[SPOILER]Return of Garrosh?

[Super Dickmann]

The civilians fled because Vol'jin and Baine warned Jaina and they were sent away. Garrosh couldn't care less one way or the other, and even had his Kor'kron go out of their way to intercept the ships right afterwards, capture the civilians and use them for target practice during SoO. Thus we can safely assume he absolutely would have bombed them without a care in the world.

I agree that he didn't give a shit either way, but he purposefully based his plan on Baine tipping them off. Him targeting the civilians afterwards is conjecture. It's more likely they were collateral from his naval victory in Tanaris.

[bulletnipz]

If there isn't a "I did nothing wrong" moment they shouldn't bother tbh.

[gd8]

given the fact that revendreth is in dire haves-and-have-nots turmoil, I think we're most likely going to see an uprising with Garrosh leading it and thus finding redemption that way. that or he'll just rebel for his own ego/self interests

[Susanoo]

Yeah but that's not my point. My point is that him sending some of his best soldiers to kidnap, torture and execute those same civilians shows he didn't give a shit about their safety and well-being to begin with regardless of what his intentions were RE Theramore. Thus saying "well he didn't kill civilians at Theramore!" isn't a point in his favor if kills these same people elsewhere instead. Garrosh has a lot to atone for and more than earned his place in Revendreth even if the powers that be in the Shadowlands would count the bombing as 100% justified anyway, and that's a big if.

The same can be said for Jaina who kidnapped Sunreaver civilians. It was a war, civilians are bargaining tokens. Alliance and Horde attacked a regime on the verge of collapse and the kidnapped Civilians started dying. As far as I know the Alliance did not even attempt a rescue or bargain with Garrosh to get them back. Civilians started dying when both the Alliance and Horde attacked Orgrimmar. If Garrosh had simply executed them on the spot when they were captured then I would be of your opinion.

I’m not denying Garrosh doesn’t deserve Revendreth 100% for his shift into a dictator but bombing Theramore was not this horrible atrocity.

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

We should have dismantled the horde when we could back at the end of SoO. Garrosh and Sylvanas is proof that the Horde always falls to their bloodlust and expansionism.

[Wildberry]

It's been six years. Just leave him alone already!

Orgrimmar Grunt: You must be saddened to see Sylvanas leave.
Forsaken Refugee: Why? Because I'm Forsaken? Did you shed tears for Garrosh because you're an orc?
Orgrimmar Grunt: No... I shed tears because he brought shame to us all.

We finally got a throwaway in-game line to confirm that blue post ages ago! Very cool to see our first in-game confirmation of this!!!

Varok Saurfang, Son of Koruk, Supreme Commander of the Might of Kalimdor, High Overload of the Horde. He led the charge against the Lich King. He defended our world from the Legion.

--Thrall (Saurfang's Funeral)

Apparently, Garrosh had his named purged from the records for his crimes against the Unifaction. Somehow, Thrall conveniently forgot the fact that he put the Horde's forces in Northrend under the command of Garrosh, not Saurfang. In Saurfang's own words:

For you see, our forces in Northrend work under the auspices of young Hellscream.

--"Letter From Saurfang"

Garrosh was thrown out of the Horde six years ago, he's been dead for nearly five. Despite this Blizzard is still trying to strip their last good character of any positive aspect he had.

You would think that Sylvanas being enough of a bitch to launch an expansion would give him vindication, but no! They're even going back and editing out his condemnation of Sylvanas in Silverpine. He can't be allowed to be correct about anything.

And now? He's a one-man anima battery for the excesses of Revendreth's upper-classes. Let's all hope he gets obliterated at the end of the of the M Sire Denathrius fight, because keeping him around any longer won't do the character any favors.

[Super Dickmann]

And now? He's a one-man anima battery for the excesses of Revendreth's upper-classes. Let's all hope he gets obliterated at the end of the of the M Sire Denathrius fight, because keeping him around any longer won't do the character any favors.

This is the best treatment he could've gotten if he had to be reintroduced. Him being sent to Hell would've been cancerous preaching, him being redeemed would turn him into nu-Saurfang.

[Arrashi]

This is the best treatment he could've gotten if he had to be reintroduced. Him being sent to Hell would've been cancerous preaching, him being redeemed would turn him into nu-Saurfang.

Or he could get out by possesing Go'el turning him into Liquid Thrall.

[Wildberry]

Or he could get out by possesing Go'el turning him into Liquid Thrall.

At this point, why not?

[Arrashi]

At this point, why not?

And writing isn't about why it's about why not.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

hahahaha garrosh is called ol'reliable. xDDDD

[Super Dickmann]

Or he could get out by possesing Go'el turning him into Liquid Thrall.

Don't break Blizz's NDA.

[Dagoth Ur]

I'm going to think of it as Garrosh still refusing to submit to this whole new direction the Horde's story is being taken.

Keep fighting the good fight Warchief, you're a symbol now!

[Newname1234567890]

Even in hell Garrosh selflessly providers for the people!

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

We need Fandral Staghelm in Revendreth, Garithos, we need ALL our ol'reliables show-cased!

[Jshadowhunter]

I'm going to think of it as Garrosh still refusing to submit to this whole new direction the Horde's story is being taken.

Keep fighting the good fight Warchief, you're a symbol now!

Even in hell Garrosh selflessly providers for the people!

All of them. #FreeGarrosh

[Aresk]

If there isn't a "I did nothing wrong" moment they shouldn't bother tbh.

Isn't that basically what that video was? Revendreth is set up to help people repent for their perceived crimes in life. The fact that Garrosh is still in Revendreth when the anima drought began means that he hasn't repented for whatever actions he was sentenced for, indicating he still feels no remorse for those acts. Hence, at least in his own mind, he hasn't done anything wrong.

