I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Yriel]

Do you know the difference between a relative comparison and an absolute statement?

Still, in the end it comes down to the question if you have fun doing what you are doing.
If you demand compensation for every activity i would ask myself why i spend time in game in the first place.

[Aggrophobic]

People love using this word when talking about M+.

No one is forcing you to mindlessly run M+ all day, How about actually gearing up from the previous raid difficulty like the old days instead of just selling heroic runs for gold and gearing up your alts.

Becuase if you came back 5 months after a tier was over you either needed people that were nice enough to boost you or you just had to wait for the next expansion.
Today, that would mean buying a boost for old content, or you know... Just buy a boost for the newest one anyway.

[Kaver]

Imagine if it worked like horrific visions. 1 470 piece a week and dassit

I was also thinking this. Maybe also let the bonus roll coin work that way. Of course there would still be some complications with the large loot pool but it would make it more fair I guess. I do however think the key requirement should then be higher for mythic gear. +15 is too easy.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously we are comparing it to normal/mythic loot. Item with bad stats can be worse than "bis" counterpart that is 15 ilvls lower. 16 in SL.

To actually match that power you need at least one of two good stat and THIRD stat. Any other combination is worse.
Unless you play class that has flat scaling but haven't seen that since mop.

If they increase the key requirement to +20 instead of +14-15 for mythic gear then I think it would be fine if they made the acquisition more comparable with some loot restrictions added to M+. But +14-15 is simply too easy and shouldn’t even provide good gear.

- - - Updated - - -

Obviously we are comparing it to normal/mythic loot. Item with bad stats can be worse than "bis" counterpart that is 15 ilvls lower. 16 in SL.

To actually match that power you need at least one of two good stat and THIRD stat. Any other combination is worse.
Unless you play class that has flat scaling but haven't seen that since mop.

If they increase the key requirement to +20 instead of +14-15 for mythic gear then I think it would be fine if they made the acquisition more comparable with some loot restrictions added to M+. But +14-15 is simply too easy and shouldn’t even provide good gear.

[Itori]

I think m+ and raids could coexist perfectly if they dropped raiding down to 10man and left it at that.

[Dracullus]

No, thats not how it works, sadly.

Do 5 (or 4 can't remember) M+7 and you have your 2 heroic quality items to choose from every week. This is something casual (but skilled at heroic raid level) will manage without problem.

What exactly is your problem with this system? Because I think experienced player like you should realize that less item drops are price for removing warforging, so good rewards from spamable M+ must be funneled into weekly chest.

[Kumorii]

It's a natural part of games that content that takes longer, requires more planning and more coordination should reap better rewards. Though this will cause some issues with trading in HC. Gonna have to run that more to gear up entire raid.

[Kauko]

I am not against this gearing changes... But while reading this topic, its funny how some raiders(mostly wannabe 1% which they are not) act as if they are the only player base in wow that should matter... Everyone should cater to them.

[Kalisandra]

While I don't disagree, what do you need the best gear if you are not tackling the best content. Like if you are not raiding you don't need anything higher than LFR. While some may do high M+, you don't need raid gear for that either, sure it helps, but it's not needed. Same with PvP, and people just doing WQs.

And, as the best raid teams can defeat mythic raids in remarkably poor gear, obviously raiders don't actually need upgrades from their raids either - they just need to play better. So, we've established that nobody actually needs the best gear, so it can be removed from the game. Done.

One of the rewards in MMORPGs is getting better gear. What's more better gear makes doing the content you like easier, no matter what that content is. While top-end PvP and mythic raiding should offer better gear than M+, which in turn should offer better gear than M0 and BGs, etc., and so on down the line, even LFR and people who just do WQs should have the opportunity to get gear that's better than they need. Firstly, that's the reward for doing the content, and secondly because feeling powerful is also a reward.

On top of this, a lot of specs feel fairly awful in poor gear. Why should people have to play their favourite spec and have it feel horrible just because they don't do content that 'deserves' good enough gear to make the spec play right?

[Demolished]

Theres normally a handful of hard mythic raid bosses, normally ones later on the raid. And they normally give you 3 dead easy bosses that drop highest level loot.

But you're saying a 15+ isnt hard so shouldnt reward the same ilvl as those first 3 bosses of mythic raid. What a joke.

One tank, one healer, dps need to actually do their jobs well and assist in softening damage because m+ has quite impactful rotating affixes. Some bosses on tyrannical are definitely more engaging/challenging than most mythic raid bosses so save it.

