I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Tronski]

But that's simply not true in mythic raiding. You say:

when you are having trouble with certain mechanics, better gear will in 98% of the cases solve the problem

.. and this is simply not true. You cannot just put it that way. In almost no scenario will gear alone solve the issue. Gear will help you solve the issue but you still have to combine it with getting better at the mechanics. So you point about gear reducing the meaning of mythic raiding is just bullshit.

Also, another aspect of getting better gear is that it simply feels good. Feeling the power progression of your character feels good. Being able to make a dps check more comfortably than before feels good. But that doesn't mean that gear can solve mechanics alone. It can help you with dps/hps checks but that's only a small part of it.

Mythic Jaina is comfortably being killed by 10 people in good gear now. If you look in your group finder, you will probably find a group called something like "Mythic Jaina Cheese". Please tell me how these people got so incredibly good at the game that they can now do with half the people, because I really want to apply this to myself without grinding gear.

it's only partly a joke, had there been a raid after Ny'alotha, N'zoth would have been cheesed by gear in a matter of months as well.

To this you will most certainly argue "But we are talking about within a raid tier!" - to which I answer: when you have grinded M+15 for 6 months and you are decked out in max ilvl titanforged corrupted gear and you do 10 times the numbers you did 7 months ago, What's really the difference? You will always hit a point where you can Almost ignore any mechanic that isn't autoKO.

You are free to tell yourself that your skills are improving endlessly, that the sky is the limit and that gear has nothing to do with it if that floats your boat.
You do you.

[Yriel]

How unaware of human behaviour can someone be? If m+ gives better/equal loot there is close to no reward to actually raid, because it is a bigger effort. You still have your m+ progression path, it is just slower, as it should be because you know it is less effort to coordinate 5 people than 20+.

I mean, playing the whole game is a big effort, what do i get in RL for puting up with that?

[Valette]

If we're allowed to heal our pets and still get the top reward I'd be down for it. I love pet battles but I'm not fond of the dungeons because there's some strats that require a specific pet, and if you have bad RNG you can still lose and end up having to start the entire thing from the beginning again.

Theres a "cheat" to combat this. You can just log out -> log into an alt -> heal your pets -> log back into your main -> try again

[Lolites]

Mythic Jaina is comfortably being killed by 10 people in good gear now.

i didnt know mythic Jaina is still current content...
why didnt you got further in time? mythic Blackrock Foundry is soloable now!

im pretty sure when someone speaks about better gear helping or not they mean current mythic raid, not something year or more old...

[Tronski]

No, no, no. Most people just disagreed with the idea. Me included. But if Blizzard decided to make it so I would still do mythic raiding even though I would still think it was a bad idea. Just because people disagree with the idea doesn't mean they would not raid mythic. So in relation to your quote:

I recently did a thread regarding gear scaling in mythic raids akin to Timewalking or Challenge modes, and it turned out that not a single person in that discussion would raid unless said raiding eventually would give them the necessary power to progress in that raid difficulty.

.. is a lie. Not a single person thought your idea was good but you cannot conclude from that, that nobody would raid.

Except that most of the counterargument literally was, and I paraphrase: "I would not play this", "Raiding scene dies if there is no reason to go back", "I need a sense of progression" or "I like the soft-nerfing element of gear" <- This one is actually a very good argument, and in Icecrown that problem was solved with an optional buff.
The rest of the arguments were: "you are stupid and don't understand this game".

I'm not gonna make this thread about that, so I'm gonna ignore any further comments about that thread and/or what you personally thought about it. I just referred to is as anecdotal evidence that most players (you specifically may not represent most) needs rewards that makes them stronger in order to keep raiding the same content for 12 months.

I myself am totally on the other end. I have been raiding Molten Core weekly for a year now, I'm not going to get any upgrades there, but some of the people I raid with might be extremely lucky and get bindings for their Thunderfuries. That would be cool for them, but not something we need in order to keep farming AQ so that I maybe can get an upgrade once every month or two.

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i didnt know mythic Jaina is still current content...
why didnt you got further in time? mythic Blackrock Foundry is soloable now!

im pretty sure when someone speaks about better gear helping or not they mean current mythic raid, not something year or more old...

Well played, sir. Well played.

