How to give Hunters a forth spec

[Dragonhawk]

The common argument against a forth spec for hunters is that nobody has four dps specs. You could say the counter argument is that Blizzard never turned a ranged spec into a melee one before either. However it is unlikely that they would give the class four dps specs. The way to do four specs then is to make a healer or tank spec. There are also a large number of people who want the old SV back because they like the whole mobile dot feel of the spec. I also dont want to take away from those who want to play a melee dps spec either, but I think this could satisfy all these parameters. I am only going to go into general concepts as I have not played WoW since they turned SV into a melee spec, so I wont pretend I am up to date with current mechanics or abilities.

Marksmanship: Based around hard hitting but more stationary gameplay. Would have the abilities with cast times, like other spellcasters, but shots would hit very hard. For utility it would have the most abilities to keep an opponent snared to allow him to move away. Can have a pet but it will have a lower damage modifier than other dps specs.

Survival: Becomes a tank spec, which is hte best fit for the spec name. Pet goes from doing dps and providing raid utility to providing the SV with buffs. So if you were SV then different pets would do things like place a hot on you, buff your defense or hp, sacrifice itself to rez you,... Its taunt would also transfer the aggro to you. Abilities like Harpoon seem well suited for a tank so making the spec a tank spec seems a natural evelution.

Beastmaster: This is the trickiest to implement, as the spec would allow you to choose between playing melee or ranged, but your pet is still going to be a greater proportion of your dps than with other specs. Pets would act like they currently do but would have a higher base modifier for their dps. The spec would get most of its abilities through spells as you level up, but most would have lower dps by default. A bunch of SVs melee dps abilities would be transferred over to BM as Sv would be getting some new tanking abilities. Abilities that primarily affect your pet like Beastal Wrath would stay the same no matter how you chose to play.

Whether you play melee or ranged would depend on what talents you choose. So rather than talents that give you new abilities you would have talents that buff spells. So if you wanted to play melee then you would choose the talent that buffed melee abilities and if you wanted to play ranged then you would choose the one buffed ranged abilities. Blizzard could add some new abilities that are designed to interact with existing spells, so for example They could put in a shot that is buffed if fired after Cobra Shot, or an ability that is buffed if used after Mongoose Bite.

Woodsman: The new spec, which would act like the old SV but taken to its fullest extent. The spec will revolve around staying mobile keeping dots on the target. Pet would have a normal damage modifier and act the way pets do now. It would also have the most cc options with things like Freezing Trap. So most dot abilities like Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, and Barbed Shot would be part of its lineup. I would like to see Explosive Shot be a signature shot for the spec and have its mechanics interact with some of the other dots.

That is my idea for doing a four spec Hunter and giving it something other than another dps spec.

[The Butt Witch]

Ranged tank
Working similar to BM by remote controlling your pet.

*All your aggro is transferred to the pet. The Hunter himself will never have aggro, as it's all directed to the pet. Think of it as having permanent Misdirection onto the pet.
*Your pet is actually the tank, but the Hunter himself also pretty durable. Your own abilities also command the pet to do things, such as Taunt.
*You build resources from range, and your pet spends them on command in order to keep aggro.

Infiltrator
A stealthy assassin who mixes ranged attacks with melee combat. (Theme: Green Arrow).

*Baseline Stealth
*Melee attacks using the bow's shaft or rifle's stock to to damage and/or cc enemies.

[Kaver]

You mention it yourself, but there would simply be an outrage if one class got another spec and other classes didn’t. The “range spec turned into melee” argument probably wouldn’t work with most people. Blizzard will do anything to avoid a shitshow like that so another spec for hunters is extremely unlikely unless they add another spec to all classes. Especially the DHs would got completely crazy if Hunters got a fourth spec before they got a third.

[Dragonhawk]

That was why I made SV be a tanking spec. We have Druids who have four specs, and yes that is because each spec does its own role (tank, healer, melee, ranged dps). Like I said though Blizzard has never in its history done such a radical change to a class/spec before, so we are in new territory now. I do agree it is unlikely as it took Blizzard 7 years to eliminate the whole cant shoot at melee range mechanic, so I would expect them to be dragged kicking and screaming to do a fix like this. I did think it was worth a post though just to put the idea out there if nothing else.

[Jonnusthegreat]

Ranged tank
Working similar to BM by remote controlling your pet.

*All your aggro is transferred to the pet. The Hunter himself will never have aggro, as it's all directed to the pet. Think of it as having permanent Misdirection onto the pet.
*Your pet is actually the tank, but the Hunter himself also pretty durable. Your own abilities also command the pet to do things, such as Taunt.
*You build resources from range, and your pet spends them on command in order to keep aggro.

Infiltrator
A stealthy assassin who mixes ranged attacks with melee combat. (Theme: Green Arrow).

*Baseline Stealth
*Melee attacks using the bow's shaft or rifle's stock to to damage and/or cc enemies.

Infiltrator sounds like how survival used to be. That was great. No need for stealth.

