I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Nuciek]

While I don't disagree, what do you need the best gear if you are not tackling the best content. Like if you are not raiding you don't need anything higher than LFR. While some may do high M+, you don't need raid gear for that either, sure it helps, but it's not needed. Same with PvP, and people just doing WQs.

You know that best content depends on the content that you play? It's not only Mythic raiding. Good luck competing in PvP without PvE gear in BFA.

Because of how M+ works, it doesn't work.

M+ offers a massive lootpool (virtually any item that drops off a 5man boss), which gives you almost any potential stat combination (which is the only value items have besides raw Ilvl), can be repeated as many times as you like and is on top of that far easier to organize than raids.

In comparison, PvP used to work off a weekly Arena / Conquest points, those essentially emulated the weekly lockout of raids, M+ however is a "shake as often as you like" type of source that can give a decent item for virtually any slot.

M+ cannot coexist in its current form alongside raiding or PvP unless you bring back game mode specific stats, it quite frankly resembles something that belongs into a Loot shooter or ARPG, not an MMORPG that has everything else based on weekly lockouts.

But why not just fix it, instead of making it worse for those that enjoy it? Just make M+ loot locked behind weekly resets like the Vision loot. So looking at current SL M+ end of dungeon loot table it would look something like this:
- your first +15 drop: 210
- your second +15 drop: 207 (reward from 12-14 keys)
- your third +15 drop: 204 (reward from 10-11 keys)

That way loot would be locked weekly, but there would still be some loot every run. It would also mean that loot from end of dungeon could be higher than what it is right now (for example mythic raid ilvl for +20 or +25) because you wouldn't be able to grind the rewards. Combined with the fact that you have random keys and than random drop from whole dungeon it would be quite close to how you gear up from raids.

Because they enjoy it?

So let's remove all loot from raid, raiders can raid because they enjoy it.

[Nevcairiel]

Legion had sets, BFA has Azerite. It's the same shit.

Hardly. Many Azerite BiS pieces actually come from farming M+ currency. Sets were exclusively a raid bonus.

Next.

[arkanon]

someone forgot that it's 2020 year now. your raids is outdated content, wait for next expac and there wont anything higher than 6 ppl content

Been hearing that since TBC. Try again.

[Lolites]

Mythic plus is infinite
raiding is not
mythic plus therefore should not be equal, or even better then raiding.

and, as it is now in BFA before this change, it is not... best gear is STILL only available via raiding, with weekly chest tagging along...
M+ end of run reward roughly HC gear, which is adequate, they could make it equal so its not a bit better (although with last bosses having better drops thats kind of moot) but making it below heroic is a bit too much...

yes, M+ is spamable, but it drops less loot... i think making raid loot more unique (like items from crucible) would be better direction, making rewards worse will lead only to less people doing M+, after first week most people will do just 1 for weekly and leave it at it, so for dps it will be "pleasure" to look for groups...

[Kaver]

Wait what? Guess M+ is kinda dead now. I mean people still do it for vault but besides from that heroic raid is better.

This creates a funny situation where if you ever want to have good gear without actually raiding, you would need to buy yourself a boost.
Or better yet, earn gear with vault, sign up for boosting community, get gold, buy mythic gear run.

That is kinda sad tho.

Let’s see. I don’t think it will happen as you say. There are A LOT of people who do M+ simply because we like pushing keys and doing dungeons. Just because they reduced the attractiveness of the infinite loot grind doesn’t necessarily mean people will play less M+. I think as an example we will see more alts. Now that people don’t have to worry about grinding dungeons for gear on one character in the same way they did in BFA, we have much more freedom to create alts and try them out in dungeons too. This is very attractive to a lot of people. Personally I would have played M+ in BFA more if the game had been more alt friendly.

The players who only do M+ will most likely want to do 10 runs a week to get 3 options in the weekly chest. I think it’s a huge reward that a player who only runs +14 keys can be mythic geared in a few weeks. In BFA it took you almost 10 weeks just to buy one specific piece of Azerite gear. In Shadowlands a player who only do M+ will be able to get full mythic level gear in that time. As I see it, M+ players got it good in Shadowlands. I only see a disadvantage for the players who like to power grind on only one character. But for everyone else who likes alt etc Shadowlands is great. I don’t think M+ is dead at all.

[Howlk]

So PVPers got their own gear source that looks promising so far and mythic raiding is the top end of PVE again?

and sellruns got gutted by the requirements of the great Vault AND the end of Dungeon loot?

SL is starting to look better and better

[shise]

Raiding is the largest part of the game. Most other things evolve towards it.

That being said, luckily, you have plenty of things to do out of raids today.

You even have classic for a cool leveling experience and soon BC again.

You can even have a mix of HC and Mythic raid equipment without stepping into a raid.

[Lolites]

Hardly. Many Azerite BiS pieces actually come from farming M+ currency. Sets were exclusively a raid bonus.

