Is there really a Classic WoW period: Vanilla-WotLK?

[Dalinos]

Yeah I vividly remember that too. I played thousands of arena games in TBC, I lived for that shit.

But how does doing horrible BG grind, even if you can dick around semi-afk somehow more welfare than easy as shit content like MC where any guild that wasn't dogshit could carry 15 fresh 60's and gear them up?

Also the pvp items were bad for pve with few exceptions, one apparently being the tank druids since blizz did piss poor job with itemization, other being weapons and after s2 weapons they required 1850 rating which wasn't easy back then because the rating wasn't as inflated back then. Gladiator was usually depending on BG 2300-2400. S2 weapons were good for up to T5 content, after that you had to be well above average in pvp to get S3 weapons that were arguably on par with some of the Hyjal/BT weapons.

Because, ANYTHING you can do solo, is easier than being in a guild that does organised raiding (+ all the baggage that comes with that). Sure, MC is easy. Yet PUGs still blow up the raid on Geddon and fuck up the kill order on Majordomo. Shit guilds still spend 4-6h in BWL like we did in 2005, when my guild is clearing it in 55-65 minutes. Simply the fact you need to be a) in a decent guild and b) be active & good enough to have an 100% raid spot is MILES harder than coming home from school/work/Uni and hitting up some BG's for a couple of hours. One requires you to be a functional, social human being, the other can be done by bots.

[Kynario]

TBC, mostly yes.

Overall, TBC did not fundamentally overhaul the game, it still had linear progression, more unique itemization with the biggest outliers on the low and top end removed, gear came from a variety of sources (rather than just raiding) and the class design still had the Vanilla feeling in a more balanced fashion.

While flying became a thing, the world was still relevant, you had to farm stuff for your powerful craftable items, reputation factions were designed with flying in mind.

Wotlk however, is where i disagree.
Wotlk really kicked the "play the patch" philosophy off that now dominates the game, it also introduced Itemlevel which then started to streamline the gearing process.

Not to mention that the introduction of multiple layers of difficulty heavily casualized raiding, alongside the heavily nerfed heroics.
It's also where the "go go go" mentality kicked off because mana started to matter less and more tanks / dps became capable of AoE'ing.
Homogenization also started to kick in with the "bring the player, not the class" mentality taking hold, no longer did a real support niche exist

It also no longer held the powerful craftable items that Classic / TBC had, farming materials in the outdoor world became a thing of the past.

Classic & TBC are overall made out the same / similiar cloth, while flying is a breakaway, the fact that the 5k Gold barrier was at the time pretty huge, stalled many people from truly experiencing it (regular flying was even slower than epic riding with 60%).

Wotlk is to me a transition phase to Cata / MoP, where the game started to become less RPG and more gameplay driven, it still had RPG elements, but they were tarnished.

Well said! /clap

[Thes]

No. The complaints that Blizzard betrayed their loyal fans and abandoned a working formula started in BC with "welfare legendaries", catch up mechanics, casual raids like Karazhan, etc. And it only got worse (read: better for the game, worse for fragile egos) from there in Wrath.

There was no welfare legendaries in BC and Karazhan wasn't the first casual 10 man raid in the game... TBC really was just more of the same.

[Muxtar]

But if you're looking to label it like some kind of major design shifts after 3 expansions, you're grasping hard at straws that aren't there. Vanilla-WotLK is the ONLY period you could label that makes sense. Cata to WoD really doesn't make sense no matter how you try to group those three expansions. The same goes for Legion-SL, there's nothing unifying their story nor gameplay as a group.

Agree with this. Vanilla-WotLK period is clearly different in terms of gameplay (classes, talents, PvE (at least until late WotLK) etc), immersion, storylines (most villains are from RTS universe), social interacting (until 3.3). All that came later is much much more bland and homogenized, with pruned abilities, classes/races combinations etc. I don't see much difference between WoD and Legion in that sense, maybe except infamous Garrisons finally going away.

[Uurdz]

Yes it is becasue they were built on the pre-Cata engine using the old systems, spell stacks, and database. So even from a dev standpoint that would be classic.

First Post, Best post.

Thread should have ended here.

[Yriel]

Real decline started with LFR in Cata. You can see the peak and crash in subs on the graph. There was never again a consistent period of high sub numbers. Just a rise with expansion release and mass abandon few months in when people realized the trash design is still present.

Wrong. It was the ingame shop. Right after it was introduced the sub number steadily declined and never again had a consistent period of high sub numbers. Just a rise with expansion release and mass abandon few months in when people realized the trash shop is still present.

[RoKPaNda]

There was no welfare legendaries in BC and Karazhan wasn't the first casual 10 man raid in the game... TBC really was just more of the same.

You're right I apologize, I meant to say "welfare epics" - BC was when the term was coined. Kara was the first 10 man in the game though, and it was very casual and accessible.