[gd8]

I just want old survival

The fact melee survival still exists kinda proves a large portion of the team can't be playing wow

It's GARBAGE

get over it already, you people are a vocal minority. nobody else cares

go play on a private server if you want to play a dated irrelevant form of an old spec so bad

[Nythiz]

get over it already, you people are a vocal minority. nobody else cares

go play on a private server if you want to play a dated irrelevant form of an old spec so bad

There's probably more people complaining about SV being changed from ranged to melee, than there are people playing SV in the first place .

I will disagree with Bennett, because I don't think that melee SV is garbage. It's actually quite fun to play and has potential if blizzard would give 2 shits and would actually look at the spec, like they looked at some others going into SL (Spriest / Sub rogue / shamans / etc).

However seeing as old SV was great fun and also had a lot of potential, I will always prefer ranged SV over melee SV as well.

Back in WoD I also advocated for SV changes, but rather than making it melee; I hoped they would make SV even more elemental damage oriented.
I really liked the idea of leaning even more into the DoT components and Exotic Munitions.

---

As for the main topic:

Main reason for not getting a 4th spec is simply that blizzard doesn't want to set a precedent. If we get a 4th spec there are 9 other classes that also want to have a 4th spec.
Blizzard can barely take care, maintain and balance the 36 specs as it is; let alone if they add more specs.

[tru]

get over it already, you people are a vocal minority. nobody else cares

go play on a private server if you want to play a dated irrelevant form of an old spec so bad

Great argument.... Instead of seeing the representation of the low unpopular, more cries of bringing the old back vs praising the new you say play on a private server.....bravo

[OkamiShiro]

I just want old survival

The fact melee survival still exists kinda proves a large portion of the team can't be playing wow

It's GARBAGE

Old survival? Have to dissapoint you, the first vanilla survival tree was intended to be a melee choice.

[Dragonhawk]

Old survival? Have to dissapoint you, the first vanilla survival tree was intended to be a melee choice.

Actually it was more the pvp spec. It had both melee and ranged abilities and provided a number of buffs that were considered more valuable in pvp than for pve, such as crit bonuses. You had alot of abilities that magnified the classes cc abilities like extending trap durations. Unlike MM and to a lesser extent BM it was not really setup to be an independent spec, more like a support tree for the other two specs.

[aceperson]

how to guide to make an additional spec for any class:

step 1. click "create new spec" on menu
step 2. ???
step 3. profit

[OkamiShiro]

Actually it was more the pvp spec. It had both melee and ranged abilities and provided a number of buffs that were considered more valuable in pvp than for pve, such as crit bonuses. You had alot of abilities that magnified the classes cc abilities like extending trap durations. Unlike MM and to a lesser extent BM it was not really setup to be an independent spec, more like a support tree for the other two specs.

1. No it wasn't
2. Good thing we don't into account gimmick builds that were possible through how broken vanilla was as how specs should actually be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dzw...youtu.be&t=286

and

Before the 1.7.0 talent rework, Survival Hunter was the dedicated melee tree.

Here’s a list of all DPS talents melee hunters lost and gained in the 1.7.0 talent tree revamp.

Lost:

5% Melee Hit (5/5)
-1CD on Raptor Strike (5/5)
20% damage on Mongoose Bite (5/5)
5% Melee Crit (5/5)
5% Melee Damage (5/5)
Lacerate (1/1)

Gained:

3% Beasts, Giants, Dragonkin damage & critical damage (3/3)
3% Humanoid damage & critical damage (3/3)
20% Mongoose Bite & Raptor Strike crit chance (2/2)
3% Hit Chance (3/3)
5% Crit Chance (5/5)
15% Agility (5/5)

Overall:

Lost 5% damage on non-humanoid, beast, giant, dragonkin targets
Lost 2% damage on humanoid, beast, giants, and dragonkin targets
Lost 20% damage on Mongoose Bite
Lost -1CD on Raptor Strike
Gained 20% Crit on Mongoose Bite and Raptor Strike
Lost 2% hit
Lost Lacerate

e: Sv is still like the vanilla sv build. Melee with a lot of range actions. Not to mention retail sv is getting steady and arcane shot back. > switch between ranged weapon and melee weapon, depends on your situation.

[Kyphael]

I just want old survival

The fact melee survival still exists kinda proves a large portion of the team can't be playing wow

It's GARBAGE

I love Survival. It's more fun than Marksmanship, and second only to Beast Mastery. GTFO with wanting Survival to go back to ranged, you already have two ranged specs for that.

[OkamiShiro]

I love Survival. It's more fun than Marksmanship, and second only to Beast Mastery. GTFO with wanting Survival to go back to ranged, you already have two ranged specs for that.

Thank you man, that's on point.

Lemme give you a big cookie.

[gd8]

Look how many people played survival pre-legion vs now and tell me my opinion is the minority one

people don't play current survival much because it's not tuned well and doesn't offer any unique utility over other melee specs, not because it's a melee spec.

