I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Acelius]

I'm sure not everyone likes them, but it's kinda weird they want to play WoW for something other than that.
I mean you can play local and remote co-op for a whole slew of games, but it's in MMOs where you find the idea of a raid, where you have to coordinate 10-40 people.

Don't get me wrong, I love small group content (dungeons, visions, scenarios / islands etc), I play pvp, I play with pets, I do achievements, I collect mounts and do other solo stuff. But the "purpose" is always finishing the raid on my chosen difficulty - everything else is just that, activities that keep me entertained while reaching my goal. And I'm not deluded, I know a lot of people have other goals, I'm just wondering why they're here - why they want to make THIS specific game type into a solo game or into a small group content game or into a pvp game.

The game has loads to offer, play what you want, but don't oppose the fact that the ultimate end goal will always be seen as raiding by the devs. It's in the nature of the game.

I don't think anyone wants to turn the game into an exclusively PvP game, or an exclusively dungeon game. People just want options. Why does a raider care that other activites generates good gear? If a raider enjoys raiding, and gets good gear, great! If a PvP'er enjoys PvP and gets good gear, great! If M+ runners enjoy M+ and they get good gear, great!

People are so quick so shame others for being rewarded for a certain activity in a game that tries to please everyone. WoW is not a raiding game anymore, get over it.

[Nite92]

"why don't raiders see that": because they are idiots
"and apparently the dev team": because the game director is a raider. see above

How unaware of human behaviour can someone be? If m+ gives better/equal loot there is close to no reward to actually raid, because it is a bigger effort. You still have your m+ progression path, it is just slower, as it should be because you know it is less effort to coordinate 5 people than 20+.

[Delever]

Yeah, spamming the same dungeons 15 times and only getting one, just one item, at random.
Such fun.

Now, i raid so it's not much of an issue in itself but I at least likeled to do a few dungeons here and there for a chance of an upgrade.
That won't be worth the effort anymore. Having a system that just relies on a radom item once a week is not fun. If I want to play the lottery I'd play the lottery not WoW.

But with more choices it is less of a lottery than it is now. I really do not understand how it is any different from now other than it being objectively better. Unless you want titanforging back. That is the only thing making it different. Because reaching the point where end of dungeon loot becomes irrelevant in BfA from M+15s and you have to rely on the weekly chest is incredibly quick. If your issue is the removal of titanforging thats another deal.

[Nite92]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

M+ gear is marginally weaker and you get literally the same reward from the vault for m+ and raiding. What exactly is the issue here?

[Lolites]

You still have your m+ progression path, it is just slower, as it should be because you know it is less effort to coordinate 5 people than 20+.

its not slower, its cut in the middle...
and raids ALREADY give better loot...

[Aggrophobic]

But with more choices it is less of a lottery than it is now. I really do not understand how it is any different from now. Unless you want titanforging back. That is the only thing making it different. Because reaching the point where end of dungeon loot becomes irrelevant in BfA from M+15s and you have to rely on the weekly chest is incredibly quick. If your issue is the removal of titanforging thats another deal.

It's different as none of the gear dropping from M+ even at levels way higher than most will clear in the first few months is actually good enough to use.
It means that raids are the only real way to gear up. M+ is now just something you'll pop in and do maybe, just maybe once a week. Even then, you'll probably be better off doing a raid instead as then you can swap loot around.

Blizzard has gone form an idea about play what you and and get rewarded to: Play the way we want or not at all.

It's not fun.

[Delever]

M+ gear is marginally weaker and you get literally the same reward from the vault for m+ and raiding. What exactly is the issue here?

Not to mention ilvl gaps are now going to be smaller, most probably meaning that we go back to the gearing days of tbc-wrath where a fresh max lvl is of course weaker than a geared max level but does not feel like he is 5 expansions behind like in bfa. A player in uldir would do something like 29k dps while people in mythic gear now can get up to 130k. This should not be the case by the looks of stats and ilvl diferences in SL.
Therefore a marginal 3 ilvl diference should not be a huge deal to anyone to not do M+.

[Aggrophobic]

M+ gear is marginally weaker and you get literally the same reward from the vault for m+ and raiding. What exactly is the issue here?

It's much weaker and most will not clear a +14 for many, many months, if ever while HC raids are just a cakewalk.

[Delever]

its not slower, its cut in the middle...
and raids ALREADY give better loot...

No they dont. Only mythic does which does not represent the sources from which 90% of the playerbase gets their gear from.

[Aggrophobic]

Not to mention ilvl gaps are now going to be smaller, most probably meaning that we go back to the gearing days of tbc-wrath where a fresh max lvl is of course weaker than a geared max level but does not feel like he is 5 expansions behind like in bfa. A player in uldir would do something like 29k dps while people in mythic gear now can get up to 130k. This should not be the case by the looks of stats and ilvl diferences in SL.
Therefore a marginal 3 ilvl diference should not be a huge deal to anyone to not do M+.

A fully optimized character vs a just boosted one when scaling was active in the beta could do 2-3 or even 4 times as much.
Don't get your hopes up.

[Lolites]

No they dont. Only mythic does which does not represent the sources from which 90% of the playerbase gets their gear from.

end of run from M+ reward ends at 465, raid rewards from HC end at 470...
number 465 is smaller than 470, in case you dont know...

and i dont even mention bis azerite armor and trinkets,as that might be different in SL

[Delever]

It's different as none of the gear dropping from M+ even at levels way higher than most will clear in the first few months is actually good enough to use.
It means that raids are the only real way to gear up. M+ is now just something you'll pop in and do maybe, just maybe once a week. Even then, you'll probably be better off doing a raid instead as then you can swap loot around.

