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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Yes I'm aware but your entire comparison is raider vs M+ player, but in reality thats a dishonest comparison cause you are actually doing 2 M+ players where 1 raids and 1 doesn't
    Even without counting options from M+ its still better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    O so we are also assuming full clearing mythic raid week 1... interesting. We should calculate gear acquisition based on something ~5 guilds can do globally? Then correlate that to being the average for all "raiders" against what the average M+ player does? Weird hill to fight on. In a more realistic world a raider will spend 8-12 hours a week progging and you wont see 3/3 mythic raid bonus pool for a month or 2.
    Read what I said fully.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    Going off bfa for a comparison, average dungeon is 1-2 perfect to very well itemized pieces that you can coin for, raid boss is < 1. You are still more likely to to hit the raid pieces faster with coins because of smaller pools but you also have less access to the high lvl versions of the pieces that come from the end of the raid. (cant coin bosses you arent on but 15's are clearable right away)
    Except M+ loot is not 16 ilvls behind (technically with that gear scaling its more like 20 ilvls now). But just 10. And still most loot drops are best from raid.




    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    What % of raiders will gain more than 1 M+ option? What % of raiders will gain 2+ options from mythic raid within the first 3 weeks? What % of M+ players will participate in some raid content and get a raid option? You can't assume the options that favor you.
    At the start? 90% of M raiders will go for at least 2 options.

    And the thing is. Even if you participate as M+ player in raids then best you could go for is heroic.

    Trying to main M+ will get you stuck forever in limbo, unable to progress.

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Valette View Post
    Theres a "cheat" to combat this. You can just log out -> log into an alt -> heal your pets -> log back into your main -> try again
    Yeah, I know about that one. It's still annoying cause a couple strats in the most recent dungeon are of the "spam aoe and healing moves for 60 rounds and hope the enemy doesn't get too many crits." Thanks for informing, though.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  3. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    WRONG.

    You only get the same option if you're mythic raiding. A heroic raider will get heroic options. Someone doing the easier than heroic raiding +15 will get mythic ilvl. To be fair, +15 should only give heroic ilvl chest options.
    And that is why you need to do a +15 and not a +10. So that you cannot easily obtain mythic ilvl gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    I mean, playing the whole game is a big effort, what do i get in RL for puting up with that?
    Do you know the difference between a relative comparison and an absolute statement?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    eh... what? if you are lucky it will take 16 weeks, as of now if you are lucky it takes... 16 weeks... you still only get one item per week, so the luck is partialy eliminated, but it still takes ages, nothing changed about weekly, well 14 is enough now, thats mildly positive change but not worth what we are loosing...
    Fuck me. Why do you talk about math if you have no idea. You are saying that winning the lottery for millions of money is just like getting 5 green lights in a row.
    EVERYTHING changed about the weekly. You get 3 different slots to choose from each week. This helps so much and makes the system so much better... Just the fact that you do not realize that, is proof that you have no clue what you are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It's normal gear, it's 2.5 tiers lower than what you get in mythic.
    Have you even checked any of the ilvls? How can you be so confident in BS. Mythic +14 rewards 210 ilvl. HC is 213, normal is 200. How is normal equal to M+. Please do explain.

  4. #344
    Why do M+ fans think it’s fair that their gear should be equal Or close to mythic drops From raid when they get an unlimited about of bites at the cake?

    I think over 15+ should reward mythic equiv gear if after completing a run, they are locked out from doing M+ for the remainder of the lockout period.

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by LDancer View Post
    Why do M+ fans think it’s fair that their gear should be equal Or close to mythic drops From raid when they get an unlimited about of bites at the cake?

    I think over 15+ should reward mythic equiv gear if after completing a run, they are locked out from doing M+ for the remainder of the lockout period.
    Imagine if it worked like horrific visions. 1 470 piece a week and dassit

  6. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    It's much weaker and most will not clear a +14 for many, many months, if ever while HC raids are just a cakewalk.
    People that take months to clear +14 won't even clear normal let alone heroic and you think that justifies +15 giving max ilvl gear? +15 is by far the easiest way to get the best gear. All you need is 4 average players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keldarepewpew View Post
    Because of mythic plus endless repeatable high tier loot everyone and his mother was forced to farm it like crazy. Good riddance i dont want to be f orced to spend time inside of mythic plus just so i can raid/pvp.
    I didn't realise that PvP and raiding was locked behind doing m+. No one has ever forced you to do anything in wow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  7. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    Just for reference, here is the stat increase on a given item from Nathria on all 4 levels of difficulty:

    RF Normal Heroic Mythic
    Item Level 187 200 213 226
    Main Stat 56 64 72 82
    Stamina 90 106 126 149
    Sec. 1 48 52 56 61
    Sec 2 64 69 75 81
    Increase
    Main Stat - 8 8 10
    Stamina - 16 20 23
    Sec. 1 - 4 4 5
    Sec 2 - 5 6 6

    Based on those increments, it is reasonable to assume a similar item with an ilvl of 210 would have about 70 main stat, 120 stam, 54 on stat 1, and 73 on stat 2. I know scaling will be different in SL but I am hard pressed to see that level of granularity being hugely impactful to player performance. Which kind of makes you wonder why they don't just make Mythic + gear 213 as well, but it doesn't really seem like a big deal, performance wise.
    Because it means you won't be able to trade gear in Heroic right away to funnel it. 3 ilvls less is not much, that's very true, but it IS major when it comes to combating split raiding. I don't have an issue with that, M+ being a repeatable source of gear means having slightly lower ilvl than a non-repeatable one makes some sense, but lowering the drop rate as well just makes the farming longer for those who farm, and the normal gearing process longer for those who do not.

