I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Samuraijake]

pretty sure raiding is harder and more time consuming than mythic plus. People spend days/weeks clearing final bosses with things like 100+ attempts. You wont find Mythic kil jaden in a dungeon... nor should you have access to his loot in it.

[ID811717]

The only people who might be badly affected by this are gonna be people who are really into competitive m+ and pushing keys, but these people would raid and pvp and all that stuff anyways, since otherwise you'd fall behind anyways.

It's not that bad unless you want to be a part of, like, world's top 20 best M+ teams. I have played high keys at different levels of dedication over the years (in some tiers I did raids and PvP, in others I only did M+), and could always remain at something like "0.001% of playerbase, but far below rank 1 keys" level. Obviously, there are still downsides. If you do want to play close to where top 20 teams are, you wanted the ilvl 485 loot from 2 last mythic bosses, at least for the extra stamina so you survive more mechanics. But, as you said, that is a fair trade-off to expect.

I don't think the Shadowlands loot system will change much in the long run. Non-raiders will gear up well from weekly chests, and still be just a bit behind because of not having access to the loot from the last 2 mythic bosses. The main differences are:
- Start of a new season will be much more annoying, because even "non-raiders" will have the pressure to farm Heroic (and probably even the last 2 bosses in Normal) every week. It was always necessary for min-max, but it seems now we'll have to farm the easy raid difficulties for a longer time at the start of a season.
- Catch-up on new characters will take much longer. If you created a new char half-way through the season, you lost on many weekly chests and Normal/HC/mythic raid lockouts. In BfA: only weekly chests and mythic lockouts were truly lost. You can think that it's good because your effort to gear up matters, and a random newcommer cannot effortlessly catch up with you within a week or two. But there's also a bad side to it - if your old skilled friend decided to reroll or come back to the game mid-tier, there will be more obstacles before you can start playing a challenging content (top PvP, top M+, and top raids) together.

[Lolites]

Raids felt rather useless in BfA considering how they removed tier sets and how the gear you could've gotten from let's say heroic was rather easily obtainable from other sources (ilvl460+).

Yes it is true that m+ pugs can go very wrong and all that stuff, but at least you can keep doing them all week long and they're pretty easy to assemble and get going. Just starting a new raid can take a very long time and often they will just fall apart before you can fill it up. And even then you screw up once and several people leave and then you can continue looking for new people which can again take a while until you find the necessary people.

All in all, raids are a thing that you can only really do ONCE per week and they're much harder compared compared to what else the game has to offer, hence they need to offer both unique rewards AND overall better gear in order to for them be worth it. That's how it's been since the game came out. Also from a purely gameplay and lore PoV, raids are also the place where you fight the real bad guys, while dungeons have always served as more of a setup for these raids.

The only people who might be badly affected by this are gonna be people who are really into competitive m+ and pushing keys, but these people would raid and pvp and all that stuff anyways, since otherwise you'd fall behind anyways.

As for the amount of gear you get per week: this is a thing that affects the entire game, not just m+. Raids are affected too with fewer loot drops. Blizzard really does not want shower you in gear anymore, since they've removed all the RNG elements. They're trying to make obtaining gear somewhat special and rare again, hence why you're gonna see much less loot drops across the board.

The ONLY thing I can get behind is that M+ in SL should drop gear better than heroic if you're doing really high keys, but it should always remain lower than mythic raids.

peopl eleaving doesnt mean you cant progres in raid, as you an invite new people, not so much in m+... someone leaves? you are done, time wasted, no reward...
you cant even kick underperforming morons in M+... so yeah, you can spam whole week, but actualy you can still get nothing out of it...

as for who is affected - i think other than "pushers" id say people who play multiple characters will be pretty affected...

if the amount of raid gear is adequately lower, ok, but i still think heroic level of gear should be achievable via M+, if no other way than rly the simple increase of scaling ceiling to +20, and yes, heroic ("upper" heroic) from +20 would be fine, doesnt even need to go above that

[Kaver]

They can push dungeons because of gear they had. Now its gone so your power is considerably lower.

