Mythic Raiding in SL = all other content not relevant?

[Lolites]

I think you will see a change. I think they are prepping to raise the ilvl on gear above 15.

if that was the case i have no issue, but if it stays as it is it will be ridiculous reward structure

[cparle87]

It's like Blizzard learns nothing, ever. It's actually kind of impressive. So for me as a Mythic raider what this means is that I'll login for my weekly raid, logout, and not touch WoW until the following week. How amazingly boring. I was already not very excited for SL and this just puts the interest meter somewhere around 0. They went from a fuckton of optional content that had the potential to be rewarding in Legion to "lol raid log, nothing else is worth it." in SL. Absolutely massive step backwards.

They created an alternative to raiding in M+ and it was actually quite good and now they're crippling it.

And at the same time they had raiders burning out at a rate unheard of, constant complaints about being "forced" to do old content with the hope that something would titanforge enough to be useful, and endless grinds for fractions of a percent of power. They added endless grinding for people who enjoyed it, only for people with no self control to end up hating the game, and themselves, for doing it.

As for an alternative to raiding, very few people do mythic raiding. The vast majority of raiders are doing normal or heroic. M+ capping out at heroic gear with a weekly mythic piece is fine. That's what we had from the weekly raid chest missions in WoD.

[Nuciek]

An MMO isnt a single player game, so Wimbledon reference is moot.

Nice job dismissing argument because you don't like it. Let's change it for you. What's harder to win, Champions League or Wimbledon doubles?

I personally think they Mythic+ should continue to give higher ilvl gear and once you pass Mythic+20-25 it should be same ilvl as Mythic raiding. Mythic+15 as easy as Heroic raids so it shouldn't give higher ilvl gear. Blizzard stopping Mythic+ gear at 15 is a mistake in my opinion. Other than bragging rights, Mythic+ 16 and above is pointless. If you want people to push content, you need to reward them for pushing it.

So you admit that smaller groups content can be as hard as raids?

I agree that M+ should drop better gear at higher keys up to mythic raid level, but with a limit on drops, like the one in Visions.

[Zmagoslav]

I'm quite looking forward to these changes.
The ilvl offset is probably there to mitigate the lack of class-sets in the 1st tier.

I'd be OK with it if they made it a +15 end of the run ilvl = heroic drop ilvl

Also one mistake can cost you a game in arena and one mistake can cost you a key im M+. Yet you disregard any difficulty level in those just because raids require more people. It's right, they do, but that also means that there's less responsibility per person than there is in smaller grups. Different content = different "skill set".

Just tell me, do you think that killing first few bosses on mythic Ny'alotha is harder than finishing +30 key or getting Gladiator?

Also what's harder, winning Champions League (11v11) or Wimbledon (1v1) ?

To the bolded part: I don't know and i doubt i ever will; and considering you seem to think these 2 sports fit into the same category indicates you are even further off from ever knowing it than me.

[SanitariumZ]

Let's shove content down people's throats. It worked out great for BFA.

My mates were thrilled when they found out they had to grind arenas to get Conflict and Strife.

Wait a minute... That's why people flocked to Classic! They must be missing raiding for a couple of hours, then logging out for the rest of the week badly.

Classic must mean we're back in 2005. HAHA there is no Youtube. Even if they ragequit what are they gonna do with their spare time? It's not like there's tons of interesting games out there.

Balancing M+ is hard bruh. Meta is stale 2 expansions later and now we gotta come up with new interesting affixes? Who thought this would be a good idea? Abort. Abort. Pull the plug.

I like turtles.

P.S They can't complain about not being able to juggle between covenants for different types of content if there's only one type of content. Modern problems require modern solutions.

[Nuciek]

To the bolded part: I don't know and i doubt i ever will; and considering you seem to think these 2 sports fit into the same category indicates you are even further off from ever knowing it than me.

But that was exactly my point. You just proved my point. That guy said that Mythic raiding is the hardest part of the game because it requires the biggest group. And I did that comparison just to show that there might be two paths, two different contents (sports) that you can't even compare because they require different skill set. They are two different things and you can't say one is harder than the order just like that.

Just like you can't say that Mythic raiding is harder than PvP or M+, because they are different type of content, and in my opinion they should reward equal rewards (at comparable levels of difficulty, based on percentage of players being able to complete it).

