I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Kaver]

so why should it give WORSE reward?

But it doesn't overall.

Someone who only does M+ will get a piece of 226 loot every week. With 3 different options it will most likely be an upgrade every week. So the M+ only player will be 226 geared in a few weeks.

Someone who only does heroic raiding will not get more than 213 loot. They will get it from the bosses and they will get it from the chest.

So after a few weeks the M+ only player will be better off.

[Kalivox]

You... don't have to raid all the time. I'm confused at what this thread is trying to discuss

[Delever]

But it doesn't overall.

Someone who only does M+ will get a piece of 226 loot every week. With 3 different options it will most likely be an upgrade every week. So the M+ only player will be 226 geared in a few weeks.

Someone who only does heroic raiding will not get more than 213 loot. They will get it from the bosses and they will get it from the chest.

So after a few weeks the M+ only player will be better off.

Thats what people dont get. The game has never been less raid or die than now. You can literally get max ilvl from doing content that is significantly easier than mythic raiding. Does it take more time than if you re a good mythic raider? Yes.
But in expansions pre legion this was not even possible.

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You... don't have to raid all the time. I'm confused at what this thread is trying to discuss

In fact you dont have to raid at all. See my comment above

[Mendzia]

Highest diffculty raid should always give best items.

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

Why do you need gear if you do not have time for raiding?

[Cazze]

Like 3 percent, maybe less, of people complete mythics raids? Do other people die?

[VinceVega]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

Then don't. SPam MYthics. In a few weeks you are Mythic raid level geared. Done.
There is no need to raid ever. So stop whining.

There is just freaking reason to do Heroic again. BFA made LFR/normal/heroic/PvP gearing completly useless as there was an easier way to gear in Mythic+

[Kaver]

Thats what people dont get. The game has never been less raid or die than now. You can literally get max ilvl from doing content that is significantly easier than mythic raiding. Does it take more time than if you re a good mythic raider? Yes.
But in expansions pre legion this was not even possible.

Exactly. And I didn't hear people complain in BFA that it took almost 10 weeks to get a specific piece of Azerite gear from the vendor. But as soon as it has to do with ilvl then people go crazy. A M+ only player in Shadowlands will be able to get very good gear very easily as you say. It wont even take that much time because some gear slots will be filled by legendaries etc.

[Accendor]

As someone who also mythic raids, this makes my playtime more efficient, enjoyable, and social. It'll allow for better quality of life balance since I already have 140 of the weekly 168 hours accounted for. It basically turns WoW into "after work cocktails" once you've established your character/role(s) foundation. I honestly relish the idea of not having to over invest my limited free time into the game.

I don't really get why people prefer to NOT play the game. If its something you don't like to do, why do it?

[Delever]

Like 3 percent, maybe less, of people complete mythics raids? Do other people die?

Before writing these comments do you even take half a second to think? Please tell me how other people die. How it works is:
-M+15 rewards 210 ilvl gear at the end. This has NO LOCKOUT AND CAN BE SPAMMED
-Heroic raiding rewards 213 ilvl gear WITH A WEEKLY LOCKOUT
-Mythic raiding rewards 226 gear WITH A WEEKLY LOCKOUT
-Weekly chest from M+15 rewards 226 gear WITH A WEEKLY LOCKOUT

With the above information one can conclude the following:
-A heroic raider during the first few weeks of an expansion who does not do M+ will be significantly less geared than a person who spams M+ since the M+ person will have endless access to 210 ilvl gear while the raider will have gear that is only 3 ilvls higher yet on a weekly lockout.
-A heroic raider who also engages in M+ will probably be ahead of a pure M+ player DURING THE FIRST WEEKS due to having gear access from both sources.
-A mythic raider engaging in the most difficult content in the game will be more geared than a heroic raider and a M+ player DURING THE FIRST WEEKS of the expansion, even moreso if they do M+ (which I assume mythic raiders do by default)
-Eventually the M+ player will have the same ilvl as the mythic raider while doing significantly less difficult content. The mythic raider will maybe enjoy a 1-2 ilvl bonus fromt he last 2 bosses of mythic having higher ilvl.

