[SPOILER]Return of Garrosh?

[Gref]

In the end, the biggest mistake wasn't that blizz made Garrosh into a villian, the bigger one was Thrall not putting Garrosh in his place and make him earn the position of Warchief. Takes more to lead the horde than be a good warrior. Takes wisdom and true leadership which Garrosh never showed. I wish they provided the time for him to grow, and lead the horde in a new future, but that wasn't the case. Again, that wasn't even a thing prior to MoP.

not related to the topic but just a thought I had while reading. Vanilla Thrall was absolutely badass. How he talks to you when you have those low level and high level quests. when you hand in those dragon heads etc. Then we have this sadface Thrall now. makes me sad as well.

[tommyhil622]

not related to the topic but just a thought I had while reading. Vanilla Thrall was absolutely badass. How he talks to you when you have those low level and high level quests. when you hand in those dragon heads etc. Then we have this sadface Thrall now. makes me sad as well.

Yea definitely miss that version of Thrall. During vanilla and most of WC3, Thrall was one of my favorite warcraft lore characters. But overtime for better or worse, depending on how you look at it, I began to dislike the version of Thrall we ended up with. I was hoping after the whole Slyvannas ordeal that he would take the mantel once more and be something close to what he used to be, or at least try, but it wasn't the case. Unfortunately I don't think we'll see that Thrall again standing between two pyres donning the black armor. Part of it is the imagery that miss as well.

[Boo Radley]

this is one of the most retarded discussions ever to exist on the wow forums. Can people stop trying to judge the actions in the wow fantasy universe based on 20-21st century morals and laws? It sounds more insane than <the Garrosh did nothing wrong> crowd. The whole warcrimes section of MOP was a massive mistake and shows the lack of historical knowledge, understanding and imagination on the part of the "writers".

Jaina made Theramore a legitimate military target as soon as he let the alliance march through it and start making durator invasion plans and even attacked barrens through it. They were given a warning and even time to escape before it was bombed. She was never forced to face her mistake and take any blame for breaking her neutrality which was established between her and thrall after the MH battle and lasted for years without any provocation from horde until she decided to invite the alliance over.


- In medieval times when "knights" raided towns and cities on the other side of the border, they intentionally maimed civilians, raped woman and pillaged homes and fields just for fun and to force the opposing lord/population to have to take care of more cripples and bastard kids.
- People were throwing fucking mustard gas left and right in the ww1.
- US NUKED 2 cities full of civilians in 1945 and was using napalm on urban/civilian settings in freaking 70s.

Warcraft universe is set in a much more older and savage universe and there is no reason why Garrosh shouldn't have mana bombed the city based on the in-universe laws and culture of the time. The concept of civilian vs military target shouldn't even be a thing yet.

Hi there. I'm pretty well credentialed in history, especially the combined effects of the first and second world wars and their immediate aftermath, so while I choose not to list anything as to wave it around as an appeal to authority I can safely say that I have consulted enough sources to feel I can accurately represent the situation.

The military use of chemical agents was banned prior to the first world war by the Hague convention. They also knew it would be seen as an incredibly bad public relations move for their side's effort. The "legitimizing" factor came from the French using tear gas- a non lethal irritant as a defensive area denial tool, which was legal under the Hague convention- to which the Germans took exception and allowed one absolutely mad chemist to go to town creating chemical weapons. Once one side started using them it became hard to back down, as this was the first truly modern war nobody knew how to handle the developments in technology and ultimately barbarity. There's a reason the war is often not talked about despite being the single most rapid advancement of technology in the history of the human species- because nobody is proud of the things that happened. It became something that was immediately banned in the aftermath of the war, with all but the most belligerent of nations worldwide signing onto, and the threat of that type of warfare becoming openly engaged in was one of the great deterrents that effectively prevented it(even a losing Hitler with millions of tons of gas in storage did not agree to use them as after being in a gas attack he thought it too unreasonable.)

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen for military reasons- both had substantial military production facilities as well as troop garrisons and training centers. The list of potential cities to use the bombs in was in the teens, as this sort of layout was a very common thing- transportation was rather limited so the cities were a logical place to concentrate these things. The second attack was a poorly dropped bomb due to cloud cover and winds combining to put the mission off course, this bomb missed its target but did significantly less damage to the city and civilians than if it had been the intended target(High hills hemmed in the explosion comparative to the extremely flat terrain the first bomb hit.) It was also a decision that was wrestled with heavily by both FDR in the last months of his life and Harry Truman, who thought the blame was too great for anyone else to bear and emphatically told anyone who asked to blame him and only him for the choice that was made. Ultimately the decision was made whether or not to deploy the bomb, and it was chosen by Truman to be used as a deterrent to a land invasion that was estimated to cause 1 million US casualties, minimum 5 million japanese dead in military-caused casualties and tens of millions of deprivation(starvation, thirst, exposure. suffocation from the phenomenon known as a "firestorm" and other things) deaths of civilians. Truman was a very honest, personable man with a commitment to do the best for those he was in charge of and decided that while he would never be able to accept that he had condemned people for where they lived, the amount of people that would potentially not have to die because of it would let him sleep at night. Ultimately he was proven right.
Neither of those compare to standing out in the open cackling maniacally while you watch people dying and telling a courtroom of people you would do it again.

