I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Tumile]

"why don't raiders see that": because they are idiots
"and apparently the dev team": because the game director is a raider. see above

considering how much they fuck raiders in the bum, I doubt that is the case. While i agree raiding is viewed as the holy grail of content, it is obvious the devs themselves do not infact raid.

Lets look at all the dumb none raid shit raiders were doing in order to raid efficiently over the last few years and just agree that grinding islands for 2000 hours wasnt very pog. Master looter gone, well better spend close to 1000 hours grinding, crafting and buying gear on our 10 characters so we can trade loot cuz personal loot was designed by the devil himself and was made for the dad gamers who prefer doing pet battles, not the raiders.

now i personally loved this one, but lets not forget spending thousands of hours in Maw of Souls in legion farming AP. anyone who wasnt the correct classes or who just wanted to raid most certainly did not enjoy that one either.

Benthic gear? I'm sure raiders loved that

Do I love raiding? hell yeah, do I like raiding with a team of 27 including the bench? not really, give me back 10 man raiding so i dont have to spend 300 wipes on the last boss waiting for the mouth dribblers to catch up to the rest of us. let me sit there and talk shit with my friends while raiding, instead of being in a TS server with 20 people, it is simply too many for everyone to be speaking and having a great time.

I also love M+, and Arena. sadly being a raider i cant do any of those in Shadow lands, because Covenants is a hellspawn and if i ever find the people responsible for that retarded decision, I will devote my life to sign them up to as many scam newsletter sites as i can and inform their relatives of the fact that they are indeed, reptilians who are here to watch the world burn.

I also love rep grinds, especially when the incompetent fucks give us 50% increased rep from world quests week 2 of BFA! poggers bois! oh wait, they miss spelled reputation, which broke the entire fucking thing cuz using spell ID's in your coding is too fucking hard. "Reptuation" really? illeterate fucks.

on that note, anyone remember when they couldn't spell Uldir on the vantus rune so it didn't work for the first week of mythic? "Uldri" nice.

such nice treatment for the raiders eh?

now if I was a none raider the covenants wouldnt bother me one bit, I would go with my best covenant for M+ during push weeks, and my best one for PVP when it is not. sadly the CD is a weekly reset quest, and since most raiders more than once a week, it simply isn't possible, unlucky.

[Orby]

I think Raiding should be the real end game. Like it used to be.

Dungeons > Mythic+ > Raiding >

That's how it should be. With PVP floating around the middle.

If there is no structure the game falls apart. You cannot just give everyone good gear. By doing that the whole game becomes meaningless in terms of loot distribution. You need structure. If I can just get my best gear from world quests or Mythics+ then whats the point of raiding. No one ever needs to raid, maybe once, but never again after that.

WoW's loot distribution fell apart after MoP for me. Everything just felt like a hot pot of mush.

I am glad for the change. Blizzard finally accepting that the game needs structure.

[Delever]

You get the best raid gear from where? Raiding, with the exception of maybe one trinket for certain classes.

I think the main issue is that the best M+ gear is coming from Raiding. A full-time M+ player will need to go mythic raiding to get the best possible performance for his character, and not just for one item (as mentioned above), his entire character will perform better from an activity that is not M+. PvP players have the same problem, the best PvP gear should come from where? Not M+/Raiding, it should come from PvPing. I don't understand why people are opposing the idea that each activity should make you the best at what you doing.

It's so hypocritical from raiders to say: the best gear for raiding should come from raiding and then get mad if M+ players get the same gear to perform at maximum in M+ or PvP...

Nobody is arguing that Raiding can't have 1-2 items that you would need for best performance in M+, but 90% of your characters max performance being locked behind raiding seems bad, and people are rightfully upset. It's simply a logical flaw and the arguments against it are entirely made up. M+, PvP and Raiding are all 3 viable endgame systems. M+ is actually open ended because the game scales endlessly which puts even more pressure on high performing M+ players to go raiding whereas raiding, once you beat the boss there is no reason to get better gear for that Tier.