A mythic 15 is a joke, 100% of the time, no question. People are doing 28's. Do you know how much harder 28's are over a 15?
Each key level is 10% harder than the previous key level. A 15 is 245% more health and damage than a base mythic. A 28 is 1,191% more health and damage than a base mythic. Nearly 5 times as much damage and health as a 15. Try scaling that to raids, what boss would even be possible if you increased it's health by 5x and it's damage by 5x. NONE OF THEM. Don't even bother comparing difficulty.

If you want to argue that you should get better loot from m+, argue that 20's should drop better than heroic loot, then I might agree.

[Accendor]

Titanforging sucks, best items in mythic raids only (and just last 2 bosses) sucks, farming outside raids sucks, raid loging sucks... Dear Mythic raider, could you give some example what DOESNT suck for you?

I never complained about Titanforging. In fact, if you go through my post history, you will see that I defended it already during leagion.
Same goes for Farming outside of raids.

[SkagenRora]

With the M+ cache offering multiple choices & mythic item level loot, in the long run, M+ will result in a better gearset than it currently does as you're a lot more likely to find something useful in your cache each week.



Well fun is the best reason. Gear is a tool, so honestly, if these changes are enough to put people off doing certain content then they're just not all that into the content in the first place, which is the real discussion to be had here.

Raiding is a way to get the gear. Never really been a source of ”Fun”. Unless we are talking about the less stressful classic, That is good stuff. But BFA raiding is bad.

[Dakara]

Theres normally a handful of hard mythic raid bosses, normally ones later on the raid. And they normally give you 3 dead easy bosses that drop highest level loot.

But you're saying a 15+ isnt hard so shouldnt reward the same ilvl as those first 3 bosses of mythic raid. What a joke.

One tank, one healer, dps need to actually do their jobs well and assist in softening damage because m+ has quite impactful rotating affixes. Some bosses on tyrannical are definitely more engaging/challenging than most mythic raid bosses so save it.

But it does.
At the end of the Week you get a chest (or 3) with Mythic Raid quality items.
Or are you saying +15's should Drop Mythic Raid level loot, which can then be farmed endlessly in the first few weeks of a season, negating almost the entire Raids loot table?

Because that's what BFA did to Heroic Raiding.

[Aggrophobic]

Do 5 (or 4 can't remember) M+7 and you have your 2 heroic quality items to choose from every week. This is something casual (but skilled at heroic raid level) will manage without problem.

What exactly is your problem with this system? Because I think experienced player like you should realize that less item drops are price for removing warforging, so good rewards from spamable M+ must be funneled into weekly chest.

That you get crap loot from doing dungeons and only one item at that.
A random box with something you will probably not want at the end of the week does not fix that.

It take way more effort and time to get the loot from M+ already and it'll not even be worth the effort come Shadowlands.

[Dracullus]

I never complained about Titanforging. In fact, if you go through my post history, you will see that I defended it already during leagion.
Same goes for Farming outside of raids.

Fair enough. But you probably realize they were most common complains in raiding community in post-WoD era.

Now all you can do is wait for public opinion to shift 180 again and Blizzard creating another Legion to "finally solve nothing to do problem".

[Lazel]

M+ should never give higher or even equal loot to heroic , its not about which one is more difficult , almost entirety of the playerbase copy pastes top guilds anyway so I don't think you can talk about what is difficult when it comes to raiding

Its about m+ being spammable and raids being on a weekly lockout, wow's gearing revolves around weekly systems, the only outlier I can think about is pvp where 2.4 + could give equal to mythic gear so pvpers dont have to pve to get their gear

Weekly box giving mythic gear should be more than enough for m+ players to be happy, you get way too much welfare gear for literally no reason whatsoever, getting free 475 item for doing a +15 key (soloable btw) is an absolute joke to the game, not only that, you even get to choose up to 3 items in shadowlands

stop crying

[Delever]

Do you mean that raiders who get chances to loot ilvl 213, ilvl 220 and ilvl 226 gear from multiple sources every week would not quickly outgear someone who decked out in full ilvl 210 gear on day 1 and then gets just a single ilvl 226 piece per week?

You re assuming that the vast majority of PvErs would even get do mythic raiding which is not true.
The vast majority of PvErs however do M+. An average pure raider (by pure I mean no M+) would get 213 ilvl gear from both the heroic raid and the weekly chest.
A pure M+ player (no raid, only mythic plus) would get 210 from M+ and 226 from the weekly chest, in time outgearing the average raider.
If anything the average raider is the one forced to do M+ and not the other way around.
The 1-3% who clears mythic getting 226 faster and with slightly more optimal secondaries than you affects you how exactly? The chances of even encoutering such players incredibly often in your activities and being gatekeeped by them is incredibly slim anyway as they tend to only play with their own guild members and understandably so.

