near enough for me. To only see blood elves through the lens of the horde, very little expansion and depth of their theme. It’s not enough for me, by a long shot.

If they could do 13 classes and 4 factions like they did in Covenants, they can do much more towards races.


@Mace they are too simplistic and not even in a good way. It’s rarrrgh I hate alliance and I hate horde, no nuance, worse currently it’s as if we are playing two races or two empires. Racial identity and individuality is being eroded. Everyone operates with respect to the faction and only shows up meaningfully in that capacity.

They all defines themselves by it and it’s so silly, how can ancient and brightly intelligent races like Elves, Deaenei, Zandalari be so swept up completely with this?

It’s too narrow the world feels far too contrived.

I conclude that I have far outgrown the Warcraft story It hasn’t built satisfactorily enough for me.

But I still have fond memories and find attachments.

[Mace]

But in the same breathe;
It's hard to see no HMT and Nightborne interaction as they are also on the Broken Isles.
It's hard to see no Blood Elf and Nightborne interaction as the Nightborne can be seen in Silvermoon City.

I would say it would be silly not to. But yes. 7.0 was entirely a night elf affair, and 7.1 was half night elf , half blood elf, - so it would be nice to see them interacting with Highmountain to, though we haven't seen that happen. Blood elves yes.

- - - Updated - - -

@Mace they are too simplistic and not even in a good way. It’s rarrrgh I hate alliance and I hate horde, no nuance, worse currently it’s as if we are playing two races or two empires. Racial identity and individuality is being eroded. Everyone operates with respect to the faction and only shows up meaningfully in that capacity.

They all defines themselves by it and it’s so silly, how can ancient and brightly intelligent races like Elves, Deaenei, Zandalari be so swept up completely with this?

It’s too narrow the world feels far too contrived.

I conclude that I have far outgrown the Warcraft story It hasn’t built satisfactorily enough for me.

But I still have fond memories and find attachments.

I think we need to be a bit realistic, faction fighting is really what the game is about. And if blizzard only want to focus on the game, this is all you can realistically get and be happy for all the extra lore material so far.

Personally, I agree with you for more race stuff, it's interesting for sure - but the game isn't likely going to be the place for it. Books - like that Traveller series, and TV series are good candidates to show a lot of that detail. A band of young adventurers going through different places in Azeroth on an adventure.

Or they can switch to short stories, mini episodes about 4-5 long, that focus on a race.

In game, can do a race campaign for sure, if they wanted to, it would be a huge undertaking to be amazing, otherwise it would be rubbish - so they'd have to wager on it being as high in demand as you seem to think or want.

[Alanar]

As is your right, your desired option is one of the approaches I mentioned, as is Enigmaddict's, it boils down to what blizzard want to do and how they want to proceed with the vision of the races. Some want more racial involvement, some are okay with factions as they are, either route has approaches they could take, which boils down to more involvement or less involvement, depending on what they want to see or how they envision it.

I gave an evaluation considering these options with my opinion added based on what I felt was their original intent, but such can change. Sure Nightborne can be totally independent, or very intertwined with night elves (either Darnassians or others). I feel it would be somewhere in the middle, because allied races even void elves/Nightborne were not created as independent new races separate from their cores, but being on the other faction and being a recognisable race allows for that to happen. but ehy , maybe you just hate the idea of any horde race getting along with any race associated with the alliance, but the reality of the story is that every race has faction related groups and non-faction ones, and everyone is connected, not just on faction basis, although that currently dominates.

Take this example. If they go off independent, the core of the void elves is still Thalasisan, and the core o ft he Nightbonre is still Kaldorei. - whether they want to play to that core or change it, and on either option have involvement with blood elves (for void elves) and night elves (for Nightborne), are the decisions that they must make. But then is your objection tot he core of what races like Nightborne or void elves are part off or is it interacting with the other faction elves? Cos they aren't the only elves of that race available for meaningful stories.

In a scenario where you do something like racial campaigns, a focus on races, it's realistic to expect that the stories of several races would be intertwined into one campaign within faction lines- they will not do 23 different ones for each race. It will likely be single digit number of campaigns, but each would have a section totally dedicated to the race.