I m sorry but what? 90% of your performance locked behind raiding??? In shadowlands especially where titanforging is gone and extra gearing systems are gone and gear is just gear with not even set bonuses how is 90% of your performance locked behind raiding? With M+ having a vastly larger lootpool than raiding I m pretty sure you can find pieces in M+ with identical secondary stats to those in the raid. Haste Master gloves from mythic caslte nathria? Pretty sure you can get the same from M+. The only things that will be different are mythic trinkets and weapons with effects. Which both tend to drop from the last boses making the people who will acquire them constitute roughly 1-3% of the total population. I hardly see how that 3% having better trinkets and weapons than you hinders your character progression.

[kaminaris]

Nobody is arguing that Raiding can't have 1-2 items that you would need for best performance in M+, but 90% of your characters max performance being locked behind raiding seems bad, and people are rightfully upset. It's simply a logical flaw and the arguments against it are entirely made up. M+, PvP and Raiding are all 3 viable endgame systems. M+ is actually open ended because the game scales endlessly which puts even more pressure on high performing M+ players to go raiding whereas raiding, once you beat the boss there is no reason to get better gear for that Tier.

Its not 90% but lets say 30%. That is more realistic. It is still a fuckton.
That means if you only do M+ you will be 30% weaker in M+ than dude that does only mythic raids.

And that is only a tip of iceberg since not only you are considerably weaker, you will also gear a lot slower now.

[Tumile]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

it takes considerably more effort to string a roster together to raid. due to its size, you even have to oversize it, since co-ordinating the schedule of 20 people simply isnt that realistic in the long run, meaning you will have to get even more people, which is even more effort, and you now have issues when everyone can indeed be there.

Even if the content of raiding is great, it would still most likely die if the best loot wasn't coming from raiding.

So yeah, it kinda does have to have the best rewards, but Heroic raiding can suck it, it's literally Normal raids renamed to make people feel better about themselves, heroic raiding is a joke and is about the same difficulty as World quests, and should therefore give similar rewards.

Either remove it or bump up the difficulty, cuz the gap between heroic raiding and Mythic is astronomical right now, it's not even funny, and it wasn't always like that.

[Delever]

Its not 90% but lets say 30%. That is more realistic. It is still a fuckton.
That means if you only do M+ you will be 30% weaker in M+ than dude that does only mythic raids.

And that is only a tip of iceberg since not only you are considerably weaker, you will also gear a lot slower now.

How is it a lot slower?????? You guys are overreacting so fucking much about 3 ilvls of difference. Which is largely offset by the fact that the weekly chest gives you more options now. The more options literally makes it so much less likely that you ll get a duplicate. If anything you should be getting geared faster.

[kaminaris]

I m sorry but what? 90% of your performance locked behind raiding??? In shadowlands especially where titanforging is gone and extra gearing systems are gone and gear is just gear with not even set bonuses how is 90% of your performance locked behind raiding? With M+ having a vastly larger lootpool than raiding I m pretty sure you can find pieces in M+ with identical secondary stats to those in the raid. Haste Master gloves from mythic caslte nathria? Pretty sure you can get the same from M+. The only things that will be different are mythic trinkets and weapons with effects. Which both tend to drop from the last boses making the people who will acquire them constitute roughly 1-3% of the total population. I hardly see how that 3% having better trinkets and weapons than you hinders your character progression.

Your math is incorrect. Having vastly larger loot pool is disadvantage. That means you will less likely to get what you want and there is tons of crap you don't.
Trinkets suffers from this a lot as 90% of trinkets are garbo while only 50% raid trinkets are garbo.

And by "getting what you want" I mean getting a piece that can actually catch up to 220 random raid loot.
To catch up for 16 ilvls you need a piece that has either:
2 bis stats
1 bis stat and 3rd stat
2nd bis stat and 3rd stat (depends on spec scaling)

anything else is going to be garbage. While you won't ever catch up to more specific raid 220 loot (so 2x bis or 1xBis + 3rd stat).