[LemonDemonGirl]

All of them. #FreeGarrosh

Let's free the other four that were getting tortured too! #freethemall

[shimerra]

Some one willing to crush there enemy’s for there people call out bullshit like raising new undead and make devastating plans to beat the enemy’s of the horde? Ya I think it’s safe to say he’s an incredibly strong symbol of what the horde should be.

way stronger then ner’zhul who was played a fool then blew up his own planet because he was a coward.

Or Grom who got bested by a bunch of elfs and had to relay on demon blood.

Or doomhammer who was to weak to actually free his people and lead them to something better and had to relay on thrall.

Garrosh was every thing the horde should have been instead of the bullshit idiotic leaders who opposed him for no good reason turned it into.

You really, really, really don't want to get in on a flaw by flaw comparison.

Garrosh literally almost brought the entire horde to ruin because of his thirst for blood, power, and idiotic tactics. And the worst part is he did it for essentially no reason other than someone had to start a war because fuck it. There wasn't a single intelligent bone in his body as far as being a leader during the time of war he was singularly a plot device to drive conflict for conflict's sake. He almost had an arc in wotlk where he was growing a bit and almost learned that charging headfirst into a fight that only happened because you were pissed someone got you the wrong color sweater was maybe not the best first course of action. Then MOP slammed him right back to his idiot war fixes everything if you're angry enough attitude. A boring, dumb, pointless character used to try and drum up faction conflict in a field of much better alternatives with actual character motivation other than orcs are angry because orcs.


Regarding his actions via undead and plan to kill the enemies of the horde: Oh good he had one weird and 100% completely inconsistent with his character(for all his claims about honor he had almost none himself in MOP) moment where he rightfully called out slyvanas and her necromancy practices. Was it actual principal or just his massive racism/xenophobia as he continued to attack enemies and allies alike forming the orcish version of a secret police/gestpao type organization? It was also massively hypocritical as he immediately proceeded to fuck with Old God powers getting himself corrupted and experimenting with corrupting others becoming a vastly worse monster than Sylvannas was at the time and literally face fucking a neutral continent/races because his instincts as usual as shoot first think things even the tiniest bit through never. Provoking unnecessary fights for no gain at best and at worst hurting yourself because you are the type of person to burn down a coffee shop that spelled your name wrong on your cup isn't a good character or writing.

Garrosh was a empty headed idiot who's brain was filled with nothing but the irrational rage of a toddler who got his toy taken away and is still bitter about it 30 years later. His entire "strength" relied upon being carried by his father's notoriety and if you asked him to screw something together his solution was to scream and smash the screw with his axe and his absolutely idiotic and hypocritical use of old god power again the entire time fucking himself and his allies for zero reason other than it's a video game that needs someone to fight/be the enemy. And again even if you're into the whole angry for the sake of angry character he was still a feckless idiot strategy wise. He was a grunt who deserved to be at the bottom of the ranks if he was even allowed in the military at all not the leader.

He was nothing but rage. He didn't want to just crush his enemies, but he allies, and people straight up giving him exactly what he wanted with no consistency in actions or motivations. He was badly written one note character who was angry for the sake of being angry and everyone was expected to rally around him. It's like if your brother punched your Grandma in her face because she said she didn't like his shorts and then expected you to side with him for some reason and now has sworn he will not rest until he burns your house down.

Let's take bioshock as an example. The first one Andrew Ryan was a wicked smart man who had fucked up ideas about sweatshop ownership but you understood his decision making. He was cunning and vicious and while you were definitely meant to disagree with him there was no denying there was a logic to some of his views even if when put into practice it lead to a dystopian nightmare. Now let's compare him to the Bioshock infinite villain. A racist caricature who felt that black people should just be grateful he didn't tread on any dogshit that day as he marched all over them as he literally went from nonsensical action to nonsensical action for no other reason than someone had to cause conflict in the video game. Garrosh is even worse than that.

[Jastall]

I agree that he didn't give a shit either way, but he purposefully based his plan on Baine tipping them off. Him targeting the civilians afterwards is conjecture. It's more likely they were collateral from his naval victory in Tanaris.

It's also conjecture that they were collateral. What's not is they ended up as torture victims and target practice, rather than simple captives or innocents caught in a bad act. Regardless of how and when they ended up there, these crimes are beyond the pale within the scope of the faction war.

As to Theramore, my issue is not the act of its destruction, it's everything around it. Jaina is super for peace (as in, holds a summit in Theramore itself super for peace) late Wrath/early Cata, but still allows the Alliance to use it as a base against the Horde for... some... reason. It never gets explained and it never comes up again when Jaina's litany of self-guilt is brought to the fore in BfA. Tides of War never brings up that the Alliance attacked in the Barrens for... some... reason. The Horde never uses anything close to such a potent device again for some reason (perhaps excluding the ICBM catapults that torched Teldrassil in five minutes flat). Garrosh is suddenly totes OK with nuking people after killing a guy for nuking people; the Doylist explanation is that Afriasabi dun goofed, but AFAIK Stonetalon is still canon in-universe. That could be explained as character development, had Garrosh gotten any in the game or even the books.

It all seems like a cheap shock value moment that doesn't make much sense but exists to drive the story in a predetermined direction, a harbinger of things to come in Mists and especially BfA.

Anyway, apparently the Mythic version of Denathrius (which looks like an awesome fight btw) may feature Garrosh. Much as I don't like the guy, I hope he has more of a role than as an extra NPC to kill. Would be pretty weird if a fairly important character gets offed in a Mythic-only phase if you ask me; there's precedent with Cho'gall in WoD, but if there's one expansion from which precedents should not be followed up on it's that one.