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  1. #241
    Actually this feels good. Log on, do raid, log off, go play other games. Being forced to grind endlessly feels bad and leads to burnout and with this you get to take breaks during week to play better, more fun games.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    except they do. In this very thread.

    Let me quote you one.

    Like this one for example
    But that doesn't say that? His post was about the game being balanced around mythic.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  3. #243
    I am Murloc! crakerjack's Avatar
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    Good, more people will raid and if they hate raiding, they probably weren't raiding to begin with. Love me some dungeons and raids.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    and mythic raiding currently DOES reward best gear...
    but after this change even HC raiding, which is middle tier, will reward better gear than any m+ keys even the "top" keys... and that is just stupid...
    So basically like all of Legion when end of dungeon gear capped at 5 item levels below heroic raids?

    Or only 3 item level difference from BfA seasons 1-3 where end of dungeon gear capped at equal to heroic?

    And leave out how only in 8.3, in the 8th raid tier of mythic+ existence, the weekly chest finally was equal to the mythic raid and not 5 item levels under it?

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    But that doesn't say that? His post was about the game being balanced around mythic.
    sure if you ignore "Because that's the place where it matters the most. Who cares if you kill mobs on the WQuests 0,5-2 seconds faster than other classes? Who cares if you one-shot people at 1400 rating that have no idea how to counter your combo? Who cares if you finish +3 with "3 drops"?

    No one."

    No one cares about ilvl for world quests is what hes implying and a lot of people that want to dictate how the game is played because they need to feel shiny and new with their mythic gear think this way. Never mind if it leads to bad decisions for the entire playerbase like the reduction in m+ loot because they whined about being forced to grind it. I mean come on. That is an actual example of no one forcing you do that but your self.

    Well i care about doing world quests over and over quicker and im sure a lot of other people do so yeah
    Comes a time when we all gotta die...even kings.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    So basically like all of Legion when end of dungeon gear capped at 5 item levels below heroic raids?

    Or only 3 item level difference from BfA seasons 1-3 where end of dungeon gear capped at equal to heroic?

    And leave out how only in 8.3, in the 8th raid tier of mythic+ existence, the weekly chest finally was equal to the mythic raid and not 5 item levels under it?
    arent you forgeting titanforging?

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuciek View Post
    But that was exactly my point. You just proved my point. That guy said that Mythic raiding is the hardest part of the game because it requires the biggest group. And I did that comparison just to show that there might be two paths, two different contents (sports) that you can't even compare because they require different skill set. They are two different things and you can't say one is harder than the order just like that.

    Just like you can't say that Mythic raiding is harder than PvP or M+, because they are different type of content, and in my opinion they should reward equal rewards (at comparable levels of difficulty, based on percentage of players being able to complete it).
    Not really;
    M+ and mythic raids are far more alike than your alegory.
    If anything they should be compared to Futsal vs Football (or what americans understand as Soccer).
    The only real difference here being the scale and field played on.

    Much like the above example raiding and m+ require pretty much the same skillset, except that:
    - one is rather stale, limited to same set of dungeons for an entire expansion, with the only difference being a set of trash packs that change every major patch.
    - the other one requires a lot more coordination and management and introduces a whole new field to play on with every major patch.

  8. #248
    This is exactly how it should have always been rather than trying to force M+ to be a place for progression equal to raiding, when the skill required for the gear relative to raiding was much lower.

    If all you do is M+, then it shouldn't matter what ilvl your gear is because doing that and the other avenues for progress OUTSIDE of raiding will still be rewarding you with progress. If you don't raid, and the difficulty in what you are doing doesn't require your rewards to raid tier, then it's completely unjustified to have M+ be as rewarding as it is, especially when it doesn't have ANY lockout for the incredible gear it currently gives and effort involved.

    The only negative is obviously that if you raid then your avenues for progression are much lower, however that doesn't change the fact that you could simply play an alt or still push high keys, though they won't really be much of a reward relative to if you do raiding. As far as I'm concerned M+ should never have given Heroic raid gear and the weekly chest gave far too strong loot relative to only having to do a 10 dungeon not even in time. By putting M+ and Raiding into two much more distanced progression paths, it solves a problem for the two differing communities involved in each of them.
    Last edited by La; 2020-09-18 at 06:09 AM.
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    Yeah not every M+ difficulty gives 210 though, that's only 15+, the levels prior to that are on par with Normal loot or less AND once per run. I get their strategy, M+ dropped too much at once and that is fine (Limiting it to one per dungeon) but to go ahead and make the ilvl worse than it was in BFA and Legion? That's bs.