CONCLUSION: All players can reach the highest ilvl through multiple forms of content. Players then have the choice between challegning themselves and engaging in multiple types of content to get it faster, or doing easier content and less types of content and getting it slower.
I think this is the best of both worlds at this point. People who do harder content and engage in more types of content should be rewarded.

PS: If anything... why are people forced to do M+ or die? Mythic raiding is not accessible to most players therefore making the audience who does it outliers STATISTICALLY. Out of the content that is accessible to the highest % of the playerbase (heroic raiding and M+) M+ rewards significantly better rewards than heroic raiding at the end of the week.

[arkanon]

unlike HC raid?
neither HC raid or M+15 is difficult if you have appropriate gear, but entering both with whole group fully normal geared M+15 is more difficult, raid have more complexity to mechanics, but dungeon requires more throughput and everyone doing their part, so why should it give WORSE reward?
it should be possible to reach at leat HC level gear from end of run, if not from +15 then from +20, but it should definitely not be halted for no other reason just to give raiders sense of superiority...

And i completely 100% disagree that clearing a heroic raid is in any world easier than clearing a +15.

[Kaver]

I don't really get why people prefer to NOT play the game. If its something you don't like to do, why do it?

It's not about that. It's about having to endlessly grind on ONE character. A LOT of people like to have alts. But if the grind (workload) for each character become too large then it's not feasible to have alts. Blizzard should design the game based on people who only want to play ONE character and want to be able to play that ONE character 8 hours a day. It ruins the game for the rest of us like BFA did.

[Delever]

And i completely 100% disagree that clearing a heroic raid is in any world easier than clearing a +15.

Taking his argument into account though, even if it was, its still on a weekly lockout for loot. You cannot endlessly spam a heroic raid to be full 213 ilvl in a week like you can with M+.

[Tronski]

With the M+ cache offering multiple choices & mythic item level loot, in the long run, M+ will result in a better gearset than it currently does as you're a lot more likely to find something useful in your cache each week.



Well fun is the best reason. Gear is a tool, so honestly, if these changes are enough to put people off doing certain content then they're just not all that into the content in the first place, which is the real discussion to be had here.

Raiders don't want fun. They want bragging rights and the awe of their peers (and lessers) in their respective echo chambers. Often they want the power it translates to in PvP in order to get the edge they claim they don't need. Fun is not on the agenda, unless you count PvP roflstomping. Remove the high power gear and the gear-walls called progression difficulty (as in i.e. having mythic raids doable in heroic gear) and the players of WoW would do it once and the scene would be dead save for 5 people on each server waiting for crossrealm mythic to be enabled so they can have some more fun.

I recently did a thread regarding gear scaling in mythic raids akin to Timewalking or Challenge modes, and it turned out that not a single person in that discussion would raid unless said raiding eventually would give them the necessary power to progress in that raid difficulty. People actually want gear to be the most influential barrier / artificial difficulty, because then they know that they eventually will overpower the mechanics they can't handle. And for some reason that is better than just making fights less complex again.

But it's a hen/egg dilemma. Mythic raids are usually more complex than Heroic raids, and if mythic raids were to be dumbed down in order to be doable with a lower ilvl, why even have mythic, right? But if the rewards aren't so powerful people need them like golden brown, why would they spend weeks wiping on one boss? That's certainly not fun in itself.

Then on top of that you have ActiBlizzions metrics to push time required to finish content unbearable long to make sure people keep logging into the game.

It's both really sad and amusing. Mostly sad.

From a gameplay perspective, the game would probably benefit from a mythic raid model where the difficulty is just a little higher than heroic, more complex, but where stronger gear isn't the only solution to progress, or at all - and where the rewards doesn't make you a god in the open world or a first-pick in any group. Something like gear scaling or ilvl cap. Sure, it would lead to less replayability of mythic raids, but would it really be a bad thing if you don't need to raid 10 hours every week unless you really really want to?