We are getting 226 gear each week which if you get 3 options will most likely always be useful. Pretty quickly we will be mythic geared just by doing +14 keys. And to be honest, if players cant complete +14 keys without already being 226 geared then they don’t really deserve that gear in the first place. My opinion. I don’t really see any issues with the new system. Decent players will get good gear and there is plenty of incentive in my eyes to run M+. And I love that we will have more time for alts.

[Fartoo]

We don't see it, because there's nothing to be seen.

Highest item level gear rewards should come from two sources: mythic raiding, and high rated PvP. Everything else should be lower. That is the most difficult content, and as such should give the player the best reward.

I love that they brought back the system where raiding is rewarded.

Now only if they removed PvP scaling as well, so that I can once again go walk all over plebs in pleb gear, I would play it non-stop.

Effort needs to be recognized. If one player busts their ass playing mythic raids or high rated PvP, they should be adequately rewarded instead of how it is at the moment, where players who spend less time in game and put in less effort are being rewarded. That simply doesn't feel too good.

[ihate2beapessimist]

As a mythic raider: The new system sucks like hell. I will log in twice a week for raiding progression and one quick 14 and thats it. Fuck this new system, there is literally nothing wortwhile to do once you set a foot in mythic.

Isnt that what you guys want though, I thought mythic raiders only care about progression. I doubt you guys have time for alts, pet battles, or any of the other casual crap the game has to offer.

[Tesshin20]

Well because it was about something different I mentioned earlier, mythic raids don't need loot that is absolutely best in the game that no game mode can ever surpass. If it would be on par with high keys then it would be fine. Same goes for PVP. Just tune the chances to be roughly the same vs time investment.

And right now in SL other progression paths simply sucks donkey cocks. M+ gearing is simply dead.

I have no idea in what universe that statement would make sense. You still get mythic raid level loot from the weekly chest. You will still gear up faster than mythic raiders. Most of the time.

[Sorrowseer]

Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear. Otherwise there's no reason to raid and can spam M+ instead.

Cannot agree more, thread is over after this post imo.

[Tesshin20]

Some people are complaining about this on a level that they can't really be taken seriously any more.

They only reduced the itemlevel from the chest at the end of the dungeon. You will still get itemlevel equal to mythic raiding for doing a 14 from the weekly chest. On top of that you can now pick the right item you want from the weekly chest if you do a lot of mythic+, So your gearing will be even faster. And some of you make this to mean that mythic+ is dead?

To get some perspective on this.

When I raided mythic in BoD, we would spend countless of hours analyzing logs, min-max everything, deal with the torture of losing people, recruiting new people, etc. Jaina we spent like 500 pulls on mythic to get her down. 5 numbered digits of gold on repairs on consumables.

Then a girlfriend of a guildmember, she logged in couple of hours a week to do mythic+. When we killed Jaina after months of wipes, I had 416 itemlevel, and she had 418, not even setting a foot into raiding.

Can anyone tell me that makes sense? There has been less and less incentive to mythic raid after the introduction of mythic+ so this is a very welcome change.

[Restors]

You will still gear up faster than mythic raiders. Most of the time.

Wait a minute... How in the hell is that even possible? Weekly chest only allows you to pick one item. Or are you talking about casual heroic guilds that wanna down a mythic boss and therefor calling them "mythic raiders" ?

[Tesshin20]

Wait a minute... How in the hell is that even possible? Weekly chest only allows you to pick one item. Or are you talking about casual heroic guilds that wanna down a mythic boss and therefor calling them "mythic raiders" ?

In Shadowlands, you will get to choose an item that you want from the chest. So you can actually target items a lot more that is an actual upgrade. You can't do that in raiding. You might go weeks in mythic raiding without getting an upgrade.

[Aggrophobic]

Because of mythic plus endless repeatable high tier loot everyone and his mother was forced to farm it like crazy. Good riddance i dont want to be f orced to spend time inside of mythic plus just so i can raid/pvp.

Nah, it was a thing fora few weeks maybe if you pushed hard and the main grind was tied to weapons and necks, not items.
In any case, killing it off as rewarding content is rather odd to say the least.

Oh and if you want all the options for your weekly you'll have to do just as many only you'll get no extra rewards for it, just more options and the end of the week (still just one item). This means that if your guild requiered you to farm them in BfA you'll still have to farm them now only to get way less rewards.