But then racial focus may never happen and blizzard continue on only identifying, portraying and writing the races going forward through the lens of the faction - and that would most likely mean no positive cross faction interactions like Enig is talking about, but that position can change especially if they want to make things more interesting. Who knows what they'd do... some people want more race action some don't care. We'll just have to see

You want them totally separate, he wants them intertwined, everyone wants varying degrees - I guess it comes down to your personal preferences, but ultimately it's theirs that will make it in game. It's hard to see Nightborne not have any night elf (race) interaction though, they are on the broken isles afterall with an intertwined racial legacy, but don't confuse night elf race with Darnassian faction, it's quite possible for them to have no Darnassian interaction, (different continent), however unless a radical change tot he broken isles happens, yeh, you'd have Nightborne and night elves interacting.

Well what blizzards wants to do is something that can said about anything realy.. so what is the point in discussing anything?

Sure I think everyone wants more racial focus, a common request and a fair one. That doesnt mean we need to force relationships that dont realy make sense. Example: night elf/nightborne. Its just something blizzard will likely not do looking at the current lore we have.

Like I said they are seperate for a reason and also like you said.. its wow. The Nzoth or garrosh fight of this world were we need to help eachother is my least favorite aproach for that matter. I rather like to see their stories being developed as their own thing instead needing to fall back on elves on the other faction. They need their own identity and I think that goal worked out fine now that thalyssra is part of the horde council.

I repeat again.. there are no lore reasons or hooks to go by your vision to intertwine anything. They used to be night elves.. they are no longer part of it. It seems like you dont realy understand what that means. No one is waiting for night elves in suramar. Nightborne accroding to blizzard are their own race now with differnt motives etc. Night elves are if you like it or not the forest elves/warden/nightwarrior/druid elves. Arcane is a lost herritage that I made a suggestion about.

It was about the highborne trying to get more political power now that tyrande is busy in shadowlands, my only argument was: how much power would they even have? I think most elves still dont like them.. they came back in cata and still never managed to do anything big in their community, if they wanted to do that( your argument) they would have already done something. For me afther all these years introducing the nightborne, gives us a pretty clear picture where their ideas lie.

[Mace]

Well what blizzards wants to do is something that can said about anything realy.. so what is the point in discussing anything?

Sure I think everyone wants more racial focus, a common request and a fair one. That doesnt mean we need to force relationships that dont realy make sense. Example: night elf/nightborne. Its just something blizzard will likely not do looking at the current lore we have.

Like I said they are seperate for a reason and also like you said.. its wow. The Nzoth or garrosh fight of this world were we need to help eachother is my least favorite aproach for that matter. I rather like to see their stories being developed as their own thing instead needing to fall back on elves on the other faction. They need their own identity and I think that goal worked out fine now that thalyssra is part of the horde council.

Not my vision to intertwine anything, I predic this is what would happen given the trend, and offer my opinion on it. Enig is giving a vision, Raven does that a lot I mostly chime in with my opinion if I like it or not.

Ofc I don't know if it would go that the way of their visions or yours, or mine, but this is why I remind everyone, that the deicison is blizzard's and they will go according to that. That's why I mention that btw.

I'll be honest, I would probably enjoy any direction they go if they did it in a way I like - obvious huh, but whether it's develop them separately or intertwine them to me, fine, whatever, as long as what I get excites me about night elves and brings the fantasy.

I did that massive post in the lroe forum to frame what the night elf lore was, not give my vision of it's future, I do take a punt at what it could be and what I'd like it to be, but turst me, I'm not as fixed on that as the essay length might suggest. I want fantasy, wonder, quality, - I don't want night elves being wiped out and diminished persistently, I prefer relevance and character and a long goal development - that I can get excited about.. and I can tlel you this, night elves continuing in the Long Vigil emergency state is not exciting, that story was over in WC3, night elves being wiped out constaly and losing, is not exciting.

There is much wonder I their lroe in both their eras, and so much not shown where they can tell more storiesbased on their character and politics and show much more.

I appreciate when this is done well, based on the lore I liked rather than just dropped in with no context. But that's all my opinion.

I repeat again.. there are no lore reasons or hooks to go by your vision to intertwine anything. They used to be night elves.. they are no longer part of it. It seems like you dont realy understand what that means. No one is waiting for night elves in suramar. Nightborne accroding to blizzard are their own race now with differnt motives etc. Night elves are if you like it or not the forest elves/warden/nightwarrior/druid elves. Arcane is a lost herritage that I made a suggestion about.