[andrewmacmillan]

I'll tell you what we need. Pet Battle Raids.

[Delever]

Raiding is a way to get the gear. Never really been a source of ”Fun”. Unless we are talking about the less stressful classic, That is good stuff. But BFA raiding is bad.

Maybe for you mate. But your statement is incredibly general. BfA might have sucked but the raiding in retail has almost always been solid. For me the fun comes from the combination of challenging myself in content (only raiding and very high M+ offers that for me), socializing with my friends and being rewarded with good gear. You dont get to make generalizations about what is fun and what is not for all people. Because then I could very well respond with ad hominem and call you a brainlet for enjoying tank and spank classic raiding while I almost fall asleep doing it.

[Qnubi]

You re assuming that the vast majority of PvErs would even get do mythic raiding which is not true.
The vast majority of PvErs however do M+. An average pure raider (by pure I mean no M+) would get 213 ilvl gear from both the heroic raid and the weekly chest.
A pure M+ player (no raid, only mythic plus) would get 210 from M+ and 226 from the weekly chest, in time outgearing the average raider.
If anything the average raider is the one forced to do M+ and not the other way around.
The 1-3% who clears mythic getting 226 faster and with slightly more optimal secondaries than you affects you how exactly? The chances of even encoutering such players incredibly often in your activities and being gatekeeped by them is incredibly slim anyway as they tend to only play with their own guild members and understandably so.

You get the best raid gear from where? Raiding, with the exception of maybe one trinket for certain classes.

I think the main issue is that the best M+ gear is coming from Raiding. A full-time M+ player will need to go mythic raiding to get the best possible performance for his character, and not just for one item (as mentioned above), his entire character will perform better from an activity that is not M+. PvP players have the same problem, the best PvP gear should come from where? Not M+/Raiding, it should come from PvPing. I don't understand why people are opposing the idea that each activity should make you the best at what you doing.

It's so hypocritical from raiders to say: the best gear for raiding should come from raiding and then get mad if M+ players get the same gear to perform at maximum in M+ or PvP...

Nobody is arguing that Raiding can't have 1-2 items that you would need for best performance in M+, but 90% of your characters max performance being locked behind raiding seems bad, and people are rightfully upset. It's simply a logical flaw and the arguments against it are entirely made up. M+, PvP and Raiding are all 3 viable endgame systems. M+ is actually open ended because the game scales endlessly which puts even more pressure on high performing M+ players to go raiding whereas raiding, once you beat the boss there is no reason to get better gear for that Tier.

[kaminaris]

If they increase the key requirement to +20 instead of +14-15 for mythic gear then I think it would be fine if they made the acquisition more comparable with some loot restrictions added to M+. But +14-15 is simply too easy and shouldn’t even provide good gear.

You are throwing arbitrary numbers without having a damn clue whatsoever. +15 in the beginning was as hard as 25 now. It all boils down to scaling.

+10/+15/+20 doesnt mean a single thing.

- - - Updated - - -

I think m+ and raids could coexist perfectly if they dropped raiding down to 10man and left it at that.

Yep. Remember when 25 dropped better loot and more often yet people still vastly preferred 10 mans?

- - - Updated - - -

And, as the best raid teams can defeat mythic raids in remarkably poor gear, obviously raiders don't actually need upgrades from their raids either - they just need to play better. So, we've established that nobody actually needs the best gear, so it can be removed from the game. Done.

One of the rewards in MMORPGs is getting better gear. What's more better gear makes doing the content you like easier, no matter what that content is. While top-end PvP and mythic raiding should offer better gear than M+, which in turn should offer better gear than M0 and BGs, etc., and so on down the line, even LFR and people who just do WQs should have the opportunity to get gear that's better than they need. Firstly, that's the reward for doing the content, and secondly because feeling powerful is also a reward.

On top of this, a lot of specs feel fairly awful in poor gear. Why should people have to play their favourite spec and have it feel horrible just because they don't do content that 'deserves' good enough gear to make the spec play right?

100% truth. Literally everything in this post is correct.

- - - Updated - - -

A mythic 15 is a joke, 100% of the time....

Another one without clue. +15 is a joke NOW that you are ridiculously overpowered. With some scaling blizzard can make +5 impossible to do by decked out players. Was +15 easy at the very start of 8.3? Nope.