    Then again, if raid bosses also drop less gear, that's less of an issue and more equaling the playing field so as to deliberately distribute fewer items to players.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  8. #348
    So close yet so far off.

    Blizzard doesn't want raiders to feel compelled to grind M+ at the beginning of a tier so they're willing to kneecap the rewards for an entire fucking season so that raiders have less on their plate. Coupled with removing the amount of gear from M+, they're clearly telling players that they would much prefer you find a guild and start raiding. A previous version of myself that loved raiding would be completely ambivalent to this change since I'm one of the few people who enjoyed WoD; however, the version of myself that currently plays WoW almost exclusively plays M+ so this will definitely be changing the way I play the game come SL. I don't necessarily think this will be a bad thing but if Blizzard was really concerned with M+ gearing being more efficient than raid gearing then they could simply apply the ilvl caps for the first two months of "progression" then uncap it once we move into the drought going into the next patch/expansion. They won't do this, of course, but it's nice to imagine a world where Blizzard actually cared about player feedback.

  9. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    You won't. You'll get decked out in gear lower ilvl than a mythic raider in 13-14 weeks if you only do M+ and thats IF you're lucky enough to get only the slots you need.
    More likely is that'll it'll take 20+ weeks and your gear will still be way less optimized than a mythic raider. It's also not likely that even most mythic raiders will get a mythic level chest the first few weeks so you'll probbaly have to add another 3-4 weeks to thoes 20.

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    One item per week that you might need, yeah. You need 12-14 items and of different slots.
    Thats if you can clear a as well. Most will not and especailly not players who only do HC.
    Why are you talking about mythic raiders? They are done with m+ after a month. M+ is only valuable to heroic raiders and below as these people don't have access to mythic raid loot. Mythic + should only reward chest with heroic gear to match the kind of player that uses it. Mythic + is far from the most difficult content so it shouldn't reward the highest ilvl gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  10. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Why are you talking about mythic raiders? They are done with m+ after a month. M+ is only valuable to heroic raiders and below as these people don't have access to mythic raid loot. Mythic + should only reward chest with heroic gear to match the kind of player that uses it. Mythic + is far from the most difficult content so it shouldn't reward the highest ilvl gear.
    Theres normally a handful of hard mythic raid bosses, normally ones later on the raid. And they normally give you 3 dead easy bosses that drop highest level loot.

    But you're saying a 15+ isnt hard so shouldnt reward the same ilvl as those first 3 bosses of mythic raid. What a joke.

    One tank, one healer, dps need to actually do their jobs well and assist in softening damage because m+ has quite impactful rotating affixes. Some bosses on tyrannical are definitely more engaging/challenging than most mythic raid bosses so save it.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Why are you talking about mythic raiders? They are done with m+ after a month. M+ is only valuable to heroic raiders and below as these people don't have access to mythic raid loot. Mythic + should only reward chest with heroic gear to match the kind of player that uses it. Mythic + is far from the most difficult content so it shouldn't reward the highest ilvl gear.
    Translation for us non spergs"FUCK YOU, I RAID MYTHIC AND I GET TO FLEX MY DIGITAL DICK IN YOUR FACE AGAIN"

    It seriously boggles my mind why people are so against multiple avenues of gearing. The prestige of raid gear is the 3D models. You get the WoW equivalent of a shiny set of armor. M+ players get generic looking crap that functions the same, and PvP players desperately need a PvP stat or at least some way to completely disable PvE trinkets in the PvP environment.

    Just keep ilvls close to the same for all the hard content(Arena, Mythic Raids, Mythic 15+ and up), cap the amount of gear you can loot from M+ per week at a specific ilvl functioning kind of like how end of vision chests work and bring back set bonuses that function only within the raid instances. I fixed gearing.

  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Raiding gives you the best gear, the fastest by far. M+ still has a place though.
    In Shadowlands M+ is dead content for anyone that does raiding at HC or above though. Same goes for PvP.
    The only thing that is "dead content" is farming it on end for sub-heroic ilvl equipment.
    The end of the week chest will still award a mythic raid ilvl equipment piece (which you will choose from 1-3 items).

    I find it funny how you list "anyone who does heroic raids" among those the content is dead for...
    Guilds usually get stuck on heroic because they can't get a reliable roster of 20 people. Doing a bunch of M+ (with at least 1 being a level 15 key) is going to be the main place their players will be able to progress once they hit the hc ilvl cap.


    Then why can't the same be applied to raiding?
    It was for the entirety of BFA; it was hardly optimal.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    The only thing that is "dead content" is farming it on end for sub-heroic ilvl equipment.
    The end of the week chest will still award a mythic raid ilvl equipment piece (which you will choose from 1-3 items).