[Nythiz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dzw...youtu.be&t=286

and



e: Sv is still like the vanilla sv build. Melee with a lot of range actions. Not to mention retail sv is getting steady and arcane shot back. > switch between ranged weapon and melee weapon, depends on your situation.

It was changed for a reason though. Pre-1.7 SV was horrible and needed to be changed.
Using pre-1.7 SV as an argument for why SV should be melee, is basically an argument why SV should NOT be melee.

BFA melee SV is not a bad spec, I really enjoy playing it from time to time.
But it's not better than ranged SV was back in MoP and early WoD.

That said, all of these discussions are completely pointless.
Blizzard is not introducing a 4th spec before 10.0
Blizzard is not making SV ranged before 10.0

No point in repeating the same thing 20 times.
Blizzard hasn't even bothered to properly look at SV for SL, they increased some talent damages here and there; but any proper attention (e.g. MB baseline, WFI baseline, proper legendaries instead of nearly all of them being friggin azerite trait rehashes).
Let alone that blizzard would bother looking at hunter 4th spec or ranged SV.

[Dragonhawk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dzw...youtu.be&t=286

and



e: Sv is still like the vanilla sv build. Melee with a lot of range actions. Not to mention retail sv is getting steady and arcane shot back. > switch between ranged weapon and melee weapon, depends on your situation.

And in 1.13 you had these talents.
Wyrven Sting: ranged CC
Lightning reflexes: bonus agility for all damage
Killer Instinct: bonus crit for all attacks.

The rest of the tree focused on improving things like traps and wing clip and you could get Counterattack which was another escape ability.

The Hunter talent tree also suffered at launch from Hunters being the last class to get worked on and by Blizzards own admission back then said that resulted in a rushed talent tree and later the biggest revamp of a talent tree. So yes the spec was more of a pvp and support tree for the other two specs, since at that point hunters had a dead zone so cc was very important in order for them to get back at range.

The 1.7 tree was quickly done away with and the 1.13 tree lasted as it was for virtually all of vanilla so I would say Blizzards intention for the spec followed along the 1.13 lines vs the 1.7 lines.

- - - Updated - - -

It was changed for a reason though. Pre-1.7 SV was horrible and needed to be changed.
Using pre-1.7 SV as an argument for why SV should be melee, is basically an argument why SV should NOT be melee.

BFA melee SV is not a bad spec, I really enjoy playing it from time to time.
But it's not better than ranged SV was back in MoP and early WoD.

That said, all of these discussions are completely pointless.
Blizzard is not introducing a 4th spec before 10.0
Blizzard is not making SV ranged before 10.0

No point in repeating the same thing 20 times.
Blizzard hasn't even bothered to properly look at SV for SL, they increased some talent damages here and there; but any proper attention (e.g. MB baseline, WFI baseline, proper legendaries instead of nearly all of them being friggin azerite trait rehashes).
Let alone that blizzard would bother looking at hunter 4th spec or ranged SV.

If people had followed your advice we would still probably have a dead zone. It took the community hounding Blizzard for years to fix the whole dead zone and no shooting in melee mechanics. Even if it isnt done by 10.0, which I doubt anyone expects to happen, people hounding Blizzard is how it could get changed eventually. Overcoming developers ego is generally a lengthy process and requires patience.

[Kyphael]

Fun is subjective. Personally I don't find spamming the same button over and over again that fun but hey ho

How about you accept most people want the spec to return as it was?

- - - Updated - - -



That's the thing, survival does fine damage - obviously not BM's level but it's by no means undertuned - people don't play it even when it's good - pretty sure method ran a survival hunter in NH mythic - doesn't mean loads of people started playing it

Indeed it is. I don't know what version of Survival Hunter you've played, but I have more than one button to press. I don't know what the numbers are, and I don't frankly care much, I like the spec and play it, and I don't want it to "return as it was" because as I've said, you already have two ranged specs. If you want ranged Survival, Classic is there for you.

[Nythiz]

If people had followed your advice we would still probably have a dead zone. It took the community hounding Blizzard for years to fix the whole dead zone and no shooting in melee mechanics. Even if it isnt done by 10.0, which I doubt anyone expects to happen, people hounding Blizzard is how it could get changed eventually. Overcoming developers ego is generally a lengthy process and requires patience.

I'm not saying: don't provide input
I'm saying, it's too late now anyway; there is no way they would make such a sweeping change a few weeks before the pre-patch; unless it's already virtually done and a surprise (in which case any further input would still be pointless)

The ship has sailed, let's hope they at least bring melee SV a bit more up to par during SL and see what 10.0 brings.

[gd8]

That's the thing, survival does fine damage - obviously not BM's level but it's by no means undertuned - people don't play it even when it's good - pretty sure method ran a survival hunter in NH mythic - doesn't mean loads of people started playing it

it could be in the top 5 dps and people still probably wont play it without unique utility at this point in the game. utility = group invites