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How is it a lot slower?????? You guys are overreacting so fucking much about 3 ilvls of difference. Which is largely offset by the fact that the weekly chest gives you more options now. The more options literally makes it so much less likely that you ll get a duplicate. If anything you should be getting geared faster.

It is 16 ivls difference to max and 9 ilvl difference vs what we have now.
Weekly chest wont do shit because of 2 things, large loot pool and having worse items on average.

[Delever]

it takes considerably more effort to string a roster together to raid. due to its size, you even have to oversize it, since co-ordinating the schedule of 20 people simply isnt that realistic in the long run, meaning you will have to get even more people, which is even more effort, and you now have issues when everyone can indeed be there.

Even if the content of raiding is great, it would still most likely die if the best loot wasn't coming from raiding.

So yeah, it kinda does have to have the best rewards, but Heroic raiding can suck it, it's literally Normal raids renamed to make people feel better about themselves, heroic raiding is a joke and is about the same difficulty as World quests, and should therefore give similar rewards.

Either remove it or bump up the difficulty, cuz the gap between heroic raiding and Mythic is astronomical right now, it's not even funny, and it wasn't always like that.

Massive overraction. Heroic raiding is easy but not THAT easy. If you get into a heroic raid during the first week of the expac/new patch its not a 100% cakewalk.
While it isnt hard for skilled raider I think it still poses an average challenge for the average player and people will not insta clear it.

[ZazuuPriest]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

sorry if you dont wait to mythic raid you dont deserve mythic raid loot. no one is forcing you to raid

[Delever]

Your math is incorrect. Having vastly larger loot pool is disadvantage. That means you will less likely to get what you want and there is tons of crap you don't.
Trinkets suffers from this a lot as 90% of trinkets are garbo while only 50% raid trinkets are garbo.

And by "getting what you want" I mean getting a piece that can actually catch up to 220 random raid loot.
To catch up for 16 ilvls you need a piece that has either:
2 bis stats
1 bis stat and 3rd stat
2nd bis stat and 3rd stat (depends on spec scaling)

anything else is going to be garbage. While you won't ever catch up to more specific raid 220 loot (so 2x bis or 1xBis + 3rd stat).

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It is 16 ivls difference to max and 9 ilvl difference vs what we have now.
Weekly chest wont do shit because of 2 things, large loot pool and having worse items on average.

16 ilvls difference to max only if you re counting end of dungeon reward which is spammable. The chest still gives you mythic raid ilvl gear. It is legit the same as now except heroic raiding is not absolutely useless. Although on the grand scheme of things, a heroic raider who only raids heroic will never even see 226 ilvl gear.

[kaminaris]

16 ilvls difference to max only if you re counting end of dungeon reward which is spammable. The chest still gives you mythic raid ilvl gear. It is legit the same as now except heroic raiding is not absolutely useless. Although on the grand scheme of things, a heroic raider who only raids heroic will never even see 226 ilvl gear.

I am counting weekly chest vs JUST having items drop from bosses (plus coins plus having ability to trade with people).

it isn't the same as heroic now rewards LESS ilvl then end of dungeon drop.
And lets be honest, heroic raiders will totally do M+ as their options for weekly vault will suck.

Also read this post: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52652309

[ZazuuPriest]

Massive overraction. Heroic raiding is easy but not THAT easy. If you get into a heroic raid during the first week of the expac/new patch its not a 100% cakewalk.
While it isnt hard for skilled raider I think it still poses an average challenge for the average player and people will not insta clear it.

i agree the gap between heroic raiding and mythic raiding might as well be the pacific ocean. Problem is that they have to tune mythic so much higher or no lifers like Method and Limit will kill it in 3 hours the first day. To fix the problem theyd almost have to make another difficulty and thats the last thing this game needs. Maybe they should retune normal to be the level of current heroic and make heroic harder. bascially the only way

[Jakesuly]

A mythic 15 is a joke, 100% of the time, no question. People are doing 28's. Do you know how much harder 28's are over a 15?
Each key level is 10% harder than the previous key level. A 15 is 245% more health and damage than a base mythic. A 28 is 1,191% more health and damage than a base mythic. Nearly 5 times as much damage and health as a 15. Try scaling that to raids, what boss would even be possible if you increased it's health by 5x and it's damage by 5x. NONE OF THEM. Don't even bother comparing difficulty.

