I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Krimzin]

No it wouldn't, because you can just run keys all day

Exactly. Another reason why Mythic Dungeon ilvl should be lower than Raiding. Time Locked vs Non Timed Locked.
Mythic+ is a gearing treadmill. Not end game progression.

[Lavey]

I don't really get why people prefer to NOT play the game. If its something you don't like to do, why do it?

I enjoy playing the game, I just don't want it to be an overtly time consuming, and/or physically/mentally unhealthy endeavor. I love to workout, but you're not seeing me at 38, spending the same 60hrs a week in the gym like I did when I was 21, because 1: it's unhealthy for my age and fitness goals and 2: way to time consuming.

You see my point?

[Kehego]

Exactly. Another reason why Mythic Dungeon ilvl should be lower than Raiding. Time Locked vs Non Timed Locked.
Mythic+ is a gearing treadmill. Not end game progression.

I honestly think M+ should be capped at whatever heroic itemlevel is. M+ chest is +10 and mythic is +15 over heroic (using bfa itemlevel)
That's fair to all involved. You *can* get better gear from the raid but it doesnt invalidate the raid as a whole.

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I enjoy playing the game, I just don't want it to be an overtly time consuming, and/or physically/mentally unhealthy endeavor. I love to workout, but you're not seeing me at 38, spending the same 60hrs a week in the gym like I did when I was 21, because 1: it's unhealthy for my age and fitness goals and 2: way to time consuming.

You see my point?

that's a you problem not a game systems problem

[ID811717]

It's fine that raiding gives loot faster then m+

You can literally live in M+ and deck out on the end of dungeon rewards in a week. Show me a raid where this works.

He obviously meant the way Shadowlands will make it impossible (I agree with you - impossible for the first time in 3-4 years). Impossible in the sense that fully decked-out ilvl 210 character will get quickly outgeared by people who farm HC raid and progress in mythic raid.

No it wouldn't, because you can just run keys all day

with M+ you can (itemization aside) gear in a single day, no matter how abysmal the drop rates are (2 items instead of 3).

Do you mean that raiders who get chances to loot ilvl 213, ilvl 220 and ilvl 226 gear from multiple sources every week would not quickly outgear someone who decked out in full ilvl 210 gear on day 1 and then gets just a single ilvl 226 piece per week?

[Kehego]

Do you mean that raiders who get chances to loot ilvl 213, ilvl 220 and ilvl 226 gear from multiple sources every week would not quickly outgear someone who decked out in full ilvl 210 gear on day 1 and then gets just a single ilvl 226 piece per week?

well considering that you won't get fully geared from a single raid, yes

you can have every slot at 210 or whatever in a single day
even if you have the gods luck, that won't happen in a raid

[Lavey]

I honestly think M+ should be capped at whatever heroic itemlevel is. M+ chest is +10 and mythic is +15 over heroic (using bfa itemlevel)
That's fair to all involved. You *can* get better gear from the raid but it doesnt invalidate the raid as a whole.

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that's a you problem not a game systems problem

I agree, but every opinion can be distilled to that same mantra. Game Design is a fickle mistress.

[Jastall]

raiding and M+ in BFA were dead even until diver's folly/unguent caress became a thing.

if your class doesn't use those, raiding and M+ are still pretty much dead even.

in any progression oriented guild, you generally had full heroic+ (M+) gear the second they updated mythic dungeons for the season, then you went through heroic passing choice items to people who would be able to best utilize them. It's really not hard to get 4-5 M+ groups out of a standard 25+ 20man raid roster

A good raiding guild now can get gear 10 ilvls higher than any other content in the game, Azerite included, plus some very, very powerful weapons (Bow from Skitra for instance) and trinkets (IE why so many people run, say, Ra-den) and raids on farm are the quickest source of the best gear in the game. Yeah, M+ spam was king for the first weeks or two of a tier, but now? Unless you're boosting a shitty alt, raiding is the best source of gear right now, and that's without the battery of changes Shadowlands brings to make raiding even more valuable, in part by directly nerfing M+.

I'm a raider, this doesn't affect me too much, but I feel like Blizzard went overboard here, perhaps in response to all the people whining that raids weren't the only worthwhile PvE content anymore or whatever. I'd rather the modes be dead even, maybe raiding being a bit more valuable, than over-nerfing the best new feature this game has ever seen. We're not at Wrath to WoD levels of raid or die of course, not even close, but I'd really much rather we not move towards that direction any more.