It was about the highborne trying to get more political power now that tyrande is busy in shadowlands, my only argument was: how much power would they even have? I think most elves still dont like them.. they came back in cata and still never managed to do anything big in their community, if they wanted to do that( your argument) they would have already done something. For me afther all these years introducing the nightborne, gives us a pretty clear picture where their ideas lie.[/

I'll be honest here, I like your suggestion, I also like Enigmaddicts, I also like Ravenmoon's, I haven't had a chance to say this cos usually people are nitpicking at why someone's idea won't work and I end up getting swept up in it (usually defending, especially if I like It), it's silly to nitpick an idea or vision of a person - what's the point, they have no power to bring their vision to reality, it's just talk that can neither be proved nor disproved, blizzard decides everything, we can only comment on whether we like or not, and while we can nitpick, at the end of the day we have no idea what can happen and anything can happen, talking about liklihoods and probabilities is even more irrelevant than the whole fake fantasy of this world, making it even more of a waste of time, in the past I would be swept up in that. No more.

I will commend you for your frankness, though, you didn't nitpick, but honestly stated you didn't like it or want it, and stated instead what you would like to see. I can respect that.

[Beloren]

@Mace

I would say in Night elf society, mages are generally viewed as a bad thing.

This doesn't mean they are bad, but in night elf history, the worse things have happened because of magecraft, even though it also brought the best things. Nearly destroying the world kinda sticks ab it longer than having a utopic advanced magical society that had eliminated hunger, want and reliance on material things. Even though it was benevolent, the use led to corruption and opened the door to the legion. I don't think all kaldorei would ever overcome that.

This is not the case in the Nightborne, partly because they didn't have to live in a post sundering world, so they don't view magic like that.


This is okay. It's okay for kaldorei generally to have a greater magic suspicion/phobia or anti-stance. This is what we must accept. It's not in all kaldorei, the Highborne would be different, so would the Illidari night elves and other independent groups like the Moonguard, but they are the minority, the majority would have a society that isn't embracing of it's former ways, even though they've accepted Highborne and the arcnae back, and they are naturally talented for it, probably the most talented.

It gives them a different flavour, but still allows you to be able to play an A-grade mage as a night elf if that is what you want. Non one doubts that your magical ability is as good as any, you have the worlds' greatest magical masters and it's historically most advanced magical society in your repertoire, it's just that currently, your people aren't warm to it, and generally don't like it. They're not wow'd by the fancy things it can do (they've been there, and it got tarnished by the Legion that such things drew - and got use to living a more natural life).

This is how I view them now. And i think this is okay. they don't have to be a Nightborne/pre-sundering type civilization, blizzard doesn't have to develop that for them, a small Highborne district in their new city is enough, and Highborne working in Nightborne areas/pursuits of elven civilization is far more appropriate since they carry that mantle now.

What do you think of this summary? I think it is better here than in a new topic. Let me hear your thoughts: Also (@Aucald , @Tanaria , @Frotenac , @Pheraz , @MyWholeLifeIsThunder and @Astranea). p.s @ravenmoon - are you and your brother happy about this explanation?

[Pheraz]

@Mace

I would say in Night elf society, mages are generally viewed as a bad thing.

This doesn't mean they are bad, but in night elf history, the worse things have happened because of magecraft, even though it also brought the best things. Nearly destroying the world kinda sticks ab it longer than having a utopic advanced magical society that had eliminated hunger, want and reliance on material things. Even though it was benevolent, the use led to corruption and opened the door to the legion. I don't think all kaldorei would ever overcome that.

This is not the case in the Nightborne, partly because they didn't have to live in a post sundering world, so they don't view magic like that.


This is okay. It's okay for kaldorei generally to have a greater magic suspicion/phobia or anti-stance. This is what we must accept. It's not in all kaldorei, the Highborne would be different, so would the Illidari night elves and other independent groups like the Moonguard, but they are the minority, the majority would have a society that isn't embracing of it's former ways, even though they've accepted Highborne and the arcnae back, and they are naturally talented for it, probably the most talented.

It gives them a different flavour, but still allows you to be able to play an A-grade mage as a night elf if that is what you want. Non one doubts that your magical ability is as good as any, you have the worlds' greatest magical masters and it's historically most advanced magical society in your repertoire, it's just that currently, your people aren't warm to it, and generally don't like it. They're not wow'd by the fancy things it can do (they've been there, and it got tarnished by the Legion that such things drew - and got use to living a more natural life).