Here's the rest of the post you quoted. I know you left it out on purpose, but others might not.

it's only partly a joke, had there been a raid after Ny'alotha, N'zoth would have been cheesed by gear in a matter of months as well.

To this you will most certainly argue "But we are talking about within a raid tier!" - to which I answer: when you have grinded M+15 for 6 months and you are decked out in max ilvl titanforged corrupted gear and you do 10 times the numbers you did 7 months ago, What's really the difference? You will always hit a point where you can Almost ignore any mechanic that isn't autoKO.

[Vinictus]

Oh shoot, I guess you missed the meeting where we went back on that one.

Seriously, there isn't a collective mind at play here, different people enjoy different things, there is not, will not or ever be a consensus on what is best. Play what you find fun and leave it at that. If you don't find it fun anymore, stop playing; every time you log into the game and renew your subscription you're making a vote to Blizzard to say you are OK with the game.

[Otimus]

So long as there's a decent character progression curve without having to raid above normal or do mythic+ dungeons, I don't care if Mythic players have 100000000 ilvls over me. There hasn't been a decent curve since MoP.

[Lolites]

Except that most of the counterargument literally was, and I paraphrase: "I would not play this", "Raiding scene dies if there is no reason to go back", "I need a sense of progression" or "I like the soft-nerfing element of gear" <- This one is actually a very good argument, and in Icecrown that problem was solved with an optional buff.
The rest of the arguments were: "you are stupid and don't understand this game".

I'm not gonna make this thread about that, so I'm gonna ignore any further comments about that thread and/or what you personally thought about it. I just referred to is as anecdotal evidence that most players (you specifically may not represent most) needs rewards that makes them stronger in order to keep raiding the same content for 12 months.

I myself am totally on the other end. I have been raiding Molten Core weekly for a year now, I'm not going to get any upgrades there, but some of the people I raid with might be extremely lucky and get bindings for their Thunderfuries. That would be cool for them, but not something we need in order to keep farming AQ so that I maybe can get an upgrade once every month or two.

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Well played, sir. Well played.

Here's the rest of the post you quoted. I know you left it out on purpose, but others might not.

tbh, i couldnt continue reading on account of how stupid the begining was mya bad

[Aggrophobic]

It is 3 ilvl weaker, and don't you agree that the thing that requires the most effort should reap the best rewards. M+ is just a little slower because your main reward always was the chest, and this reward was even buffed, by a lot.

It's normal gear, it's 2.5 tiers lower than what you get in mythic.

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Ok so lets say you jump in raid first week and get shoulders and boots. Yay shoulders and boots are now 216 ilvl. The rest of my gear is still 200. Why would I not want to do some M+ for get some 213 gear for the rest of my slots? Also if that 216 shoulder is vers, mastery and I wanted crit haste and I get a crit haste 213 shoulder, with how marginal the stat diference is in SL for 3 ilvls I m pretty sure I ll slap on the 213.

You get one item per dungeon so it's not all that likely that you'll get any items at all and after a week or two m+ will be utterly pointless.
It was like this already but only for mythic raiders. It makes no sense doing the same for HC, especially when M+ is such a huge succsess. But hey, this whole expansion is a bag of super bad design decisions so why not adda few more, huh?

[keldarepewpew]

It's normal gear, it's 2.5 tiers lower than what you get in mythic.

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You get one item per dungeon so it's not all that likely that you'll get any items at all and after a week or two m+ will be utterly pointless.
It was like this already but only for mythic raiders. It makes no sense doing the same for HC, especially when M+ is such a huge succsess. But hey, this whole expansion is a bag of super bad design decisions so why not adda few more, huh?

Because of mythic plus endless repeatable high tier loot everyone and his mother was forced to farm it like crazy. Good riddance i dont want to be f orced to spend time inside of mythic plus just so i can raid/pvp.

[kaminaris]

I really enjoy getting nice shiny loot - but the idea of raiding PURELY for the loots is just fucking crazy, imo. Would i raid without the loot? probably not. At one point in time i raided with a group i really didnt like, purely because they were one of the only options for raiding heroic (no mythic) on the realm i was on. At that time, my focus shifted purely to "can i get enough loot to join a guild i actually want to play with?", and that mentality lasted about 2 raids before logic kicked in and i bailed.