[Satelliteyears0o]

Im looking forward to classic bfa

[Kralljin]

But how does doing horrible BG grind, even if you can dick around semi-afk somehow more welfare than easy as shit content like MC where any guild that wasn't dogshit could carry 15 fresh 60's and gear them up?

People who carry someone through MC usually give consent in some fashion to drag you through, additionally, they can also just refuse you hand out any rewards.
If you're perma AFK in MC and then happen to be present once Rag is dead to type /roll on Bonereaver's Edge, you can expect that some people will call you out on that.

In random Battlegrounds, it was a pretty somber experience if you just wanted to grab some marks to get the newest Nonset items, only to end up with a bunch of green geared people who couldn't even put up a fight if they wanted to.

If you wiped in MC because too many people are AFK, you can act on it, if you lose a BG because too many people have virtually no gear to somehow contribute anything or flat out AFK leech, you can't do shit, especially because the AFK report system is heavily favoring the "accused" or the "accuser", you need to be literally AFK to get booted from a BG.

The gearing thing to bypass PvE progression is one thing (which only kinda worked because most pugs started to refuse invite people with full S1 / S2 Gladiator gear), but that you essentially ruined the experience of other people without them being able to act on it is where it crossed the line.

Also the pvp items were bad for pve with few exceptions, one apparently being the tank druids since blizz did piss poor job with itemization, other being weapons and after s2 weapons they required 1850 rating which wasn't easy back then because the rating wasn't as inflated back then.

Yes and No.

For most healers and casters, wearing full PvP in PvE was terrible, individual pieces were fine but the whole thing lacked regen stats (Mp5 or Spirit) as well as spellhit and casters needed a lot of spellhit.
For most tanks, it was completely unviable outside of wearing 1-2 pieces for crit immunity.

Melees however, they could extremely benefit from the weapons, S1 weapons were equivalent to T4 weapons, S2 were equivalent to T5.
Melees also didn't need as much hit, lack of expertise was a general issue so that didn't matter as much as well.

After all, getting a raid weapon for just pressing spacebar every once in a while was pretty lucrative.

[Lubefist]

People who carry someone through MC usually give consent in some fashion to drag you through, additionally, they can also just refuse you hand out any rewards.
If you're perma AFK in MC and then happen to be present once Rag is dead to type /roll on Bonereaver's Edge, you can expect that some people will call you out on that.

In random Battlegrounds, it was a pretty somber experience if you just wanted to grab some marks to get the newest Nonset items, only to end up with a bunch of green geared people who couldn't even put up a fight if they wanted to.

If you wiped in MC because too many people are AFK, you can act on it, if you lose a BG because too many people have virtually no gear to somehow contribute anything or flat out AFK leech, you can't do shit, especially because the AFK report system is heavily favoring the "accused" or the "accuser", you need to be literally AFK to get booted from a BG.

The gearing thing to bypass PvE progression is one thing (which only kinda worked because most pugs started to refuse invite people with full S1 / S2 Gladiator gear), but that you essentially ruined the experience of other people without them being able to act on it is where it crossed the line.

Yes and No.

For most healers and casters, wearing full PvP in PvE was terrible, individual pieces were fine but the whole thing lacked regen stats (Mp5 or Spirit) as well as spellhit and casters needed a lot of spellhit.
For most tanks, it was completely unviable outside of wearing 1-2 pieces for crit immunity.

Melees however, they could extremely benefit from the weapons, S1 weapons were equivalent to T4 weapons, S2 were equivalent to T5.
Melees also didn't need as much hit, lack of expertise was a general issue so that didn't matter as much as well.

After all, getting a raid weapon for just pressing spacebar every once in a while was pretty lucrative.

Mate I literally said the same thing in there

[arucado3]

No. The complaints that Blizzard betrayed their loyal fans and abandoned a working formula started in BC with "welfare epics", catch up mechanics, casual raids like Karazhan, etc. And it only got worse (read: better for the game, worse for fragile egos) from there in Wrath.

Edit: Corrected legendaries to epics.

Bullshit. TBC is grindy af, its vanilla 2.0. World was still alive , everything took years to achieve, no LFG, no heirlooms... The only difference that i could point is that they made PVP system less grindy, imo it was horseshit system in vanilla so, good anyway

[Afrospinach]

Im looking forward to classic bfa

On some level people do learn how to enjoy things, they will know what to pursue and not to pursue. I am sure every xpac would have some kind of following if it was re released. Just take classic for example, most everyone there knows why they are there and basically everyone is decked out in epic raid gear. This was simply not the case in vanilla.

[Will]

The vast majority of people like the LFG tool too.

I know they did, but people like Pohut seem to think that just because they don't like flying or LFG, that it marked the downfall of the game. It's ridiculous, the bubble/echo chamber these people live in.

[Pohut]

I know they did, but people like Pohut seem to think that just because they don't like flying or LFG, that it marked the downfall of the game. It's ridiculous, the bubble/echo chamber these people live in.