[Selastan]

Agreed with first part but second about leggos is a no-go. Legion legedaries were fucking retarded design.
I don't want static boring loot tho.
But good loot shouldn't be behind raids and raids only.

Oh, I didn't mean literal legendaries, just that we shouldn't assume that any gear we get from exploring the world in our own way isn't going to be useful.

One way to approach this would be to have some sort of upgrade system, where every piece of gear has an xp bar similar to the player, and when you adventure around doing whatever content you want, your gear gains xp. When your gear's xp maxes out, you can take that item to a player with the appropriate profession, along with a bunch of materials, and upgrade it, gaining stats and resetting the xp bar. Then also tailor item leveled loot to the players current item level. That way, when a player finishes a quest that rewards a sword, that sword would be a blue weapon for someone fresh out of questing, but an experienced raider or someone who has grinded their gear xp up every day might find raid quality weapon.

[Orwell7]

I don't get why is anyone upset.

For starters, go and count on how many dungeon loot you have right now. How many raid drops?
I bet most players have their gear from their WEEKLY CHEST.
It will be the same in shadowlands, BUT the weekly chest now contains more to choose from! How is that not an improvement?

Are we arguing AGAIN for/against the 1% who level up their chars and their friends instantly boost them to max M+ end-of-dungeon ilvl? Where they are no longer incentivized to do any raiding but Mythic?


Another note, we should introduce an M+ system with the standard weekly lockout.
UI option to choose from "timed" M+ which is the same as now, and "regular" M+.

"Regular" M+ should have lower ilvl loot compared to the timed ones, BUT all bosses drop loot like they do in M0.
The scaling of "R" M+ should be exactly the same as "T" M+, but doing a 20 "R" M+ should reward loot like a 16 timed M+.

You can choose at the start to use your key as a regular or timed, and everyone in the party must agree. If someone has a lock on that particular dungeon, they can still go, but won't get loot, just like heroic raid lockouts.

[Delever]

OK mate, look: you seem to be the one who hasn't thought things through. What's more, I even agree with you!

My comment was ironic, and more precisely, making fun of people who shout that the expac will be "raid or die", which we both know is totally not the case.

My apologies in this case. Sarcasm is not always easy to detect over the internet.

[ID811717]

well considering that you won't get fully geared from a single raid, yes

you can have every slot at 210 or whatever in a single day
even if you have the gods luck, that won't happen in a raid

Of course, I agree, you do not get fully geared from a single raid lockout (even across Normal + HC + Mythic difficulties).
The big picture is more complicated than that, but I just don't want to get into the these hypothetical right now...

[Kralljin]

Kinda dishonest there.......you can get any item IN THE INSTANCE that fits your loot spec. You can only spam it if you have the keys. With 1 peice of loot dropping at the end of the run there will people who won't do keys because "they never got nothing out of 5 runs".

It's not, because of the groupfinder, you can do a dungeon as often as you like without issue as long as the party leader invites you.

Which is a player imposed barrier, not a game based limitation (like lockouts).

Just make M+ loot locked behind weekly resets like the Vision loot.

People will be obliged to not join any M+ until they have run the dungeon where they need loot.

For example, no 2h spec would join any M+ until they've done their weekly Kings Rest run first to get a shot at Get'ikku.

Also causes massive issues for the more organized groups, because you then have to settle on a dungeon that you're doing first within the week, if someone needs a Trinket from Dungeon X, but someone else needs a weapon from Dungeon Y, you would either have to log onto alts (which in turn have to "use" their lockout) or someone needs to take the bullet and waste their Lockout on the highest Ilvl.

[Unholyground]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

Builds Torghast the coolest solo content to date "WE GOT NOTHING" lol

[Malix Farwin]

"why don't raiders see that": because they are idiots
"and apparently the dev team": because the game director is a raider. see above

As if raiders are the ones who are making the game decision. "Raiders" are well aware of that and there are games like FFXIV with raids and other content besides raids as well. We never cared about M+ like that outside of weekly chest so why assume that they are the ones pushing the change instead of Blizzard. Whats with Casuals and their though process sometimes i will never understand.