If you want to argue that you should get better loot from m+, argue that 20's should drop better than heroic loot, then I might agree.

People are doing +28s right now because it is season 4 of the expansion with crazy ilvls and corruptions. A +15 in season 1 is similar in difficulty to a +21/22 in season 4 (approx 6-7 levels below what the top guys in the world are doing). Best timed run in season 1 of BFA was +22.

[PenguinChan]

Still don't understand the point of having staggering ilvls. Just make it so people who aren't raiding Mythic or very high level M+ take longer to get to max ilvl. It still provides the same incentive that you'd want out of hard content, and it lets you still get rewarded well before anyone else. It's not like Blizzard has another more important issue before this: BiS gear being a thing again, and that means people will weekly / daily log way more now.

[Delever]

I am counting weekly chest vs JUST having items drop from bosses (plus coins plus having ability to trade with people).

it isn't the same as heroic now rewards LESS ilvl then end of dungeon drop.
And lets be honest, heroic raiders will totally do M+ as their options for weekly vault will suck.

Also read this post: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52652309

Your math takes into account a raider as one entity disregarding the average difficulty at which MOST raiders play the game at (aka heroic). Your math is only true for Mythic raiding (an activity that only 1-3% of the population actively completes) vs M+15. The reality of the situation is that your math still applies except the heroic raider will never get to see a 226 ilvl upgrade. He gets more gear pieces but they are lower ilvl and unless he does M+ 15 he will never get mythic ilvl.
So if you are ok with the heroic raider being forced to do M+ as you state by the phrase "lets be honest, heroic raiders will totally do M+" then I will also go ahead and say "lets be honest, M+ players will totally do heroic raiding to be able to get more gear in the first few weeks".
And I see no problem with that.
-The highest level of PvE content rewards the best ilvl due to its difficulty plus structure and organization requirement.
-Lower forms of raiding are now worth doing for those who want to stay at that.
-Everyone can reach max ilvl. It just will be slower due to less effort and difficulty like it is now.
-More gear options from weekly chest to incentivize doing more of that content and reduce rng
-People participating in multiple forms of content have a larger pool of items to choose from and are more rewarded.

Thats how MMOs always worked and thats how this game always worked as well. If anything we have reached a point where it has never been easier for non raiders to reach close to optimal gearing.

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Still don't understand the point of having staggering ilvls. Just make it so people who aren't raiding Mythic or very high level M+ take longer to get to max ilvl. It still provides the same incentive that you'd want out of hard content, and it lets you still get rewarded well before anyone else. It's not like Blizzard has another more important issue before this: BiS gear being a thing again, and that means people will weekly / daily log way more now.

But this is exactly how it works now and will work in SL.

[PenguinChan]

But this is exactly how it works now and will work in SL.

So what's the point of all this bitching? I assumed with what people were posting, Mythic now has exclusive ilvls and M+ and everything else gets reduced in their stats to favor it.

[Eapoe]

The solution is pretty obvious. Blizzard picks a m+ level, say +28 for example, as the setting for getting mythic ilvl rewards. Make +19 and higher heroic raid level. Have +10 and up be normal raid ilvl. Anything lower is LFR ilvl. You will still a separation between raids and m+ for alternate gearing paths, and people can still choose to do one or the other.
Now, obviously these numbers are made up just going off of what people are clearing now and ultimately Blizzard would decide where the dungeon levels should separate. It just seems like this should be something to consider as, even in Legion, getting mythic ilvl quality loot was very easy thru m+.