I never said that's when the downfall started. It is what been claimed by people in game and on forums over the years, but now that Classic is almost done, all of a sudden it is a Classic era.
As far as I am personally concerned: WoW should've ended with the death of the Lich King. That was the end of Warcraft story. Everything we've seen after that was unnecessary crap.

[WoWIsThatAPotato]

As much as it makes sense to include WOTLK into the classic era, my braion cannot bring itself to do it. Although it didn't have as many features that departed from the classic feel than Cata(revamped Azeroth, cross realm, new talent system...), it is by that time that people started complaining about the casualisation of the game

The introduction of LFD Blizzard experimenting with the cross-server feature were a sign of major shift in paradigm for the entire community. It killed server identity, made toxic behavior the new normal and relieved us of the need to build our own group and move to the dungeon. It really hurt the sense of community that any MMO craves for.
Not only that, but the game became very casual friendly. Lots of catch-up mechanics like argalon(or w/e it's called), the raid became ostensibly easier (Naxx/ Coliseum), the goofy-wacky haha-quests, the introduction of Heroic Mode and 10 man which made raiding much more accessible, or the new dungeons dropping some free epic. I don't remember the exact details, but the introduction of LFD itself made me think I was playing a very different game from classic and TBC.

Imo, Cata was just the nail on the coffin. Seeing that WOTLK, a much more casual friendly xpack, had brought new records of player, Blizzard simply double-downed with it. I would agree that the shift is much more noticeable with Cataclysm, but imo WOTLK was really the beginning of the end.
Maybe it should have its own category.

[PHsname]

TBC, mostly yes.

Overall, TBC did not fundamentally overhaul the game, it still had linear progression, more unique itemization with the biggest outliers on the low and top end removed, gear came from a variety of sources (rather than just raiding) and the class design still had the Vanilla feeling in a more balanced fashion.

While flying became a thing, the world was still relevant, you had to farm stuff for your powerful craftable items, reputation factions were designed with flying in mind.

Wotlk however, is where i disagree.
Wotlk really kicked the "play the patch" philosophy off that now dominates the game, it also introduced Itemlevel which then started to streamline the gearing process.

Not to mention that the introduction of multiple layers of difficulty heavily casualized raiding, alongside the heavily nerfed heroics.
It's also where the "go go go" mentality kicked off because mana started to matter less and more tanks / dps became capable of AoE'ing.
Homogenization also started to kick in with the "bring the player, not the class" mentality taking hold, no longer did a real support niche exist

It also no longer held the powerful craftable items that Classic / TBC had, farming materials in the outdoor world became a thing of the past.

Classic & TBC are overall made out the same / similiar cloth, while flying is a breakaway, the fact that the 5k Gold barrier was at the time pretty huge, stalled many people from truly experiencing it (regular flying was even slower than epic riding with 60%).

Wotlk is to me a transition phase to Cata / MoP, where the game started to become less RPG and more gameplay driven, it still had RPG elements, but they were tarnished.

I was initially going to disagree, as I feel like the real cutoff was between wrath and cata, but I think characterizing wrath (particularly the end of wrath) as a transition point is definitely correct.

The one thing that really makes the wrath -> cata transition feel so sharp to me is Blizz's effort going into cata to really clean up the systems and be willing to stuff away. Talent trees stayed, yes, but they were completely redone...we didn't have things like confusing defensive talents in the enhancement tree that made it seem like they were going to be tanks one day anymore. The way they homogenized tanks and healers back then also indicated to me their approach to really cleaning up and balancing the gameplay.

[Jurwi]

It killed server identity, made toxic behavior the new normal

Classic has ton of toxic behavior too really, hard to blame LFD and cross-server.

[Dhrizzle]

Wrong. It was the ingame shop. Right after it was introduced the sub number steadily declined and never again had a consistent period of high sub numbers. Just a rise with expansion release and mass abandon few months in when people realized the trash shop is still present.

In-game shop was mid-MoP wasn't it, so there'd already been steady decline during Cata and the rest of MoP.

[Scathan]

But, it wasnt "random" or "arbitrary". Thats my point - you can disagree with their assessment, you can disagree with the distinctions they have made, but the very fact that clear time frames where defined and matched to existing distinct time-frames in wow, and justified, makes it by definition, not arbitrary.

Arbitrary means random or based on whim. It could definitely be argued that all these definitions of wow classicalin fact arbitrary, because regardless of the reasoning, it is up to their beliefs and not any sort of agreed upon fact

[arkanon]

Arbitrary means random or based on whim. It could definitely be argued that all these definitions of wow classicalin fact arbitrary, because regardless of the reasoning, it is up to their beliefs and not any sort of agreed upon fact

Sorry but this is plain wrong. Absolutely nothing in the definition says it needs to be agreed upon facts, but the very acceptance by you that it is based on reasoning and systems (the expansions) makes it none arbitrary.

It's not particularly difficult to understand, but your fumbling attempt here suggests you quickly googled the word, looked at the top definition, and decided you understood it perfectly. You clearly do not.