So you know, the same amout of grind but less fun and with less rewards.

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In Shadowlands, you will get to choose an item that you want from the chest. So you can actually target items a lot more that is an actual upgrade. You can't do that in raiding. You might go weeks in mythic raiding without getting an upgrade.

Nah, you can't target anything. They are still very random and you get one item that you can't swap to someone that might actually need it.
In raids you get more items and you're also able to swap them around.

[Nnyco]

Considering the weekly chest still gives you mythic ilvl gear your argument is invalid.

[kaminaris]

We are getting 226 gear each week which if you get 3 options will most likely always be useful. Pretty quickly we will be mythic geared just by doing +14 keys. And to be honest, if players cant complete +14 keys without already being 226 geared then they don’t really deserve that gear in the first place. My opinion. I don’t really see any issues with the new system. Decent players will get good gear and there is plenty of incentive in my eyes to run M+. And I love that we will have more time for alts.

Why people dont check actual math and speak like "will most likely always be useful" ? Do the math first. And remember about loot pool from M+ vs loot pool from raids.

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I have no idea in what universe that statement would make sense. You still get mythic raid level loot from the weekly chest. You will still gear up faster than mythic raiders. Most of the time.

Do the math before sprouting nonsense.

[Aggrophobic]

Wait a minute... How in the hell is that even possible? Weekly chest only allows you to pick one item. Or are you talking about casual heroic guilds that wanna down a mythic boss and therefor calling them "mythic raiders" ?

You won't. You'll get decked out in gear lower ilvl than a mythic raider in 13-14 weeks if you only do M+ and thats IF you're lucky enough to get only the slots you need.
More likely is that'll it'll take 20+ weeks and your gear will still be way less optimized than a mythic raider. It's also not likely that even most mythic raiders will get a mythic level chest the first few weeks so you'll probbaly have to add another 3-4 weeks to thoes 20.

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Considering the weekly chest still gives you mythic ilvl gear your argument is invalid.

One item per week that you might need, yeah. You need 12-14 items and of different slots.
Thats if you can clear a as well. Most will not and especailly not players who only do HC.

[jellmoo]

Because the difficulty is nowhere near being the same. If a m+15 would be as difficult or more difficult than clearing a mythic raid then I'd agree with you.

The difficulty should match the reward, the weekly chest is kind of shit in this regard.

But that doesn't need to be the case. You can have different content types being difficult in different ways offer equivalent rewards. I'm not saying that *as is*, the rewards should be the same. Just that Raiding need not be the only path to the top end gear.

[Fistfighter]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

and ironically, that's what made WoD so great, just being able to raid all the time (in the two of the BEST raids in the history of WoW)

[Tesshin20]

Why people dont check actual math and speak like "will most likely always be useful" ? Do the math first. And remember about loot pool from M+ vs loot pool from raids.

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Do the math before sprouting nonsense.

The math is still in the benefit of someone only doing mythic+, compared to someone doing only mythic raiding. By far. We see this in the game currently all the time. Working with recruitment in a mythic raiding guild I do actually have first hand experience in this.

[Super Kami Dende]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

Mythic + was a gearing Path for top tier raiding. Mythic Raid end bosses will always be considered the top content thus give the best gear because they are the highest player number participation. If you could get everything in 5man mythics what would ever be the point of raiding 20man.

[Tesshin20]

You won't. You'll get decked out in gear lower ilvl than a mythic raider in 13-14 weeks if you only do M+ and thats IF you're lucky enough to get only the slots you need.
More likely is that'll it'll take 20+ weeks and your gear will still be way less optimized than a mythic raider. It's also not likely that even most mythic raiders will get a mythic level chest the first few weeks so you'll probbaly have to add another 3-4 weeks to thoes 20.

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One item per week that you might need, yeah. You need 12-14 items and of different slots.
Thats if you can clear a as well. Most will not and especailly not players who only do HC.

Completely false. If you take a fresh level 120 and make them do only mythic + for the same amount of hours as someone who is fresh 120 and put them into mythic raiding, the guy doing only mythic+ will reach the highest item level faster than the mythic raider 10 out 10 times.

If your only reason to play the game is to get character power. Raiding is not worth it because of mythic+