I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Nnyco]

One item per week that you might need, yeah. You need 12-14 items and of different slots.
Thats if you can clear a as well. Most will not and especailly not players who only do HC.

And if you raid mythic, you get 1-2 items per week from bosses.

[Kehego]

Some people are complaining about this on a level that they can't really be taken seriously any more.

They only reduced the itemlevel from the chest at the end of the dungeon. You will still get itemlevel equal to mythic raiding for doing a 14 from the weekly chest. On top of that you can now pick the right item you want from the weekly chest if you do a lot of mythic+, So your gearing will be even faster. And some of you make this to mean that mythic+ is dead?

To get some perspective on this.

When I raided mythic in BoD, we would spend countless of hours analyzing logs, min-max everything, deal with the torture of losing people, recruiting new people, etc. Jaina we spent like 500 pulls on mythic to get her down. 5 numbered digits of gold on repairs on consumables.

Then a girlfriend of a guildmember, she logged in couple of hours a week to do mythic+. When we killed Jaina after months of wipes, I had 416 itemlevel, and she had 418, not even setting a foot into raiding.

Can anyone tell me that makes sense? There has been less and less incentive to mythic raid after the introduction of mythic+ so this is a very welcome change.

not disagreeing with your sentiment but that sounds like warforging shenanigans more than anything.

[jellmoo]

Mythic + was a gearing Path for top tier raiding. Mythic Raid end bosses will always be considered the top content thus give the best gear because they are the highest player number participation. If you could get everything in 5man mythics what would ever be the point of raiding 20man.

Why does the number of people involved matter? You can have two paths be difficult in different ways and offer similar rewards.

[ID811717]

To get some perspective on this.

When I raided mythic in BoD, we would spend countless of hours analyzing logs, min-max everything, deal with the torture of losing people, recruiting new people, etc. Jaina we spent like 500 pulls on mythic to get her down. 5 numbered digits of gold on repairs on consumables.

Then a girlfriend of a guildmember, she logged in couple of hours a week to do mythic+. When we killed Jaina after months of wipes, I had 416 itemlevel, and she had 418, not even setting a foot into raiding.

I don't think the casual girlfriend posed any threat to your raid spot; did she? You are comparing apples and oranges. You could just as well cherry pick an example of a raid-logger in a 3-day cutting-edge mythic guild who is lucky with raid drops, and compare them against some non-raider farming higher level M+ keys (especially someone who lacks in mechanical skills, and compensates for that with dedication). That would flip your example upside down, having the M+ player invest 10x the effort than the raid-logger does. How do I tell which of the two opposite arguments (yours, or the flipped version of yours) holds more value? Neither of them brings much to the table.

Also, 5 numbered digit for months of wipes sounds really low, are you sure it's not 6-7 digits? I was buying roughly 2 WoW tokens per month in the same tier for consumables and repairs to be used in high-end M+ progression, so around 400'000 gold per month.

[Mrbleedinggums]

Raiding is the most efficient of the three methods to get better gear. You try gearing up in Classic without raiding and see how far you go. We've come a long way from that and now we do have multiple paths to gear up. M+ or PVP may not immediately give the best gear or give you BIS the quickest, but the fact that you can still achieve it without having to step foot in a raid is leaps beyond what we originally had for gear progression.

[Kaver]

Why people dont check actual math and speak like "will most likely always be useful" ? Do the math first. And remember about loot pool from M+ vs loot pool from raids.

If you are of low power then 3 options of 226 gear will most likely be useful even if the loot pool is very large. I haven't done the math but let's just be realistic. And if you are of high power already where you only need a specific piece, then it's not really a disaster if are unlucky. You will always get the currency if you don't need any of the pieces. Again, I think everything will be fine and I'm very positive about the changes. It seems like you are being a bit too dramatic.

[Kehego]

Raiding is the most efficient of the three methods to get better gear. You try gearing up in Classic without raiding and see how far you go. We've come a long way from that and now we do have multiple paths to gear up. M+ or PVP may not immediately give the best gear or give you BIS the quickest, but the fact that you can still achieve it without having to step foot in a raid is leaps beyond what we originally had for gear progression.

