[Spoilers] Shadowlands: Afterlives Cinematic Discussion

[guisadop]

I don't get the point of the Revendreth video at all. We know there's an anima drought already - did this really need to be established in another video? Maybe it's related to revendreth questlines in Shadowlands?

[Aucald]

I don't get the point of the Revendreth video at all. We know there's an anima drought already - did this really need to be established in another video? Maybe it's related to revendreth questlines in Shadowlands?

It is. Basically highlights the growing corruption of Sire Denathrius and the Venthyr as a whole, and contrasts Denathrius' PR with the grim reality of the political situation in Revendreth.

[Combatbutler]

I don't get the point of the Revendreth video at all. We know there's an anima drought already - did this really need to be established in another video? Maybe it's related to revendreth questlines in Shadowlands?

It was pretty much just look at me I am the baddy of this zone.

[Syegfryed]

too short but at least it was good, i guess this one showed better the situation they are in.

I like how what he do is to sound like he is a good guy, doing everything he can, but the video show otherwise, a jb for people saying this one was going to be good jut because Kael.

I still don't think that is Garrosh, no tattoos at all, since there is random trolls maybe its just a random orc

[omeomorfismo]

uhm, in itself that cinematic is even good. but what is the point of establishing a functional society in an afterlife? in dont get it, they shouldnt all be purger of the sins? why should be riches and poors?

[formerShandalay]

I think they did a far better job this time with showing that a person's words are simply lies. While Denathrius was saying one thing, the pictures showed something very different.
And I think it showed very well that some people actually care about their duty and give everything for their covenant, but that there's corruption going on and the "order of things" that is supposed to sustain all of them is only being used to keep the masses obedient. The "order of things" may be good if it's taken seriously and everyone complies with it. But as soon as someone misuses it, it turns into a bad thing and completely goes against the goal it should serve.

[LemonDemonGirl]

This is going to sound dumb, but I'd really like an Afterlives: De Other Side. It could focus on Bwonsamdi's ascension and how he created his realm, and Mueh'Zala stealing some of his souls. But, I guess they could make that a comic too?

[Jastall]

It was pretty much just look at me I am the baddy of this zone.

Indeed, but it was done well enough that I can overlook it. The WOTLK cinematic was literally just Arthas raising a dragon with an ironic narration as the backdrop, but it was still very effective.

[Moonrage]

uhm, in itself that cinematic is even good. but what is the point of establishing a functional society in an afterlife? in dont get it, they shouldnt all be purger of the sins? why should be riches and poors?

I agree, but many people have pointed out that the afterlife in WoW is more like another dimension with its own class system, rather that an actual afterlife for the deceased.

[CalamityHeart]

I liked it. I still think Bastion stands a bit above all the others, but Revendreth and Ardenweald were both really really good, with Maldraxxus a clear step below the other three.

Revendreth was a little bit weird, since it was the only one that didn't present a small piece of a larger implied narrative. It just traced its finger around the narrative itself and winked at us. It was markedly different from the other three cinematics, and I was a little sad that we really didn't get much of a story within the cinematic itself, but I still felt like it came out and accomplished what it was trying to do, and did so well. I really like Denathrius. I've been light on spoilers, so the only thing I knew coming into the cinematic was that he's the bad guy. I was not very much aware of Revendreth's culture, or just what kind of a villain Denathrius would present himself as, but I was pleasantly surprised. Revendreth was already shaping up to be my favorite zone, and this, like the Bastion and Ardenweald shorts, have really got me excited to get into it for real when Shadowlands launches.

[Trollokdamus]

Looks like this time those cinematics peaked with the first one (and what a peak it was). Nothing really happened in Afterlives: Revendreth. It's basically Denathrius narrating the premise of the zone at game's start. That's all.

I guess they had set wrong expectations with the first one. The point of these shorts is to give you a taste of the new zones so you're more likely to buy the expansion, not to act as a conduit for major lore reveals.

uhm, in itself that cinematic is even good. but what is the point of establishing a functional society in an afterlife? in dont get it, they shouldnt all be purger of the sins? why should be riches and poors?

This has to do with the Shadowlands being an artificial construct. They did not come into being naturally during the great ordering of Light and Shadow like Twisting Nether or the Great Dark but were created by the so-called Pantheon of Death at a later point. A realm created by mortals to serve as an artificial afterlife for other mortals.

[Coconut]

@Aucald Sorry for the late reply, work took over my time, as it usually happens when I start discussions that spin way out of the initial scope. I'll try to be briefer in my replies this time.