[dproject]

Yea, I personally think this system isn’t perfect either. I was expecting the ilvl difference between raid gears vs m+ gears should be higher. Ideally, 10%-20% at minimum.
I certainly hope Blizzard’s next changes will include this. *fingers crossed*

[Aeriedk]

The whole 'I mythic raid, I *deserve* the best gear!!*" is now completely worthless, imo. If it's so special, why is it being sold to anyone who wants to put out the gold. There is nothing special about mythic raid gear anymore. It should be given out via gameplay to all classes of players, since it's so un-special that it can be sold to anyone who wants it.

But they do deserve the best gear because they are the ones doing the most difficult content. This has nothing to do with it being special. Being able to sell mythic runs and make gold is their privilege as skilled mythic raiders. The people buying the gear can't then in turn sell runs themselves, nor can they join most mythic raids or M+ runs. When was the last time you were invited to a run based of ilvl? People now use experience because gear can be bought. If you have a high ilvl but no raider.io you aren't going to be doing any high level content until you prove that you have the skill to do so.

Some people need to buy tokens for gold, others farm, skilled raiders get gold from selling runs. They don't care if you buy the mythic gear. Chances are if you're buying mythic gear you don't have a chance of actually doing anything with it.

[Kehego]

A good raiding guild now can get gear 10 ilvls higher than any other content in the game, Azerite included, plus some very, very powerful weapons (Bow from Skitra for instance) and trinkets (IE why so many people run, say, Ra-den) and raids on farm are the quickest source of the best gear in the game. Yeah, M+ spam was king for the first weeks or two of a tier, but now? Unless you're boosting a shitty alt, raiding is the best source of gear right now, and that's without the battery of changes Shadowlands brings to make raiding even more valuable, in part by directly nerfing M+.

I'm a raider, this doesn't affect me too much, but I feel like Blizzard went overboard here, perhaps in response to all the people whining that raids weren't the only worthwhile PvE content anymore or whatever. I'd rather the modes be dead even, maybe raiding being a bit more valuable, than over-nerfing the best new feature this game has ever seen. We're not at Wrath to WoD levels of raid or die of course, not even close, but I'd really much rather we not move towards that direction any more.

yes but this is the thing, the first 2 months are the only timeframe that really matter.
How do you get geared? (not optimized)
M+ spam

You don't take a new character in blues and greens in a raid, you can't farm raid gear.

[Jastall]

yes but this is the thing, the first 2 months are the only timeframe that really matter.
How do you get geared? (not optimized)
M+ spam

You don't take a new character in blues and greens in a raid, you can't farm raid gear.

So nerf M+ for everyone because a few people spammed it? I don't think that a good solution. It wasn't even spammed for the gear itself, but to enable easy trading of gear in Heroic. Lower ilvl fixes most of that from the onset. Fewer items is just overkill, especially when the new weekly chest makes raiding more worthwhile than ever.

[Kehego]

So nerf M+ for everyone because a few people spammed it? I don't think that a good solution. It wasn't even spammed for the gear itself, but to enable easy trading of gear in Heroic. Lower ilvl fixes most of that from the onset. Fewer items is just overkill, especially when the new weekly chest makes raiding more worthwhile than ever.

No, it was 100% spammed for gear, because the gear was better than heroic gear
and yes, 15-20 minutes for 2 (on a deplete) or more pieces of greater than heroic gear is dumb

M+ in bfa was only slightly less dumb than badge farm gearing

[RoKPaNda]

It's Blizzard, they almost NEVER learn the right lessons and realistically whenever they say they've learned something they're one disastrous quarter away from a complete and totally misguided 180.

Raiding should always be the best source of the best gear. Otherwise there's no reason to raid and can spam M+ instead.

Nope. M+ was designed as an alternative to raiding so its gear should be equivalent. You don't raid solely for gear, you raid because you like raiding. If I didn't thoroughly enjoy it, I wouldn't do it just for imaginary pixels.

No, it was 100% spammed for gear, because the gear was better than heroic gear
and yes, 15-20 minutes for 2 (on a deplete) or more pieces of greater than heroic gear is dumb

It's a lot more effort than Heroic raiding. You can do heroic raiding with your eyes closed.