[Kaver]

just to give raiders sense of superiority...

This is a comparison of what you have to do in shadowlands to get 3 different 226 options in your weekly chest:

- M+ player: Complete 10 runs of +14 keys.

- Raider: Kill 10 Mythic raid bosses.

The M+ player has it much easier. They only have to do spam +14 keys to get the same weekly reward that a raider have to kill 10 mythic raid bosses to get.

[Delever]

Raiders don't want fun. They want bragging rights and the awe of their peers (and lessers) in their respective echo chambers. Often they want the power it translates to in PvP in order to get the edge they claim they don't need. Fun is not on the agenda, unless you count PvP roflstomping. Remove the high power gear and the gear-walls called progression difficulty (as in i.e. having mythic raids doable in heroic gear) and the players of WoW would do it once and the scene would be dead save for 5 people on each server waiting for crossrealm mythic to be enabled so they can have some more fun.

I recently did a thread regarding gear scaling in mythic raids akin to Timewalking or Challenge modes, and it turned out that not a single person in that discussion would raid unless said raiding eventually would give them the necessary power to progress in that raid difficulty. People actually want gear to be the most influential barrier / artificial difficulty, because then they know that they eventually will overpower the mechanics they can't handle. And for some reason that is better than just making fights less complex again.

but it's a hen/egg dilemma. Mythic raids are usually more complex than Heroic raids, and if mythic raids were to be dumbed down in order to be doable with a lower ilvl, why even have mythic, right? But if the rewards aren't so powerful people need them like golden brown, why would they spend weeks wiping on one boss? That's certainly not fun in itself.

Then on top of that you have ActiBlizzions metrics to push time required to finish content unbearable long to make sure people keep logging into the game.

It's both really sad and amusing. Mostly sad.

From a gameplay perspective, the game would probably benefit from a mythic raid model where the difficulty is just a little higher than heroic, more complex, but where stronger gear isn't the only solution to progress, or at all - and where the rewards doesn't make you a god in the open world or a first-pick in any group. Something like gear scaling or ilvl cap.

Have you ever thought that people who raid want gear to be a good part of their character because they started playing this game on the premise that they were playing an RPG? Where you know.... gear is very important for the progression of your character. If I wanted gear to not be important and I did not enjoy getting better gear then I d play a fighting game perhaps.
My fun comes both from the raid, from talking with my fellow raiders and socializing and finally getting good gear. Its a combination of everything.

[Aggrophobic]

What's the reason to raid on live? or pvp?

Raiding gives you the best gear, the fastest by far. M+ still has a place though.
In Shadowlands M+ is dead content for anyone that does raiding at HC or above though. Same goes for PvP.

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Because they enjoy it?

Then why can't the same be applied to raiding?

[Kaver]

I recently did a thread regarding gear scaling in mythic raids akin to Timewalking or Challenge modes, and it turned out that not a single person in that discussion would raid unless said raiding eventually would give them the necessary power to progress in that raid difficulty.

..and it turned out that not a single person..

Well this is a lie. Why do you feel a need to lie to get your point across?

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People actually want gear to be the most influential barrier / artificial difficulty, because then they know that they eventually will overpower the mechanics they can't handle. And for some reason that is better than just making fights less complex again.

This is simly not true. Doing a mythic boss with mythic gear is still much much harder than doing a heroic boss with heroic gear. The gear is not equalizing the difficulty of the encounters. Most players would not be nowhere near able to do mythic N'zoth even if they got the best geared character in the game. You are completely twisting the reality into some theoretical example that fits your agenda.

[Nuciek]

I don't really get why people prefer to NOT play the game. If its something you don't like to do, why do it?