I've never really seen much of a parallel between Sylvanas and Illidan myself. Even back in the days when Sylvanas was more anti-hero than outright villain (e.g. WC3: TFT and very early WoW), they were anti-heroic in very different ways. Sylvanas was a kind of "go at it alone, screw the hierarchy" type of figure, forging the Forsaken into her army to fulfill a very private grievance against Arthas. There was a heroic outcome in that, as Arthas/The Lich King was definitely a force of evil that needed to be stopped, but that heroism was a distant second to her desire for vindication against the man himself. Illidan, by contrast, is more in the mold of your traditional anti-hero: use your enemies' power against them, a misunderstood iconoclast, made all the more essentially tragic by the need to set themselves apart from the heroes (either due to misplaced loyalty or a need to prove themselves, or in Illidan's case, both). In the course of their long term story-arcs both characters slowly left their initial anti-hero molds and adopted more polar ones: Sylvanas grew more and more villainous as her darkness consumed her, whereas Illidan grew more and more heroic as the rightness of his original cause was proven (though a degree of their original characterization still remains).

What I was trying to say was that there would be a parallel with WoA-era Illidan if she is tricking the Jailer (and with the Winter Queen if her rationale is in part benevolent, which we don't know that it's not). Of course, people are or were already calling her Garrosh 2.0, Gul'dan 2.0, Kerrigan 2.0, Azshara 2.0, Arthas 2.0, etc. In some cases character connections exist, but in others they are either non-existent or irrelevant to the thematic parallels, so they need not be required.

The rationale behind Teldrassil has already been given, pretty much straight from Sylvanas' own inner monologue. While it is possible that future events or unveiled plans might cause that event to be recontexualized to a degree, I don't think Sylvanas will be the agent of that herself. Influence from the Jailer, some kind of coercion, or any number of possibilities could present themselves, but the core of the rationale won't change - Sylvanas did it for the reasons she provided in A Good War and later explained further at the close of patch 8.2.5. Whether or not someone else was leaning on the tiller of destiny doesn't change her involvement.

I tend to take inner monologues with a big pinch of salt because as far as I know they are already inconsistent with her current supposed motivations. Whether we're dealing with intentional deception on the part of of the writers, poor continuity management or a behind the scenes narrative course correction during Legion, the writers haven't exactly been consistent with Sylvanas, and I say this with all understanding towards the challenges of the medium.

Much of this hinges on what your takeaway on these "nonsensical decisions and plot developments" happen to be. BfA wasn't a great story in and of itself, mostly down to the fact that regardless of the opening salvos the end of the story would also come down to how it actually ended: the resumption of the status quo and some species of effective detente between the Horde and the Alliance. Much of BfA's ludonarrative was necessarily constrained by this ultimate requirement - you can't take either faction off the table, as it were, and so there was no condition in which either faction could "win" the war (or even "lose" it). I agree this doesn't make for a great story, but it's rather easy to understand at the end of the day, there's not a whole lot of available subtext. Saurfang's insurrection was the force that brought the Horde back to the effective status quo of a separate peace, and Sylvanas' regime was doomed from the word "go" since her stated goal was the complete decimation of the Alliance (which can't happen as a result of the game's very nature). The Horde Loyalist campaign was a magician's hand to create a sense of player agency in the outcome, but there was sadly no real way to honor the Loyalist path as it required an impossible outcome to begin with. That's not really nonsensical, though; it's just a gameplay device requiring perhaps a bit too much suspension of disbelief to function properly.

Fixing the nonsensical story of BFA wasn't the only argument I gave, nor the strongest, though it is the freshest in our minds. Like I said, there are strong nostalgic echoes in Sylvanas actually opposing the Dreadlord team (whether that means that she will turn on the Jailer as the "Master" of the Nathrezim or that the Jailer himself is or was opposed to this Dreadlord conspiracy remains to be seen), as well as the Lich King team. Her new song from the last PTR update certainly hints to her Warcraft III themes.

The loyalist narrative isn't poor because it's not satisfying to the players who made that choice, it is poor because it provides Sylvanas with that much more canonical information and opportunities to foil the rebels, and yet she does not capitalize on them. If she was a cocksure character like Garrosh, that would have been fine, but as a character whose primary strength is her cunning, it doesn't look good at all. Why would we fear her as a villain if that was the case? If it was her plan all along, on the other hand, that would be superb.

Saurfang was both "in on it" for his part, but also cleverly manipulated as he wasn't given the full picture to begin with. Saurfang was on board with a war that would see the Alliance cowed and no longer willing to fight Horde supremacy - even if that outcome required some reprehensible acts to bring about (such as the murder of Malfurion Stormrage). He was not, however, on board for a war of outright genocide - not the kind of war Sylvanas was ready and quite willing to wage. Complicity in her brazen atrocities briefly silenced him prior to the Battle of Lordaeron, a sense that his willingness to kill an Alliance leader made him unable to judge Sylvanas in the manner befitting her crimes, but as time passed and her shadow grow longer and darker, he decided he must act as there was no one apparently left with the will or capacity to do so.

What I meant to say was that, in my hypothetical scenario, Saurfang wasn't in on the plan to orchestrate a rebellion. If my scenario is correct, however, his fight with Nathanos in Orgrimmar would count as foreshadowing/a parallel to his later fight with Sylvanas, both of them being orchestrated in order to distract a third party so that Sylvanas would be able to go through with her plans.