[facefist]

You're acting as if M+ is somehow being removed, when it isn't. You can still push high keys in SL and be rewarded for it, you just aren't going to be showered in loot from every single run. If you enjoy M+ I don't see why you'd complain about having to do more of it. If you don't enjoy M+, but you just liked getting easy loot, then it isn't really fair to claim you liked M+.

I can't believe that you, as a raider, threw out this argument. Do you enjoy raiding? If yes, then would you be fine with them reducing raid loot to let's say 1/5 of what you currently get? Obviously you shouldn't complain about having to do more of raiding if you enjoy it - maybe even make it so that you can get only 1 item for a full clear, but you can clear it twice a week. More raiding because of less loot = more fun for you!

Because by your logic we might as well drop the loot from raiding to 1 piece per boss for the whole group. If you don't enjoy raiding, but just want to get easy loot, then you shouldn't have a problem with m+ yielding easy loot for yourself as well.

No, the point is that raiders and m+ players probably both do it because they 1) enjoy it, but also because 2) they get rewarded. If the reward feels off compared to the difficulty and time commitment, then the content isn't that fun anymore. I doubt you would raid if it yielded no rewards, no matter how fun it is. If rewards are meaningless for you, then I don't know why you have a problem with high m+ rewards.

And by the way, I am a mythic raider and completely fine with this change as it allows me to raid log - no need to even do the +15 every week if I don't have time.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

I don't care, but i think the ilvl should be at least the same as heroic raids. High end keys are more difficult than heroic raids.

[Rafalga]

pugging a 15 in time is 100000% easier than pugging heroic

Your profile pic. goes so well with your statement that i don't even need to add anything.

[oblakoff]

Perfect example why listening to the glorified "community" is the plague that constantly screws up the game:

BfA: TOO MANY CHORES, PLEASE BLIZZ DO SOMETHING
SL: I HAVE LITERALLY NOTHING TO DO

[DeiVias]

So glad i held off on buying Shadowlands.

Raid or die does not work in 2020.

I'm out, plenty of great games to play that launch around the same time as Shadowlands, rather give them my money.

Don't feel like pushing high level Mythic+ keys to have a 20% chance of being rewarded with an item that is lower ilvl than what i could get rolling my face on a keyboard during a heroic raid.

[Delever]

So glad i held off on buying Shadowlands.

Raid or die does not work in 2020.

I'm out, plenty of great games to play that launch around the same time as Shadowlands, rather give them my money.

Don't feel like pushing high level Mythic+ keys to have a 20% chance of being rewarded with an item that is lower ilvl than what i could get rolling my face on a keyboard during a heroic raid.

Imagine quitting over a 3 ilvl difference from what is essentially spammable content vs a piece of content that is on a weekly lockout that could give you nothing.
Kind glad you re heading off. Dont need more drama like this in the game.

[Asrialol]

I wouldn't mind going back to the times where I could chill outside of raidtimes instead of feel like I should "fill up this AP bar", or "Get more echoes", or this and that.

[jdbond]

This entire game revolves around "mythic raiders". Class design, tuning, gear...

Ofcourse they need to somehow placate the majority that pays the bill so the subpar often useless but average ilvl gear drop from LFR or WQ etc..

No one is happy. So a perfect expansion..

Yeah, Mythic plus was designed as an "alternative" to raiding. But 1000 top players took that an opportunity to "socialize' even less with real people in world and went all out on gear farming. And now Mythic plus is screwed. It is basically new LFR, just a harder version.

So why do we have 3 versions of raid again?

[Eazy]

I wouldn't say that they're not relevant. More, I'd say that M+ will still be main thing(at least at start) to gear up asap. But then? Just do whatever you think it's the best for you, because the ilvl drop would be the same.

Top Tier Raiding should always be the top progression.
It takes the most work. It takes a dedicated group working in unison.
PvP is about solo performance and/or 2-3 man teams.
Mythic+ 5 man teams
Raiding non Mythic is so easy because of scaling.
Mythic raiding is difficult because not only the raid difficulty but the Roster boss as well.
Trying to get 20 solid people who can function as a single unit with same goals is challenging in itself.