Raiding stopped being the most efficient when legion introduced M+

[Jastall]

In BfA M+ was more rewarding early in the tier, while raids where more rewarding later on (In 8.3's case, FAR more rewarding I'll add). Raids in Shadowlands will already have higher ilvl than any content with the endbosses dropping better stuff, which includes tokens for all weapon and offhand slots. So even without any other changes raiders were already at an advantage in the longer term.

For this reason I think the double whammy of less end of run loot and lower ilvl is a bit too much. IMO lower ilvl would have been enough, it stops loot trading in Heroic weeks 1/2 which was the main reason raiders felt the need to spam the hell out of M+ in the first week of a tier. Getting 1 (or 2? there's conflicting info) items for a timed 30-40 minute run for a party of 5 is starting to feel a bit much, especially since raiding now also nets you a Mythic item if you kill even one Mythic boss which will be doable by many otherwise Heroic only raiders. The pendulum seems to swing too far in the other direction.

[Kehego]

In BfA M+ was more rewarding early in the tier, while raids where more rewarding later on (In 8.3's case, FAR more rewarding I'll add). Raids in Shadowlands will already have higher ilvl than any content with the endbosses dropping better stuff, which includes tokens for all weapon and offhand slots. So even without any other changes raiders were already at an advantage in the longer term.

For this reason I think the double whammy of less end of run loot and lower ilvl is a bit too much. IMO lower ilvl would have been enough, it stops loot trading in Heroic weeks 1/2 which was the main reason raiders felt the need to spam the hell out of M+ in the first week of a tier. Getting 1 (or 2? there's conflicting info) items for a timed 30-40 minute run for a party of 5 is starting to feel a bit much, especially since raiding now also nets you a Mythic item if you kill even one Mythic boss which will be doable by many otherwise Heroic only raiders. The pendulum seems to swing too far in the other direction.

raiding and M+ in BFA were dead even until diver's folly/unguent caress became a thing.

if your class doesn't use those, raiding and M+ are still pretty much dead even.

in any progression oriented guild, you generally had full heroic+ (M+) gear the second they updated mythic dungeons for the season, then you went through heroic passing choice items to people who would be able to best utilize them. It's really not hard to get 4-5 M+ groups out of a standard 25+ 20man raid roster

[ID811717]

Raiding is the most efficient of the three methods to get better gear. You try gearing up in Classic without raiding and see how far you go. We've come a long way from that and now we do have multiple paths to gear up. M+ or PVP may not immediately give the best gear or give you BIS the quickest, but the fact that you can still achieve it without having to step foot in a raid is leaps beyond what we originally had for gear progression.

It's a weak argument. Things being bad in the past (as you seem to imply) does not mean we should not strive to make our future as good as possible.

[Mic_128]

I'll tell you what we need. Pet Battle Raids.

I'd resub for that.

[Echo of Soul]

But that doesn't need to be the case. You can have different content types being difficult in different ways offer equivalent rewards. I'm not saying that *as is*, the rewards should be the same. Just that Raiding need not be the only path to the top end gear.

Agreed. I could easily see a +30 awarding mythic quality gear.

[Tyris Flare]

Completely false. If you take a fresh level 120 and make them do only mythic + for the same amount of hours as someone who is fresh 120 and put them into mythic raiding, the guy doing only mythic+ will reach the highest item level faster than the mythic raider 10 out 10 times.

If your only reason to play the game is to get character power. Raiding is not worth it because of mythic+

This is less true with carapace and nzoth dropping 485s you literally cannot get from m+, even the box. But generally speaking, yes.

Other than weapons, trinkets, and azerite for some specs (which won't exist soon) Nyalotha loot has been mostly pointless.

[Amariw]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

Agreed. It's fine that raiding gives loot faster then m+, but its not fine you cant eventually get the same ilvl from m+. M+ is popular and many like to push keys without raiding. It was a great formula. Nerf drop rates, keep ilvl.

[Nevcairiel]

As a mythic raider: The new system sucks like hell. I will log in twice a week for raiding progression and one quick 14 and thats it. Fuck this new system, there is literally nothing wortwhile to do once you set a foot in mythic.

And that would be different with 3 more ilvl how exactly? Mythic gear has always been far superior over the end of dungeon cache.

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Agreed. It's fine that raiding gives loot faster then m+, but its not fine you cant eventually get the same ilvl from m+. M+ is popular and many like to push keys without raiding. It was a great formula. Nerf drop rates, keep ilvl.