You really should get into the ASoIaF fandom, then such theorizing would feel more natural to you...

It's an interesting construction, but there's too much that belies out or in some places outright contradicts it. The most pointed is that Azshara reveals, by way of her memory being shown to all, that Sylvanas planned the deaths of everyone who went to Nazjatar - including her "loyal champion" the PC if they were on the Loyalist path:

That argument focuses too much on what Sylvanas says and too little on the context.

If you run through the Nazjatar story, including the raid, you will see that Azshara has no intention whatsoever to kill us, but rather wants to test us and make us serve her, up to the very last moment. One could argue that Sylvanas wanting us dead was exactly what made Azhara think that we would make useful tools, and created an opportunity for us to get close. Otherwise, she would have had ample opportunities to kill us and take the Heart of Azeroth herself.

P.S. Since it came out before I managed to comment, I might as well say that I enjoyed the Revendreth clip. Short and sweet. Possibly my favourite, depending on how the Ardenweald one will relate to the story in the future.

[Beloren]

Revendreth looks like it's full of Elves, especially night elves. Even their ears look Night elven.

Hmmm.. theories?


If you think about it, night elves were most prideful during the first invasion of the Legion, and their largest genocide of millions if not billions happened then. Since they came to their senses, or one group anyway did, they haven't suffered that many deaths at all, until recently. But the recent genocide souls all went to the maw, so it's hte pre-sundering night elves that dominate.


The high elves weren't bad people, so their genocide woudl likely have many going to Oribos I reckon, with Kael'thas and his sunfuries going to Revendreth.

What do you think? Arden Welad strikes me for nature lovers, so druids ofc, and maybe most of the Darnassiaan night elves, Tauren - would go there. I wonder if shaman types also go there

[Moonrage]

Revendreth looks like it's full of Elves, especially night elves. Even their ears look Night elven.

Hmmm.. theories?


If you think about it, night elves were most prideful during the first invasion of the Legion, and their largest genocide of millions if not billions happened then. Since they came to their senses, or one group anyway did, they haven't suffered that many deaths at all, until recently. But the recent genocide souls all went to the maw, so it's hte pre-sundering night elves that dominate.


The high elves weren't bad people, so their genocide woudl likely have many going to Oribos I reckon, with Kael'thas and his sunfuries going to Revendreth.

What do you think? Arden Welad strikes me for nature lovers, so druids ofc, and maybe most of the Darnassiaan night elves, Tauren - would go there. I wonder if shaman types also go there

The people you saw were all Venthyr, the only thing they have in common with Night Elves are the big ass ears.

[Lahis]

Revendreth looks like it's full of Elves, especially night elves. Even their ears look Night elven.

Hmmm.. theories?


If you think about it, night elves were most prideful during the first invasion of the Legion, and their largest genocide of millions if not billions happened then. Since they came to their senses, or one group anyway did, they haven't suffered that many deaths at all, until recently. But the recent genocide souls all went to the maw, so it's hte pre-sundering night elves that dominate.


The high elves weren't bad people, so their genocide woudl likely have many going to Oribos I reckon, with Kael'thas and his sunfuries going to Revendreth.

What do you think? Arden Welad strikes me for nature lovers, so druids ofc, and maybe most of the Darnassiaan night elves, Tauren - would go there. I wonder if shaman types also go there

Yes, very Night Elvish.

[Jastall]

Found this in Youtube comments, and had to share it;

Gromm: We will never be slaves

Denathrius: Ha ha, garrosh battery go brrrr

[Syegfryed]

Revendreth looks like it's full of Elves, especially night elves. Even their ears look Night elven.

Hmmm.. theories?


If you think about it, night elves were most prideful during the first invasion of the Legion, and their largest genocide of millions if not billions happened then. Since they came to their senses, or one group anyway did, they haven't suffered that many deaths at all, until recently. But the recent genocide souls all went to the maw, so it's hte pre-sundering night elves that dominate.


The high elves weren't bad people, so their genocide woudl likely have many going to Oribos I reckon, with Kael'thas and his sunfuries going to Revendreth.

What do you think? Arden Welad strikes me for nature lovers, so druids ofc, and maybe most of the Darnassiaan night elves, Tauren - would go there. I wonder if shaman types also go there

dude, not everything is about elves, not every point ear is an elf, they are venthyr

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

I still don't think that is Garrosh, no tattoos at all, since there is random trolls maybe its just a random orc

I thought the same thing but I went back and paused 2:00, you can see tattoos on his shoulders. Also you can count the tusks and earing and they all match.

[Syegfryed]

I thought the same thing but I went back and paused 2:00, you can see tattoos on his shoulders. Also you can count the tusks and earing and they all match.

its the tattoo on his jaw that is missing, but like i said to the other dude, maybe blizzard just forgot his mark

[Beloren]

The people you saw were all Venthyr, the only thing they have in common with Night Elves are the big ass ears.

THe cinematic, showed new souls being siphoned/re-conditioned.. and they were clearly night elven judging by the ears, or was it an optical illusions.