[Delever]

i agree the gap between heroic raiding and mythic raiding might as well be the pacific ocean. Problem is that they have to tune mythic so much higher or no lifers like Method and Limit will kill it in 3 hours the first day. To fix the problem theyd almost have to make another difficulty and thats the last thing this game needs. Maybe they should retune normal to be the level of current heroic and make heroic harder. bascially the only way

If it were up to me honestly I d do it like FFXIV and have everyone shut the fuck up about the difficulties. Thats one thing I liked from that game.
2 raid difficulties, 1 queable, 1 hard. People can get max ilvl from capping tomestones but it takes longer and your gear is not optimized in terms of secondary stats.
People raiding get there faster and with more optimized stats.
Honestly shadowlands is closed to this since you have even more options that FFXIV to reach max ilvl. 4 raiding difficulties are really not needed though. I really wish they brought 10 man raiding back.

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So what's the point of all this bitching? I assumed with what people were posting, Mythic now has exclusive ilvls and M+ and everything else gets reduced in their stats to favor it.

People are bitching because the end of dungeon loot from M+ is now 3 ilvls lower than heroic raiding and instead of 3 items per run theres only 1 now. The weekly chest still gives mythic lvl gear and now you have more choices the more you do.
What blizzard is trying to do is basically reduce the quantity of gear that drops but make gear more targeted so you get pieces you want when you actually get gear. This is done due to the removal of titanforging and random affixes on gear. Gear is now just gear and we re back to bis lists so the best way for them to make you play and have exciting gear drops is to increase their quality (aka fixed stats so you re excited to see a specific item drop) but reduce the current showering of gear where you dont even know the name of the gear piece you re getting.
I think its an incredibly positive change for everyone but people seem to be getting their panties in a notch.

Best example I can give is:
-BfA: You spam a +15. You finish the dungeon. You get a heroic lvl belt. Yaay. You keep running the dungeon in hopes he belt titanforges. 10 runs later you get no titanforges but you keep seeing the belt drop 10 times. The belt drop does not become exciting anymore and you just keep running it hoping it ll titanforge at an incredibly low chance.
-SL: You spam a +15. You finish the dungeon. You dont get a drop. Damn But you really want those bracers. You keep spamming and after 10 runs of no loot the bracers finally drop. Your bracers are now done.

You played roughly the same amout of time except on 1 situation you kept getting showered with a ton of useless shit while in the second situation you got 1 thing but it was the thing you wanted and will stay useful for a while.

Keep in mind this is an example and cannot be applied exactly like this because each dungeon has a larger loot table and its not easy to target a specific item. But gear drops should still be more exciting across the board either way.

[PenguinChan]

I think its an incredibly positive change for everyone but people seem to be getting their panties in a notch.

I also agree that having more meaningful drops is nice, but I also disagree with it ending there. I don't think people are going to enjoy having BiS gear and logging daily / weekly again like they did many expansions ago - or just playing alts since their main is maxed out with little to do. I may be wrong on that.

[Delever]

I also agree that having more meaningful drops is nice, but I also disagree with it ending there. I don't think people are going to enjoy having BiS gear and logging daily / weekly again like they did many expansions ago - or just playing alts since their main is maxed out with little to do. I may be wrong on that.

Ι mean it depends on how long it takes to get there. I ve been raiding since TBC and I can count the amount of times I actually managed to reach BiS on my fingertips. The problem before was that there was not a lot of things to do outside of raiding even fore fun or cosmetic progressions. This seems to have been solved even in BfA. BfA has other problems but shortage of content is not one of them.
Of course people who only care about progress will resort to raid logging. That will never stop. Even now half my guild has been raid logging for a very long time even though they dont all have full titanforging or BiS corruptions because they just cannot be bothered. But those of us who still enjoy pushing keys, pvping and grinding honor ranks, doing visions and maxing reps and in general completionist content are still actively logging in. And shadowlands does not seem to have a shortage of fun things to do outside of raiding that have their own progression that is not power related.
For example even though torghast is split in 18 floor parts I am really looking forward to pushing the shit out of it to see how high I can get. I really want to do the entire covenant campaign and fully unlock everything in the patch of ascension. And the list goes on. Those do not offer player power but have their own nice progression systems. Unlike WoD where after raid and completing challenge modes I was like.... ok I got my apexis daily and thats it.
And I a incentivized to even play 4 characters to see all stories so I get to have that on different characters as well.