It's not that they don't want to play the game. They don't want to play the game ALL THE TIME. You know, people have jobs, families, other hobbies. They want to play WoW, but they don't wan to be forced to have to login every day and to do things they don't like to do, just so they can do what they like to do in the game.

I get it that's an mmo and there's always some kind of grind required, there's always a requirements for something, but it shouldn't overshadow the main content. I can do 2-3 hours a week of chores to get my optimal upgrades, but I don't want to spend an hour a day doing them. There are more fun things to do in the game. You also put everything in one basket and call it The Game. It's not that simple, WoW has a lot of different content. There's leveling, raids, m+, arena, battlegrounds, duels, world pvp, pet battles and probably more and every person likes different parts of the game. Someone might like raids, but don't like dungeons and he doesn't want to farm dungeons every day, just so he can progress in raids and vice versa.

I on the other hand have hard time understanding why you want to be forced into boring grinds and boring content. If you want to have a shot at the best power progress than try to fill your weekly chest with full options. Clear full mythic raid, run 10 M+15 and farm conquest at Gladiator bracket every week. When you'll do that you can say there's nothing in this game that gives you a chance at character progression.

[Delever]

Raiding gives you the best gear, the fastest by far. M+ still has a place though.
In Shadowlands M+ is dead content for anyone that does raiding at HC or above though. Same goes for PvP.

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Then why can't the same be applied to raiding?

Hard to take aggrophobic seriously but lets give it a go. How is it dead content for anyone that does HC raiding? Take the CURRENT state of BfA for example. 2 months now its the end of the 8.3 patch. Most people who have been playing the game have already gotten max ilvl, pretty decent corruptions etc. And yet when I open up the finder there are literally dozens of groups running high level and low level keys. The people running those keys are 99% well above heroic raiding ilvl. And yet M+ is not dead. And it wont be dead in SL. Especially not with a mere 3 ilvl difference FROM THE END REWARD OF THE DUNGEON WHICH IS SPAMMABLE COMPARED TO THE WEEKLY HEROIC LOCKOUT. If anything now in BfA on paper you only want to be doing one M+15 a week for a chance at mythic ilvl gear.
In SL you have even more incentive to do more than one M+ as it will open more options for an upgrade from the weekly chest.

[Tronski]

..and it turned out that not a single person..

Well this is a lie. Why do you feel a need to lie to get your point across?

For that particular thread it is 100% true. I can give you the link to the thread if you feel the need to verify, or you can find it through my profile. There was one person in that discussion arguing that raids should be about fun instead of gear, and that was me.

This is simly not true. Doing a mythic boss with mythic gear is still much much harder than doing a heroic boss with heroic gear. The gear is not equalizing the difficulty of the encounters. Most players would not be nowhere near able to do mythic N'zoth even if they got the best geared character in the game. You are completely twisting the reality into some theoretical example that fits your agenda.

And yet, 15-18 people can now kill Mythic N'zoth so easily that the mount is much cheaper than Longboi. I wonder what changed between now and the week it took to get world first. Complexity Limit probably didn't know the tactics well enough back then, right?

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Have you ever thought that people who raid want gear to be a good part of their character because they started playing this game on the premise that they were playing an RPG? Where you know.... gear is very important for the progression of your character. If I wanted gear to not be important and I did not enjoy getting better gear then I d play a fighting game perhaps.
My fun comes both from the raid, from talking with my fellow raiders and socializing and finally getting good gear. Its a combination of everything.

Good for you. Really.
But where in this equation does it come in that the game should be centered around raiding and that the best rewards are entitled those who raid at the highest level? This is what the thread is about.

Regardless, I only argued the case that if you got the same gear from heroic 5m dungeons that you get from Mythic N'zoth, then you would in fact not care to kill Mythic N'zoth more than once, because you probably wouldn't find that fun when there's no rewards. Much like I assume you stopped killing him when you didn't need the gear he drops any more as you probably wanted the rewards more than the "fun" of doing him again and again.