I joined a guild of players i liked, but a bit behind in progression, and we managed to surpass the other guild quite easily, as they kept losing players, while we had a nice dedicated group of raiders who genuinely enjoyed playing together.

long story short, if someone raids purely for loot i just cant see them lasting long, i certainly didnt.

Well because it was about something different I mentioned earlier, mythic raids don't need loot that is absolutely best in the game that no game mode can ever surpass. If it would be on par with high keys then it would be fine. Same goes for PVP. Just tune the chances to be roughly the same vs time investment.

And right now in SL other progression paths simply sucks donkey cocks. M+ gearing is simply dead.

[JustaWarlock]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

Because in BFA, M+ mostly invalidated raiding.

[Eapoe]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

There’s nothing stopping you from not raiding.
Maybe Blizzard found that regardless of the amount of content they put into a game that the high end players will have to spend hours upon hours of time playing to be at the best they can be for progression, while all that content still caused casual players to bitch and moan that there’s nothing to do. If people aren’t going to do the content while complaining they don’t like to do it, then why should Blizzard include it?
Maybe we’ve had 4 years of constant things to do with WQs, PvP, m+ spams, raids, and grinding for things like legos, AP (both Legion and BfA), and gear that Blizzard decides to give people a bit of a break.
Who really knows? I, for one, welcome a bit of raid log mentality as it gives me time to do other things without feeling like I’m missing out or falling behind.

[kaminaris]

The point I'm trying to make is that gear progression has become systematic over the years, and it's tiresome. When getting gear is the whole point of the game, I just don't want to feel like I've peaked if I'm not skilled at what shouldn't be a skill-based action RPG, or if I am skilled I shouldn't also have to get an equally skilled group of friends who get together on a schedule to progress. In a fantasy world filled with magic, adventuring shouldn't boil down to raid, raid harder, raid hardest, wait for patch, repeat. Every time I log in, no matter what I can or want to do, I should be able to feel like I could become a more powerful adventurer no matter what I am doing, that a new legendary item could be right around the next corner.

Agreed with first part but second about leggos is a no-go. Legion legedaries were fucking retarded design.
I don't want static boring loot tho.
But good loot shouldn't be behind raids and raids only.

[Cazze]

Before writing these comments do you even take half a second to think? Please tell me how other people die. How it works is:
-M+15 rewards 210 ilvl gear at the end. This has NO LOCKOUT AND CAN BE SPAMMED
-Heroic raiding rewards 213 ilvl gear WITH A WEEKLY LOCKOUT
-Mythic raiding rewards 226 gear WITH A WEEKLY LOCKOUT
-Weekly chest from M+15 rewards 226 gear WITH A WEEKLY LOCKOUT

With the above information one can conclude the following:
-A heroic raider during the first few weeks of an expansion who does not do M+ will be significantly less geared than a person who spams M+ since the M+ person will have endless access to 210 ilvl gear while the raider will have gear that is only 3 ilvls higher yet on a weekly lockout.
-A heroic raider who also engages in M+ will probably be ahead of a pure M+ player DURING THE FIRST WEEKS due to having gear access from both sources.
-A mythic raider engaging in the most difficult content in the game will be more geared than a heroic raider and a M+ player DURING THE FIRST WEEKS of the expansion, even moreso if they do M+ (which I assume mythic raiders do by default)
-Eventually the M+ player will have the same ilvl as the mythic raider while doing significantly less difficult content. The mythic raider will maybe enjoy a 1-2 ilvl bonus fromt he last 2 bosses of mythic having higher ilvl.

CONCLUSION: All players can reach the highest ilvl through multiple forms of content. Players then have the choice between challegning themselves and engaging in multiple types of content to get it faster, or doing easier content and less types of content and getting it slower.
I think this is the best of both worlds at this point. People who do harder content and engage in more types of content should be rewarded.

PS: If anything... why are people forced to do M+ or die? Mythic raiding is not accessible to most players therefore making the audience who does it outliers STATISTICALLY. Out of the content that is accessible to the highest % of the playerbase (heroic raiding and M+) M+ rewards significantly better rewards than heroic raiding at the end of the week.

OK mate, look: you seem to be the one who hasn't thought things through. What's more, I even agree with you!