If you're going to use the argument of "dont compare it to real life" make sure youre using real life as your example.

[docterfreeze]

So he's definitely going to be a character in shadowlands. The writing team has changed a lot since Cata. Let's just say more progressive. Hope they don't water down his personality.

[Dastreus]

A belligerent idiot who's reaction to 99% of thing was irrational rage was a strong symbol of the horde? Grommash, Ner'Zhul, Doomhammer, and nearly every other major horde leader was vastly more interesting, well written, and made understandable decisions and still kept the warrior clan nature of the horde. Even the demon enraged hordes still had a level of cunning and tactics to them. Yeah burn him to the ground.

Garrosh was a dogshit character for dogshit 12 year olds angry at the world with a weird idea of masculinaty where your first, second, and 100th reaction is to take your rage to 11 and smash.

Correct on all accounts. Garrosh has been dog shit since Wrath.

"Oh hey we're invading a land crawling with undead and they just raise the dead as more of them. Maybe we shouldn't actively fight with the alliance."

Garrosh: "ME SMASH HUMEE BASES AND CORPSE BASES"

"Garrosh, that'll just mean more undea-"
Garrosh: "THEN SMASH MORE DEADERS."

Is basically how the Garrosh bit went in Warsong Hold.

[OokOok]

https://www.wowhead.com/news=317997/...urn-of-garrosh

"At this point in her political history, she hadn't committed as many atrocities as Garrosh did upon his death"

lawl

Garrosh destroyed theramore
Sylvannas destroyed Darnassus

Garrosh waged war
Sylvannas waged war

Garrosh went back in time and reopened the portal to invade azeroth
Sylvannas opened a portal between azeroth and the maw

Sylvannas killed innocent people to turn them into undead
garrosh enslaved races that weren't orcs

I mean........BUT OH WAIT Sylvannas is a woman so..she's not allowed to be bad

[Super Dickmann]

It's also conjecture that they were collateral. What's not is they ended up as torture victims and target practice, rather than simple captives or innocents caught in a bad act. Regardless of how and when they ended up there, these crimes are beyond the pale within the scope of the faction war.

As to Theramore, my issue is not the act of its destruction, it's everything around it. Jaina is super for peace (as in, holds a summit in Theramore itself super for peace) late Wrath/early Cata, but still allows the Alliance to use it as a base against the Horde for... some... reason. It never gets explained and it never comes up again when Jaina's litany of self-guilt is brought to the fore in BfA. Tides of War never brings up that the Alliance attacked in the Barrens for... some... reason. The Horde never uses anything close to such a potent device again for some reason (perhaps excluding the ICBM catapults that torched Teldrassil in five minutes flat). Garrosh is suddenly totes OK with nuking people after killing a guy for nuking people; the Doylist explanation is that Afriasabi dun goofed, but AFAIK Stonetalon is still canon in-universe. That could be explained as character development, had Garrosh gotten any in the game or even the books.

It all seems like a cheap shock value moment that doesn't make much sense but exists to drive the story in a predetermined direction, a harbinger of things to come in Mists and especially BfA.

Anyway, apparently the Mythic version of Denathrius (which looks like an awesome fight btw) may feature Garrosh. Much as I don't like the guy, I hope he has more of a role than as an extra NPC to kill. Would be pretty weird if a fairly important character gets offed in a Mythic-only phase if you ask me; there's precedent with Cho'gall in WoD, but if there's one expansion from which precedents should not be followed up on it's that one.

There is no canon version of this event and it's barely even referenced. It's one of those things that transparently existed solely to try and get the playerbase to be further against Garrosh simply because his writing was unintentionally more nuanced. The guy was an abrasive dick for the entirety of Mists, but he was not motiveless and had moments of actual characterization. Compare and contrast the current Warchief de jour, hence things that are either blatantly OOC - like his unit of warlocks and Forsaken using Blight, or just contradictory and unexplained - like the Theramore captives to help fix this up. But it did still happen, so it's on his Revendreth wrap sheet.