Next.

cant speak for all specs, but as icecap DK, i wear chest and shoulders from HC raid even though i could buy dozens of highest azerite pieces, but none of them have traits i actualy need to make the spec viable...

i guess it realy depends on spec (which would be truth about sets too) but yeah, a lot of specs actualy do have their bis azerite in raids only

[Kaver]

and, as it is now in BFA before this change, it is not... best gear is STILL only available via raiding, with weekly chest tagging along...
M+ end of run reward roughly HC gear, which is adequate, they could make it equal so its not a bit better (although with last bosses having better drops thats kind of moot) but making it below heroic is a bit too much...

yes, M+ is spamable, but it drops less loot... i think making raid loot more unique (like items from crucible) would be better direction, making rewards worse will lead only to less people doing M+, after first week most people will do just 1 for weekly and leave it at it, so for dps it will be "pleasure" to look for groups...

It will be very attractive to do 10 runs per week to get 3 different options of loot in you weekly chest to reduce RNG. If you have 3 characters then that’s 30 M+ runs a week right there. Players will do a lot of M+ in Shadowlands. Also because a lot of us actually have fun doing M+.

[Dracullus]

Just for doing one M+14 you will have 226 item every week, which is same as Mythic for 80% bosses in Castle Nathria. And if you love M+ so much and will do 10 M+14 every week, you will have 3 items to choose from, so it's pretty reliable source for upgrades.

Blizzard just decreased rewards from end of dungeon - probably because, unlike raids, you can spam it endlessly. Sometimes I don't understand how someone could be so ignorant and so invested in game at same time to create threads like this.

[BeepBoo]

"why don't raiders see that": because they are idiots
"and apparently the dev team": because the game director is a raider. see above

Sure, then make whatever other activities you want to reward raid level stuff be as hard as raids and ultimately result in as much time invested (though not necessarily at once).

Rate of acquisition should be what it was in older times, and difficulty required should be about the same as well.

[Lolites]

and sellruns got gutted by the requirements of the great Vault AND the end of Dungeon loot?

eh... what?
reducing reward from end of run will not hurt boost sellers, quite the opposite i think, it will lead to more people buying boosts, as PUGS wont take m+ only players due to low gear...

[Kaver]

cant speak for all specs, but as icecap DK, i wear chest and shoulders from HC raid even though i could buy dozens of highest azerite pieces, but none of them have traits i actualy need to make the spec viable...

i guess it realy depends on spec (which would be truth about sets too) but yeah, a lot of specs actualy do have their bis azerite in raids only

This is true but it is very specific to BFA. There is no Azerite gear or similar in Shadowlands so this problem is none existing. Let’s not dwell on things that are not relevant for the future.

[LordVargK]

I'll tell you what we need. Pet Battle Raids.

You should work at Blizzard.

OT: Let them reintroduce tier sets and even the people that don't raid for fun but just for the gear have something that compels them to raid.

[Lolites]

Sure, then make whatever other activities you want to reward raid level stuff be as hard as raids and ultimately result in as much time invested (though not necessarily at once).

if you think M+15 is (or will be in SL) below heroic barely above last normal bosses difficulty im sure you never progresed past LFR or M+3 without being carried...

[Kaver]

eh... what?
reducing reward from end of run will not hurt boost sellers, quite the opposite i think, it will lead to more people buying boosts, as PUGS wont take m+ only players due to low gear...

Everyone should do themselves a favor and stop pugging. Especially if you are a M+ only player. Find yourself a team that you can run with regularly and have fun with. It’s a much better experience than pugging. Also Blizzard shouldn’t design the game around pugging.

[arkanon]

if you think M+15 is (or will be in SL) below heroic barely above last normal bosses difficulty im sure you never progresed past LFR or M+3 without being carried...

I actually agree with them - a +15 is only tough when under geared. Considering how much high quality loot you can get through M+ without doing a +15, its quite simple really. Unless i misunderstood what you are trying to say?

[Lolites]

a +15 is only tough when under geared.

unlike HC raid?
neither HC raid or M+15 is difficult if you have appropriate gear, but entering both with whole group fully normal geared M+15 is more difficult, raid have more complexity to mechanics, but dungeon requires more throughput and everyone doing their part, so why should it give WORSE reward?
it should be possible to reach at leat HC level gear from end of run, if not from +15 then from +20, but it should definitely not be halted for no other reason just to give raiders sense of superiority...

[Chonar]

I'll tell you what we need. Pet Battle Raids.

Oooo! Pet Battles are my favorite minigame, with PVP a close second!

[Delever]

Just for doing one M+14 you will have 226 item every week, which is same as Mythic for 80% bosses in Castle Nathria. And if you love M+ so much and will do 10 M+14 every week, you will have 3 items to choose from, so it's pretty reliable source for upgrades.

Blizzard just decreased rewards from end of dungeon - probably because, unlike raids, you can spam it endlessly. Sometimes I don't understand how someone could be so ignorant and so invested in game at same time to create threads like this.

I m happy theres at least a sliver of sense in this thread.