Its about time Blizzard got something right. Mythic Raiding is the Top Tier Progression.. Period.

This entire game revolves around "mythic raiders". Class design, tuning, gear...

Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

No one.

Because it doesn't matter. The lower skill content doesn't matter. People are not racing in who kills the first 3 normal bosses ASAP. Why? Because 90% of the WoW community can do it(probably without even any preparation with LFR gear). While less than 1% participate in the world first race. The highest contents require balance, because there only player should matter, his dedication, his commitment, his preparation.

That's the reason why it should be balanced there - on the highest ilvl/skill content.

[Popastique]

Raidlogging expansion? Hell yeah

[Otimus]

I just hope there's some sort of progression for the player that doesn't want to do manually grouped content that doesn't immediately dry up in a week. So long as I can have my path I can whittle away at and feel like I'm making progress toward, I'm happy. That's why I loved MoP so much, aside from the lack of dungeons being useful (but you still felt like they were worth doing to help toward badges and stuff). Since after that, it felt like that kind of player had almost nothing any fun to do unless you only played 1 hour a week or something.

Give me that, and I don't give a fuck if Mythic raiders have like 5,000 ilvls over me.

TBH, if it continues the trend of what it has been doing, I may just sit this one out until it's over, and just do all the content in a couple of months before the next expansion is out. I really miss MoP

[Gaidax]

I guess they want to tighten up the loot rains, raids drop less loot, so they don't want unlimited loot from M+ to be super relevant in that case.

IMO, it's ok-ish, but I'm a mythic raider, so I'm all set there. I imagine people who mainly do M+ are less thrilled there.

[Surfacin9]

This entire game revolves around "mythic raiders". Class design, tuning, gear...

Ofcourse they need to somehow placate the majority that pays the bill so the subpar often useless but average ilvl gear drop from LFR or WQ etc..

No one is happy. So a perfect expansion..

Yeah, Mythic plus was designed as an "alternative" to raiding. But 1000 top players took that an opportunity to "socialize' even less with real people in world and went all out on gear farming. And now Mythic plus is screwed. It is basically new LFR, just a harder version.

So why do we have 3 versions of raid again?

The game is always tuned around the top level content be it PvE or PvP, because at that level the difference between skill of players is very small, since everyone is highly skilled, so it all comes down to the character performance. In lower levels the skill variance is very high where a good player with a shitty class can and will outperform a bad player with a FOTM class. Also fine tuning at that level is completely unnecessary.

Mythic+ wasn't an alternative to raiding. It was there to give raiders something to do on the off nights that they want to play something that still poses a challenge, and something challenging for non-raiders to do. But more importantly (imho) what m+ accomplished is it let the actual dungeons stay relevant throughout the expansion. The content that deisgners and art team work a lot to create doesn't die out within a month, but keeps getting run. Furthermore, new players or alts could much easier get a group since the pool of players running them marginally increased. Its a win-win, but in no way was it supposed or should replace raiding that requires a completely different level of preparation, coordination and execution. Obviously, much higher keys do offer similar to mythic raiding challenges, but they are done by the same mythic raiders, who don't need gear rewards, but a sense of achievement, rankings, bragging rights.

Let's not forget that its spammable content. In a raid you have the exact number of chances to get loot that is equal to the number of bosses + extra roll coins. With m+ you technically have an unlimited number of chances to get loot. So if the rewards were equal to mythic gear, it would ruin the whole raiding scene in terms of balance, tuning and difficulty.

As long as the reward justifies the effort, it shouldn't be a problem.

[NineSpine]

I wouldn't say that they're not relevant. More, I'd say that M+ will still be main thing(at least at start) to gear up asap. But then? Just do whatever you think it's the best for you, because the ilvl drop would be the same.







Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

No one.

Because it doesn't matter. The lower skill content doesn't matter. People are not racing in who kills the first 3 normal bosses ASAP. Why? Because 90% of the WoW community can do it(probably without even any preparation with LFR gear). While less than 1% participate in the world first race. The highest contents require balance, because there only player should matter, his dedication, his commitment, his preparation.

That's the reason why it should be balanced there - on the highest ilvl/skill content.

That is bad game design. Making the game feel like shit for everyone except the top 5% is profoundly stupid.