You can literally live in M+ and deck out on the end of dungeon rewards in a week. Show me a raid where this works.

The only thing limited in M+ is the weekly cache, and that one did not have its ilvl change - its still mythic raid level. Therefor, you can reach the same ilvl.

[Nemah]

I'll tell you what we need. Pet Battle Raids.

I bet it's in the works.

[Krimzin]

What pisses people off about Mythic Raids is that most of them don't wanna put forth the effort to do them, yet wanna have the highest ilvl possible. They want easier content to drop equal ilvl so they can epeen without putting in the work. Easier content means less work.

Mythic Raiding isn't for the faint of heart. Wiping for hours and/or spending weeks on one boss. Its not for everyone. Mythic Raids should always give highest level loot because it requires the highest level of commitment. Im not saying Mythic+ isn't difficult at higher levels but it requires almost no time. 30 min is nothing. Even if you fail the timer miserably, you still get loot at the end and out of your weekly chest. If you fail in Mythic Raid, you get NOTHING.

Mythic Raiding > Mythic Dungeons and always will be. Thus it is being rewarded as it should be.

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What is the point of discussing or giving a fuck about what other people think? Just play the part of the game you like and be content.

Because they cant have the higher ilvl without doing it and thats why they are pissed.

[ID811717]

Agreed. It's fine that raiding gives loot faster then m+, but its not fine you cant eventually get the same ilvl from m+. M+ is popular and many like to push keys without raiding. It was a great formula. Nerf drop rates, keep ilvl.

I think the goal of non-raiders should be exactly the opposite.

It's completely fine to have lower overall ilvl than that of mythic raiders (based on the 2 last bosses dropping higher ilvl loot). If you ever got to the level of play where it is not fine... adding mythic raiding to your plate of existing in-game chores would be no big deal.

In contrast, the slower speed of loot acquisition hinders the M+-only players much more. If you wanted one piece of advice on how to start doing "high" keys (whatever "high" is for your playtime, or for your mechanical skill capability), then one of the best recipes is to never fall behind your peers. If you are to be given a chance to prove that you are capable of succeeding in much harder M+ content than you have prior experience for, that will likely happen at the start of a new season. But you will get fewer chances like that if you basically fall behind from the start (based purely on the fact that you decided to not raid that tier), and if it would take you a long time to catch up with raider gear.

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You can literally live in M+ and deck out on the end of dungeon rewards in a week. Show me a raid where this works.

He obviously meant the way Shadowlands will make it impossible (I agree with you - impossible for the first time in 3-4 years). Impossible in the sense that fully decked-out ilvl 210 character will get quickly outgeared by people who farm HC raid and progress in mythic raid.

[Kehego]

I think the goal of non-raiders should be exactly the opposite.

It's completely fine to have lower overall ilvl than that of mythic raiders (based on the 2 last bosses dropping higher ilvl loot). If you ever got to the level of play where it is not fine... adding mythic raiding to your plate of existing in-game chores would be no big deal.

In contrast, the slower speed of loot acquisition hinders the M+-only players much more. If you wanted one piece of advice on how to start doing "high" keys (whatever "high" is for your playtime, or for your mechanical skill capability), then one of the best recipes is to never fall behind your peers. If you are to be given a chance to prove that you are capable of succeeding in much harder M+ content than you have prior experience for, that will likely happen at the start of a new season. But you will get fewer chances like that if you basically fall behind from the start (based purely on the fact that you decided to not raid that tier), and if it would take you a long time to catch up with raider gear.

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He obviously meant the way Shadowlands will make it impossible (I agree with you - impossible for the first time in 3-4 years). Impossible in the sense that fully decked-out ilvl 210 character will get quickly outgeared by people who farm HC raid and progress in mythic raid.

No it wouldn't, because you can just run keys all day

with M+ you can (itemization aside) gear in a single day, no matter how abysmal the drop rates are (2 items instead of 3).

[Kallisto]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

Because wow community doesn't understand alternative parts. It thinks anything that potentially gives a power increase no matter how tiny is blizzard putting a loaded gun to their head and forces them to play it without stopping.

Then if something does come up to stop them they'll cry about it being time gated. They simply put can't help themselves.