That having been said, I don't really take much issue with either the nuking or with Jaina's actions but so much the retarded way they're framed. Jaina being a woman of peace but knowing that Garrosh would likely not allow Theramore to stick around and thus allowing the Alliance to act through her land isn't illogical. She's responsible for a city and she knows she likely won't be able to treat with him. This having bad consequences as the closest front to reinforce is the tauren one ditto. In turn, Garrosh intended to use the Stonetalon bomb - but not on a civilian target. In Theramore's case, he also didn't use it on a civilian target - no matter how things went, his strategy would always result in the civilians leaving, be it intended or a side-effect.

What kills it is that Jaina's actions in Cataclysm are never discussed by the characters, yet they still happen since all the Alliance positions exist in the book and the attack on Taurajo is mentioned. It's just that the only one who seems to be basing any policy on them is Garrosh, so he comes off as the lone sane man among people with severe brain damage. In turn, he's written in every scene to be a raving tool who believes that everyone around him is a subversive dumbass, even when the core of what he's doing is both morally and strategically sound and this assessment of his is demonstrably correct. Even later on, every subsequent portrayal of Theramore doesn't retcon it, but it does always treat it as being a vast loss of civilian life which it isn't.

Tides of War is a mess that looks better only by virtue of not being Before the Storm. And that after 5.4, Blizzard backtracked and in as much as he existed in WoD he was intentionally nuanced. Compare and contrast how in WoD 2.0 Sylvanas only becomes more and more boring. And also here's to hoping that Garrosh is patch content not a boss add.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Goodness me I've had it with recurring characters.

Either don't kill them off or let them stay dead for good, all this cameo/redemption bullshit is ridiculous.

It's sort of the theme for the expansion, seeing the fate of past characters. You should get used to it for this expansion because I bet there will be more past characters in patch content.

[Dellis0991]

With sincerity...

[Syegfryed]

Undercity and Silvermoon aren't on kalimdor. .

and? point still stands

Yes Pre-Mop he had the potential to be a good leader but he never achieved this. Yes Mop painted him as the main villian, but he had many flaws prior to that.

When did i said he was not flawed? i said he had many flaws, thats why he was a good character, not a good guy, his flaws that fleshed out a more realistic person

In the end, the biggest mistake wasn't that blizz made Garrosh into a villian, the bigger one was Thrall not putting Garrosh in his place and make him earn the position of Warchief. Takes more to lead the horde than be a good warrior. Takes wisdom and true leadership which Garrosh never showed. I wish they provided the time for him to grow, and lead the horde in a new future, but that wasn't the case. Again, that wasn't even a thing prior to MoP.

it was blizzard "fault" for choosing to be a villain, he was in a "neutral" spot, and they could go either way.

Garrosh was not a leader, but a warrior, and thrall put him there anyway, with people who should advice him only wanting to undermine him, it was not rly just his fault that things went to shit

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Yea, you're right, I misplaced the attack on Theramore in my head.
Still, "all of Kalimdor" would have taken him to Hyjal with its inherent power and the Wild Gods and potentially ousting and fighting the trolls would have put him at odds with the Loa too.

he would not go to hyjal but to teldrassil for sure, hyjal is more or less a neutral place, and hard to invade, he would only set sight there if the alliance start attacking from it, not rly a big deal.

And Garrosh didn't want to destroy, but take it, he would never burn down teldrassil by example but take it

This is why I think he was kind of short-sighted and should have tried to first learn more about the world and its complexities. Had he been able to swallow at least some of his pride and maybe taken a little more time for the terraforming of the lands he already held, he could have been a lot better established.

Terraforming isn't a simple thing to do, cause if it was everyone would do and famine would not exist, plus, there is no time, those things take time to fully be on play, thats why immediate solutions were necessary for survival, like sure you can plant food, and in some months they will give you sustenance, but what about now? we die of hungry? Garrosh could look like a fool but he knew things, and the mess was not all his fault, the alliance start the cata-mop war with varian, they invaded horde lands first, the night elves cut all the trade and killed the orcs and their caravans(they were so fr up azshara too, in cata they were ttacking the very gates of orgrimmar), and no one in the horde(his advisors)saw the mess they were, he had to do something, not the heroic way but the pragmatic way

Only take Ashenvale back as far as the Warsong were in there already before Cata anyway. While you're there, also kill all the Satyr and cleanse their territory too (and then keep it, of course).

but he did that, the night elves just fought back too

Do not push further into Stonetalon while you still have armies stuck in the Barrens and the Tauren are still reeling from the attacks there. This is something Saurfang tried to teach him in Northrend, which he didn't listen to. Do not attack several enemies at once and stretch your forces thin if you can avoid it. Only one war at a time. He did not listen (and he did not actually have to learn it there, because Saurfang and later the player fixed all his blunders, so he came home a hero instead of a failure).