Blizzard has gone form an idea about play what you and and get rewarded to: Play the way we want or not at all.

It's not fun.

Ok so lets say you jump in raid first week and get shoulders and boots. Yay shoulders and boots are now 216 ilvl. The rest of my gear is still 200. Why would I not want to do some M+ for get some 213 gear for the rest of my slots? Also if that 216 shoulder is vers, mastery and I wanted crit haste and I get a crit haste 213 shoulder, with how marginal the stat diference is in SL for 3 ilvls I m pretty sure I ll slap on the 213.

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end of run from M+ reward ends at 465, raid rewards from HC end at 470...
number 465 is smaller than 470, in case you dont know...

The last 2 bosses do not cover even 20% of your gear slots. The rest of the gear slots have to be filled by something. In case you dont know.

[Frozenbeef]

After 15 years playing the game, raiding is not what i find fun anymore. What i would like more is more difficult content that isn't raiding like for example the legion mage tower or the org/sw 5+ mask visions, which handled rewards great. If you did harder versions you got a better reward.

[Lolites]

Ok so lets say you jump in raid first week and get shoulders and boots. Yay shoulders and boots are now 216 ilvl. The rest of my gear is still 200. Why would I not want to do some M+ for get some 213 gear for the rest of my slots? Also if that 216 shoulder is vers, mastery and I wanted crit haste and I get a crit haste 213 shoulder, with how marginal the stat diference is in SL for 3 ilvls I m pretty sure I ll slap on the 213.

- - - Updated - - -



The last 2 bosses do not cover even 20% of your gear slots. The rest of the gear slots have to be filled by something. In case you dont know.

yes, for example by killing first few bosses in mythic which are usualy quite simple...

if you wanted best gear you ALYWAS had to raid, making the difference from M+ even bigger does not change that it just screws over some people...

[Nite92]

its not slower, its cut in the middle...
and raids ALREADY give better loot...

They reduced the spamable reward and increased the weekly reward (by alot). On avg you should be decked out in mythic ilvl gear from m+ 3x faster now. I'd say this is a buff, but what do I know.

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After 15 years playing the game, raiding is not what i find fun anymore. What i would like more is more difficult content that isn't raiding like for example the legion mage tower or the org/sw 5+ mask visions, which handled rewards great. If you did harder versions you got a better reward.

Torghast /10char

[Tronski]

But it no longer is. You can get mythic ilvl gear from easier sources ever since legion. The mythic raider just gets to do it faster because he engages in content that is more difficult. I dont think this is unfair. Humans will be humans and what drives a human to do something is motive. And before you say "fun", fun is a motive but its more complex than you think. What makes a difficult raid fun is a multitude of things. It is the challenge, the incentive to get the best rewards and the people you play with. All those are interconnected. Diminishing the reward directly diminishes the fun as one of the 3 aspects of what made it fun for those people is taken out.

The trinkets of raiding has always been superior, with a very few exceptions.

I know and understand how gear is a part of the package, but it's frustrating to me how most people refuse to acknowledge that gear is nothing but a soft-nerfing of content (in some cases transmog). What you are celebrating each and every time you or someone in your group get a nice piece of equipment is "Now boss gets a little bit easier" or "now boss is almost possible". The people and challenges are still there even if the loot is not. Celebrating that everyone did a little better is much better (IMO) than celebrating luck and that everyone had higher numbers - and if higher numbers is an absolute necessity, then Buffs like the Icecrown buff that increased stats for the whole raid was a good solution.

We raid 4-5 hours a week in Classic, there's not really much of a challenge, we don't really need the gear we farm, but it's fun regardless to be decked out in BiS. Still, we have 110-160 people raiding every week because we like playing with each other.

In MoP I played challenge modes a lot, mostly because it was fun, I helped friends, I pushed timers, despite there were no rewards beyond the initial transmog rewards. What I enjoyed the most about it was that I could freely choose which character/class I was playing at any given time, because gear was never really a part of the equation. If I needed more of a secondary stat, then 5m heroic dungeons were usually the source.

I'd love to be able to play the class I want to play each week, even in Mythic raiding, wouldn't you?

[Nite92]

It's much weaker and most will not clear a +14 for many, many months, if ever while HC raids are just a cakewalk.

It is 3 ilvl weaker, and don't you agree that the thing that requires the most effort should reap the best rewards. M+ is just a little slower because your main reward always was the chest, and this reward was even buffed, by a lot.

[Lolites]

They reduced the spamable reward and increased the weekly reward (by alot). On avg you should be decked out in mythic ilvl gear from m+ 3x faster now. I'd say this is a buff, but what do I know.

eh... what? if you are lucky it will take 16 weeks, as of now if you are lucky it takes... 16 weeks... you still only get one item per week, so the luck is partialy eliminated, but it still takes ages, nothing changed about weekly, well 14 is enough now, thats mildly positive change but not worth what we are loosing...

[Thundering]

well retail wow only has one good part to it and that is raiding.

[Xath]

The whole 'I mythic raid, I *deserve* the best gear!!*" is now completely worthless, imo. If it's so special, why is it being sold to anyone who wants to put out the gold. There is nothing special about mythic raid gear anymore. It should be given out via gameplay to all classes of players, since it's so un-special that it can be sold to anyone who wants it.

Raid gear has been sold since vanilla it being sold hasn't diminished it in any way. M+ gear is also sold and has been since it's inception so has pvp. About the only gear not sold is world quests so apparently that is the true end game lolz.