This is how I view them now. And i think this is okay. they don't have to be a Nightborne/pre-sundering type civilization, blizzard doesn't have to develop that for them, a small Highborne district in their new city is enough, and Highborne working in Nightborne areas/pursuits of elven civilization is far more appropriate since they carry that mantle now.

What do you think of this summary? I think it is better here than in a new topic. Let me hear your thoughts: Also (@Aucald , @Tanaria , @Frotenac , @Pheraz , @MyWholeLifeIsThunder and @Astranea). p.s @ravenmoon - are you and your brother happy about this explanation?

Good summary!

My problem with night elves and magic is how it was done in WoW. Prior to cataclysm it was: no arcane magic allowed! But then also "moon"magic is half arcane ... So... I don't know. This whole thing is so inconsistent and basically only Tyrande burns in fury when someone mentions mages, that I think it's good that they are mixing up night elves traditional theme with the highborne theme. It doesn't need to be 100% high borne like night borne, but 50% would be totally fine imo. It was inconsistent anyways /shrug

[Beloren]

Good summary!

My problem with night elves and magic is how it was done in WoW. Prior to cataclysm it was: no arcane magic allowed! But then also "moon"magic is half arcane ... So... I don't know. This whole thing is so inconsistent and basically only Tyrande burns in fury when someone mentions mages, that I think it's good that they are mixing up night elves traditional theme with the highborne theme. It doesn't need to be 100% high borne like night borne, but 50% would be totally fine imo. It was inconsistent anyways /shrug

It certainly is convoluted, but as we keep getting reminded by opening narrative - they're enigmatic - I think they are meant to appear that way on the surface, so you have to dig deeper - this assumes ofc an intelligent rational behind the whole night elf thing.

I would say that while Moon/Star magic is arcane in nature, it's not considered the same as magecraft - i think night elves would tie magecraft to arrogant, hubris uses of the Well of Eternity - high level advanced magic that does more than useful things like build cities - but great wonders, and also a lot of un-necessary wonder too, which is just showing off and down right un-necessary substitution for natural living.

So, personally I think this is what they shun - and moon/star magic falls out of that purview - it is combat orientated, but I can imagine non-combat uses would be based on things like teleportation calculation, astrological implications for people's lives and destiny (which is the spiritual side to it) - like really useful stuff that isn't over the top.

And so while arcnae it's fine.. it's probably what magecraft became to the night elf that they abhor - over-abundant decadence, soo much it just seemed an abuse of the arcane rather than use, and they can always point to the legion as the evidence that his is wrong or un-necessary.

How they map the current Highborne would be interesting - same with the nightborne who have come off addiction - I guess you will see much more liberal use of the arcane amongst nightborne, not crazy stupid like before, but a lot more, meanwhile, the Highborne i suspect would be far more focused than indulgent.. they will have a lot of new Darnassians or Highborne that had stayed with the Long Vigil, and their influence as well as snoopy sentinels and druids would probably cut a lot all the fluff out.

I also suspect they would have a lot more nature/arcane collaboration, while that would be less in the Nightborne - I do think the nightborne would have nature stuff going on because of the Arcan'dor, Valewalker Farodin and the Val'sharah druids, but it would be minor, just like the arcane is a much smaller portion of current Darnassian society.

This would be my guess.

[Ardenaso]

Good summary!

My problem with night elves and magic is how it was done in WoW. Prior to cataclysm it was: no arcane magic allowed! But then also "moon"magic is half arcane ... So... I don't know. This whole thing is so inconsistent and basically only Tyrande burns in fury when someone mentions mages, that I think it's good that they are mixing up night elves traditional theme with the highborne theme. It doesn't need to be 100% high borne like night borne, but 50% would be totally fine imo. It was inconsistent anyways /shrug

which is weird given that Tyrande is friends with the Alliance Expedition leader who is an Arcane mage herself, on the said expedition who literally had High Elves and Human Mages

and then they shared room with an alien race that are also Arcane practitioners

[CheckThyself]

I'm a big fan of the nightborne!
Was never really a big fan of the night elves but I like the unique approach of arcane magic more or less evolving night elves into nightborne. Now all of my main horde characters are nightborne

[Beloren]

I'm a big fan of the nightborne!
Was never really a big fan of the night elves but I like the unique approach of arcane magic more or less evolving night elves into nightborne. Now all of my main horde characters are nightborne

It is just a physical appearance change, they are actually pre-sundering night elves - their arcane ways and practices are the ones dropped aside by the Darnassians, but still continued in the Highborne/Moonguard and now mainly the Nightborne.