the problem here is more with the other horde forces, Baine by example was too much of a cow to not attack the alliance in his own lands

And his pride prevented him from learing later, too. He wasn't able to win decisively, but he never once questioned himself and if he maybe should change course and strategy. Saurfang had told him what not to do, Baine later told him there was a better way than recklessly starting fights, but he insisted on keeping doing that. And Blizzard decided that he would still push on instead of learning, and for that he needed the dark powers.

well he had to mantain some forces there or else he would lose, the alliance was also divided just like the horde, i think this is more of a problem of blizzard worldbuilding

Also, his peers weren't too supportive. I mean, I understand that Cairne was pissed with him, but his reaction towards Garrosh wasn't very in-character, even for an angry Cairne. And Vol'jin went about it the wrong way too. I love Vol'jin and I understand why he acted that way, but it wasn't wise or supportive, not actually trying to make Garrosh any better or actually 'advise' him. I don't know if it would have helped, but threatening him surely didn't either. And Vol'jin should have known that.

no leader supported Garosh, even when they were in open war against the alliance, vol'jin would rather just die instead of fighting back

So with those circumstances and with Garrosh dead set in his ways and in his goals, he had no other choice but to turn to dark powers. Not demons or Fel, of course, but he also didn't consider that in the end it doesn't matter which dark power you deal with, it always leads down the same path. Or really... it doesn't matter if the power is dark or not, if your goal is conquest they are all bad, because they simply take your conquest and make it their own.

i don't think he rly need use the heart when he could use the mogu power, that was more like a plot device just to make him evil, True garrosh is wod garrosh by example, not corruping his own race, but going with steel and spikes

So, although I hope they don't simply bring dead characters to actual life, I really hope they maybe make Garrosh in the afterlife more heroic than villainous, once we free him. And I think we will see/free him, because he is just too important to be shown in a cinematic and then not be used. Maybe he can kick Sylvanas around once the Jailer takes his power away from her (this is speculation, but I think that will happen. Bwonsamdi warned about this in Shadows Rising and I think that was a hint^^)

nah, they will piss more on him, the new team don't like toxic males, they are eager to make everyone dislike him and make everyone who doesn't feel bad

[Daronokk]

Correct on all accounts. Garrosh has been dog shit since Wrath.

"Oh hey we're invading a land crawling with undead and they just raise the dead as more of them. Maybe we shouldn't actively fight with the alliance."

Garrosh: "ME SMASH HUMEE BASES AND CORPSE BASES"

"Garrosh, that'll just mean more undea-"
Garrosh: "THEN SMASH MORE DEADERS."

Is basically how the Garrosh bit went in Warsong Hold.

It worked though. It's exactly how the Lich King and the Scourge were defeated in the end, just by sheer force.

The foolishness of direct assault due to raising the death was never a storyline in Wrath. I know, it's strange but that's how it went. Garrosh's strategy worked, and he got the deserved credits for it in the end.

[TrueHorde]

@Syegfryed @Wildberry

Perhaps you are right...
They totally ruined Garrosh's character.Nothing could save or fix it after MoP.

[faithbane]

snip

Mate, I am not sure what you are on about especially with the "pretty well credentialed in history" comment. I got multiple degrees in history although my first degree is in cams, I do have proficiency in early 20th century political history. I can also tell you non of my past colleagues from anywhere around the world talks the way you do so I am not sure what kind of credentials you have. Only people that I've seen that talk the way you do are older Americans who grew up with propaganda or a kid who read a single book and now thinks he is an expert. You have an extremely western-romanticized view of history which would prevent you from keeping an open mind and have an objective view. I am just gonna dissect some of your bullshit below, although I'm sure you will ignore it anyway like all the other real examples I provided.

The only reason either party wasn't charged with war crimes after the ww1 was because the allies - specifically France, were the first to use chemical agents (with big encouragement from US btw - for reasons such as a positive trade impact, and weather forecast predicting strong winds blowing west to east that season) and not Germany, so after they won the war, they swept it under the rug. I can't believe that you even dare to say French use of tear gas in ww1 was legal.. it absolutely wasn't. The Hague treaty didn't just ban lethal gas, it banned ALL harmful gases and chemical warfare so what French did was absolutely illegal but they were with the allies so no one batted an eye and the only reason they didn't use a deadlier gas was because a method for industrial scale production of such a deadly gas wasn't invented until 1915... until Germany did it.