    I find it funny how you list "anyone who does heroic raids" among those the content is dead for...
    Guilds usually get stuck on heroic because they can't get a reliable roster of 20 people. Doing a bunch of M+ (with at least 1 being a level 15 key) is going to be the main place their players will be able to progress once they hit the hc ilvl cap.



    It was for the entirety of BFA; it was hardly optimal.
    Yeah so the only thing it's good for is a random item at the end of the week (if you do a lage amount of them you get 1 of 3). The actual dungeons don't reward you with anything. Thats the issue.

    It was not optimal for raiders but it was for people that prefered other content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Why are you talking about mythic raiders? They are done with m+ after a month. M+ is only valuable to heroic raiders and below as these people don't have access to mythic raid loot. Mythic + should only reward chest with heroic gear to match the kind of player that uses it. Mythic + is far from the most difficult content so it shouldn't reward the highest ilvl gear.
    What? Why? YOu make no sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    People that take months to clear +14 won't even clear normal let alone heroic and you think that justifies +15 giving max ilvl gear? +15 is by far the easiest way to get the best gear. All you need is 4 average players.
    What are you talking about? You get one item per week from m+, it'll take you a few weeks to clear your first 14+ and you need very specific items for a full setup. A full setup is 14 items but one is taken up by your legendary so if you're impossibly lycky and manage to clear a mythic + 14 the first week then it take 13 weeks to get a full gear.

    Even then, mythic raids still drop better gear.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Fuck me. Why do you talk about math if you have no idea. You are saying that winning the lottery for millions of money is just like getting 5 green lights in a row.
    not what i said by sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo far... so you put words in my mouth and then say im stupid... but sure, not understanding what someone said means HE is stupid, not the other way around, keep believeing that...

    yes weely changed, BUT its still random, so after 3 weeks, when you have 3 mythic items equiped, its still possible to NEVER EVER get any upgrade from it... is it highly unlikely? sure, but not impossible...

    and as i said before, which you completely twisted, it takes MINIMUM of 16 weeks to get fully geared from wekly chest, same as now...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2020-09-18 at 05:38 AM.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post

    Have you even checked any of the ilvls? How can you be so confident in BS. Mythic +14 rewards 210 ilvl. HC is 213, normal is 200. How is normal equal to M+. Please do explain.
    Right, one item just sligtly above normal (average ilvl) per run but still wrose than HC. Also, mythic 14 rewards you with 207 and so does the last bosses in normal.

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Yeah so the only thing it's good for is a random item at the end of the week (if you do a lage amount of them you get 1 of 3). The actual dungeons don't reward you with anything. Thats the issue.

    It was not optimal for raiders but it was for people that prefered other content.
    IIRC the number for "1 out of 3 items" is 10, with "1 out of 2 items" being available for 4 finished dungeons that means you could aswell just do:
    1 mythic+15
    the rest of them on +0
    and rake in the weekly reward at mythic itemlevel.

    After a certain point M+ dungeons always became useless, and especially cause they are grind-able we got to this point rather quickly.
    The only thing having 465 ilvl items (while heroic dropped 460 ilvl items) in there achieved was forcing raiders to farm M+ early in the patch to get a "one-up" on mythic bosses.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    After a certain point M+ dungeons always became useless, and especially cause they are grind-able we got to this point rather quickly.
    The only thing having 465 ilvl items (while heroic dropped 460 ilvl items) in there achieved was forcing raiders to farm M+ early in the patch to get a "one-up" on mythic bosses.
    People love using this word when talking about M+.

    No one is forcing you to mindlessly run M+ all day, How about actually gearing up from the previous raid difficulty like the old days instead of just selling heroic runs for gold and gearing up your alts.
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    People love using this word when talking about M+.

    No one is forcing you to mindlessly run M+ all day, How about actually gearing up from the previous raid difficulty like the old days instead of just selling heroic runs for gold and gearing up your alts.
    And other people keep hanging onto this word as if it's about slavery.
    We do gear them up via previous difficulty, but when the next step, which is 5 ilvls higher is M+ you hardly get a choice.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    As a mythic raider: The new system sucks like hell. I will log in twice a week for raiding progression and one quick 14 and thats it. Fuck this new system, there is literally nothing wortwhile to do once you set a foot in mythic.
    Titanforging sucks, best items in mythic raids only (and just last 2 bosses) sucks, farming outside raids sucks, raid loging sucks... Dear Mythic raider, could you give some example what DOESNT suck for you?

  20. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    IIRC the number for "1 out of 3 items" is 10, with "1 out of 2 items" being available for 4 finished dungeons that means you could aswell just do:
    1 mythic+15
    the rest of them on +0
    and rake in the weekly reward at mythic itemlevel.

    After a certain point M+ dungeons always became useless, and especially cause they are grind-able we got to this point rather quickly.
    The only thing having 465 ilvl items (while heroic dropped 460 ilvl items) in there achieved was forcing raiders to farm M+ early in the patch to get a "one-up" on mythic bosses.
    No, thats not how it works, sadly.

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