The Nightborne is the biggest community of them, obviously having a huge city, this is more than can be said for the Highborne from Eldre'thalas who are now homeless and the Moonguard who only have stronghold which was part of the Suramar HQ of the Moonguard for the region anyway.

As such it's the nightborne that carry on this part of hte pre-sundering kaldorei. While you can play in that vein as a Highborne night elf - cos you legitimately are one of those pre-sundering orientated night elves, actually you want to join the latest developments of that persuasion, then Nightborne is the obvious choice.

Ofc, I understand some alliance fans don't want to switch to horde for that, well, you have the Highborne, but you'll have to make do with a less flashier version with most of your glory in the past, not present. It's exactly the same for high elves now. Void elves can role high elf skins, you can choose to be a void elf exploring new incredible power, and starting up a new line of Thalassian elf, or you can opt for the high elf skin, but you won't have the flashier status symbol of the blood elves.



The big disappointment of the Nightborne was the hope they would improve the night elf male model - especially the faces and casting animation, so many cooler aspects from the NPPCs that you thought they would improved on went the opposite way.

That's my 2 cents

[CheckThyself]

It is just a physical appearance change, they are actually pre-sundering night elves - their arcane ways and practices are the ones dropped aside by the Darnassians, but still continued in the Highborne/Moonguard and now mainly the Nightborne.

yeah that's what I meant. I like the look of them better than night elves. But are they not their own race of elves at this point?
How are they just "arcane night elves" even though they came from night elves? The change done to them by arcane magic makes them their own sub-race of elves right?

[Beloren]

yeah that's what I meant. I like the look of them better than night elves. But are they not their own race of elves at this point?
How are they just "arcane night elves" even though they came from night elves? The change done to them by arcane magic makes them their own sub-race of elves right?

Yes, they are their own sub-race of night elf.

There was a lot of debate on that when we first met them, but it became clear in time, they are not night elves any more than void elves are blood elves - but they're the same race stock, just an off shoot -(sub-race is the right word). I think all general agree they are the night elf sub-race, as much as race of their own as void elves are, or Zandalari - you could consider them such, but they are not like a 3rd category of elves as some of us (myself included) use to think, but fall in the night elf category.

If they basically were like naga elf concept type, living in different environment, new culture (even if arcane based) etc, new city like Naz'jatar, more drastic physical appearances: Like these guys: (concept by Big Mama)





Then they'd qualify, but they're in their same kaldorei city, same pre-sundering culture and customs, unchanged, they are pretty much the arcane culture of the night elves, but with a slimline look. Just like void elves are the void side of the blood elves - but instead of being a different body gait, have the opposite skin colour.

It makes sense if blizzard wanted a 3rd category of elf, they'd needed to have done something like Naga elves or Star elves, Nightborne really just come off as Highborne with a more distinctive model to the bush elves.

[Astranea]

What do you think of this summary?

It’s good.

I find it absolutely undeniable that most Night Elves wouldn’t be warm to magic and perfectly feasible (and pleasant) that the Highborne would just get a small corner or district in a hypothetical major Night Elf settlement. Besides, mages in most Warcraft cultures do seem to rather dwell with their kin. Just think of the mage district in SW or Dalaran as a magical city.

As much as former Highborne arcanists are a thing, they are also a clear minority, and they are looked at with contempt by most.

[ravenmoon]

Nightborne versions of each class:

Now Nightborne reflect kaldorei civilization and give us a chance to see how that culture does things. Whiles currently only Highborne, Moonguard and Nightborne types follow that way, I think it's practical to envision what the playable classes would be for player Nightborne and those Night elf players that play as Highborne.

So the caster classes and hunter are obvious - they remain unchanged

Mage, Priest (likely moon priest) and warlock
Hunter is hunter, DK is DK there is no elven version of DK because the class is also a race of it's own.

Rogue = Spellblade

Warrior = Sentinel (Elune sentinel or Duskwatch sentinel)

Druid/Monk = Botanist? or just monk/druid?


This is what you would call your Nightborne/Highborne Rogue, warrior, monk and druid, what do you think?