My comment was ironic, and more precisely, making fun of people who shout that the expac will be "raid or die", which we both know is totally not the case.

[kaminaris]

Let’s see. I don’t think it will happen as you say. There are A LOT of people who do M+ simply because we like pushing keys and doing dungeons.

They can push dungeons because of gear they had. Now its gone so your power is considerably lower.

[RobertMugabe]

but PUGing anything can be a nightmare, even LFR or M+0, bcs people are morons, neither M+15 or HC raid is difficult, but at worst they are the same level of dificulty, and HC raids late bosses ALREADY give better loot, WHY make M+ even worse? as it is now, you can run thousand M+ and someone who will kill last two bosses of HC nyalotha will still get better loot... whats wrong with that system?

but my issue is different: WHO gains anything from this change other than sense of superiority for some raiders?
people who do only 1 M+ weekly still will,
people who only want raid can, as best gear is still rewarded via raids
people who want to do both will loose some potential rewards from M+
people who want to gear via M+ only will take absolute ages bcs they will only get high end loot once a week (gl not getting useless shit even with 3 options)
people who only want to push keys will have to do raids for gear or push lower keys (well tbf they had to anyway, even now)

so WHO benefits from this change? please tell me, as i cant think of anybody...

Raids felt rather useless in BfA considering how they removed tier sets and how the gear you could've gotten from let's say heroic was rather easily obtainable from other sources (ilvl460+).

Yes it is true that m+ pugs can go very wrong and all that stuff, but at least you can keep doing them all week long and they're pretty easy to assemble and get going. Just starting a new raid can take a very long time and often they will just fall apart before you can fill it up. And even then you screw up once and several people leave and then you can continue looking for new people which can again take a while until you find the necessary people.

All in all, raids are a thing that you can only really do ONCE per week and they're much harder compared compared to what else the game has to offer, hence they need to offer both unique rewards AND overall better gear in order to for them be worth it. That's how it's been since the game came out. Also from a purely gameplay and lore PoV, raids are also the place where you fight the real bad guys, while dungeons have always served as more of a setup for these raids.

The only people who might be badly affected by this are gonna be people who are really into competitive m+ and pushing keys, but these people would raid and pvp and all that stuff anyways, since otherwise you'd fall behind anyways.

As for the amount of gear you get per week: this is a thing that affects the entire game, not just m+. Raids are affected too with fewer loot drops. Blizzard really does not want shower you in gear anymore, since they've removed all the RNG elements. They're trying to make obtaining gear somewhat special and rare again, hence why you're gonna see much less loot drops across the board.

The ONLY thing I can get behind is that M+ in SL should drop gear better than heroic if you're doing really high keys, but it should always remain lower than mythic raids.

[Usernameforforums]

This guy wants world of warcraft to be like diablo where you can kill a critter and have a mythic quality bis item to the equivalent of a primal in diablo

[SirBeef]

You know that best content depends on the content that you play? It's not only Mythic raiding. Good luck competing in PvP without PvE gear in BFA.



But why not just fix it, instead of making it worse for those that enjoy it? Just make M+ loot locked behind weekly resets like the Vision loot. So looking at current SL M+ end of dungeon loot table it would look something like this:
- your first +15 drop: 210
- your second +15 drop: 207 (reward from 12-14 keys)
- your third +15 drop: 204 (reward from 10-11 keys)

That way loot would be locked weekly, but there would still be some loot every run. It would also mean that loot from end of dungeon could be higher than what it is right now (for example mythic raid ilvl for +20 or +25) because you wouldn't be able to grind the rewards. Combined with the fact that you have random keys and than random drop from whole dungeon it would be quite close to how you gear up from raids.



So let's remove all loot from raid, raiders can raid because they enjoy it.

Oh I know, I was repeating that term because it was used in reference to raiding.

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That only really works if each place has its own gear.

It kind of does. WQ gear is different from dungeon/M+ gear, which is different than PvP gear which is different than raiding gear. But I know when you you meant.

[tomten]

15 years worth of people complaining about this ass crap and Blizzard still are still giving +-0 fucks about PvPers possibly... not wanting to raid.

It goes both ways, im so tired of them shoving pvp down my throat I cant even vomit anymore...