By the way that "mad German chemist" is a Nobel chemistry prize winner, world renown scientist and Jewish. It was one of the biggest ironies in life that Hitler killed millions of Jews by synthesizing a gas using a method that he invented.
Also, WW1 is discussed A LOT but it is just overshadowed by the impact and brutality of ww2 which is why you hear it less. First half of 20th century as a whole had a massive and rapid advancement in technology so trying to narrow it down just to ww1 is difficult. Even the advancements in ww2 which lead to modern computers, rocketry, the internet and many more had its foundations going back to 1920s. The roots of the "ww1" inventions go back to late 19th century wars, specially with France and Russia, as well as the battles in northern Africa and the Balkans.

The reason chemical agents weren't used widespread in ww2 were because of multiple reasons and non of them are what you believe:

1) they were unpredictable in the battlefield and could backfire easily. The gases were made colorless so a rogue wind blowing it back to your own frontline couldn't even be seen. Also, there were major problems with transportation for similar reasons. Tank warfare also made deploying chemical battles in the frontlines moot.
2) WW2 wasn't a conventional trench warfare, especially on the western fronts unlike the long drawn out battles of ww1 and fronts were shifting constantly which made it ineffective to use chemical agents
3) Chemical weapons were mainly a psychological warfare tool since its actual effectiveness were very small in battle. Throughout ww1, less then 1% of casualties were from chemical agents.
4) No, Hitler didn't hold back on using chemical weapons on battlefield because he was obeying some international treaty, lol. The man put millions of people in gas chambers, are you high?

When it comes to your "opinion" on the nuclear attacks on Japan - it reads like a 20th century US propaganda which is laughable really. The main reason Hiroshima was chosen as the first target was because it was a city that was not impacted by the conventional bombing runs that US was doing all over japan that destroyed many cities and it gave them a perfect test case to study the impact of the bomb. The obvious lie about the bomb being dropped to prevent the war from lasting longer has been proven false with documents showing Japan being ready to surrender and memos asking USSR to broker peace even but US just wanted to "play with their new toy" (Which is a rephrased direct quote from a ww2 general fyi..). You can't parrot US propaganda/opinion pieces as actual history. Many autobiographies, personal diaries, censored/hidden communications of the ww2 era has become public within the last couple decades, you don't have the luxury to be this ignorant with your "credentials".

Not only those bombs were extremely barbaric acts that targeted civilian populations, even the previous acts such as fire bombing urban Tokyo is debated as a war-crime. The only reason US wasn't charged with anything after the war is again because they came out as the victors and the western propaganda machine played its role.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

You mistake my critique for being unaware that this very much is the theme of the expansion.

It's a shit theme.

Then I guess for you the only thing to do is either quit or simply get over it. I remember back in MoP many people had a problem with the theme and skipped the expansion, but then you had people who tried to ignored it and it became a great experience for them. I've read for some people it's one of their favorites even though they don't like Pandaren.

[Syegfryed]

Then I guess for you the only thing to do is either quit or simply get over it. I remember back in MoP many people had a problem with the theme and skipped the expansion, but then you had people who tried to ignored it and it became a great experience for them. I've read for some people it's one of their favorites even though they don't like Pandaren.

the problem with the theme of revising old characters is blizzard past record of ruining old character, now basically, not even the dead are safe.

[tromage2]

Will be interesting to see where Nazgrim loyalty now is.
Still with the Warchief or now at the Ebon blade.

[Venziir]

Will be interesting to see where Nazgrim loyalty now is.
Still with the Warchief or now at the Ebon blade.

Nazgrim is 100% loyal to the Lich King, as he is most likely bound to his will as well.

[valax]

Sorry I realize this is off topic, but as far as these characters go we haven't seen them get take into the shadowlands yet right? Like in game? I assume that will occur during pre-patch or at the start of the expansion?

I expect next week a secret short to kickstart prepatch , could be wrong but in prepatch the leaders are already missing

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Did the video even confirm it was Garrosh?

nose ring and earrings , can't see clearly his tattoed jaw but i'm pretty sure it was Garry. edit: at 1:59 his neck tattoos are visibile

[Arikara]

Pffft, Garrosh belongs in the Maw. But sure, failing that, an eternity of torture over his own pride will do.

[Greengrim]

doubt it.
unlike ursoc, garrosh has a huuuge fanbase, who'd probably riot if they see garrosh again after 6 years, only for him to get perma destroyed.
and especially after BfA, im not sure blizz wants to risk potentially turning players away

Thrall has an even huger fan base. Look at his state. Blizz are quite accustomed to doing dumb shit already, so I don't see a problem with ending Garrosh soon as SL hits.