    M+ is clearly a popular piece of content, why go to this length to make it utter shit for those that enjoy it?
    Because brain dead morons who can't think for themselves or have the backbone to tell their pathetic raid leader no act as if m+ is forced on them by blizzard putting a gun to their head if it is anywhere near decent to gear with.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Krimzin View Post
    I guess I just don't get the solo mentality. You are playing a Multi Player Game but don't really want to run with people, except when you absolutely have to. I mean I understand part of it because there are times I just wanna do my own thing, but the core part of the game is built around grouping. Im guessing you just haven't had good luck with guilds in general. Ive been lucky and found my way in to a boatload of good guilds over the past 15 yrs. Still friends with a lot of them. I cant imagine playing WoW without a solid group of friends, it would be boring as fuck.
    I always felt the core part of the game was having a large open world with tons of active players and character progression (i.e. an RPG), at least it used to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Yeah, that's not in SL, sorry

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    What has that to do with anything in this thread?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Sure, just invest like 200 euro for fun, lets go
    Well, that's unfortunate

  11. #251
    People were railing against the endless progression that Artifact Power and Azerite Power brought. Some were even fear mongering that Anima Power is the new AP.
    Now that we know that it has nothing to do with player power, all of the sudden people realize that they can do stuff... but don't have to? And that's bad?
    No matter how they do it, people will complain.

    Concerning M+
    What is really changing here? M+ endgame is still waiting for the weekly chest. Which is still on par with Mythic raids. And that thing has massively improved from the current iteration.
    Normal loot being a tiny bit below heroic raids means jack shit at the end of the day. It's going to get replaced eventually.

    At least now it's worthwhile to hop into a raid with friends as a side thing. Due to M+ being farmable, heroic raids were worthless in BfA.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmagoslav View Post
    Not really;
    M+ and mythic raids are far more alike than your alegory.
    If anything they should be compared to Futsal vs Football (or what americans understand as Soccer).
    The only real difference here being the scale and field played on.

    Much like the above example raiding and m+ require pretty much the same skillset, except that:
    - one is rather stale, limited to same set of dungeons for an entire expansion, with the only difference being a set of trash packs that change every major patch.
    - the other one requires a lot more coordination and management and introduces a whole new field to play on with every major patch.
    While you are correct to a degree you want to present it like M+ is worse or easier. Yet you totally disregard affixes to prove your point which is not fair.
    Of course raids change every patch, and dungeons stay relatively the same, but at the same time bosses don't change at all in a given raid. You can try it one week, than another, then another until everyone in your raid will learn and you will kill the boss and than farm him because he's the same every week. Raids change each patch but that's several months of exactly the same tactics. Also I don't agree that each raid is a totally new playing field because for most bosses (not every) the mechanics aren't anything new. There's a set of mechanics that repeat in different combinations with some changes and additions and you adapt tactic (once per patch) to deal with that combination of mechanics.

    In M+ the dungeons are the same but affixes rotate weekly AND seasonal affix changes every patch. If you fail +20 Waycrest Manor one week, you won't be able to just go and try again with the same setup and tactic another week or week after. Dungeons change every week, the paths are different, sometimes trash packs are different or have different skills that change easy trash to hardcore. Some weeks you have deal with hard trash and some weeks the bosses are the hardest part. The meta changes EVERY WEEK, and players have to adapt. There's also one more things - if you fail a run, you can't just repeat it, because you need a key. You either have to find someone who has the key (so you have to change your group) or you have to farm dungeons until you get that key again, so comparing to a raid, you can't just repeat where you have failed. It's not 5 minutes run to get back to boss and repeat. Because of rotating affixes the difficulty of each dungeon changes every week, so the fact that you have completed +20 KR one week won't mean that you will complete +20 KR next week with the same setup and path because it might be harder (or easier).

    I'll even take your comparison of futsal and football, yes they are more alike but you can't say which one is harder anyway. Actually futsal players tend to have better technique with the ball than football players but lack in other skills which just proves that even in the same sport category they require different skill set. Even if it would seem like they are doing the same thing (football or PvE), the emphasis is on different things, so different skills are more important.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Soluna View Post


    You can just pug heroic raids.
    I mean, you are not wrong about that. You could also staple your foot to the ground with a nail gun or eat a dozen raw onions and drink them down with a nice little mug full of kerosene while listening to a 24/7 loop of "The girl from Ipanema".
    Thats all things you could theoretically do and all of them will leave you in a better state of health than pugging heroic raids as your main form of content.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    Well i care about doing world quests over and over quicker and im sure a lot of other people do so yeah
    I get your point. But I won't accept it. Because balancing at lower skill content, would be a disaster for people who treat this game more seriously and would cause more severe outcome. People expect Blizzard to be fair for everyone, it's impossible to balance the game at every possible level.

    And yes... it doesn't matter if you do WQuests quicker than other classes, why? Because you don't need that, it's not a race.
    It's like saying that every possible car should be as fast. They shouldn't! You drive what you worked for. The normal daily driving isn't a race(just as everything in WoW in lower skill content), while F1 is a race and there are hard regulations for the cars(just like mythic raiding, >2400 Arena and >M+15).

    So... If you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    care about doing world quests over and over quicker
    Then I welcome you in the mythic raid team.

    It's like saying "I pay the same price for the gym as the people who train more than me! I should be jacked just as they are!" while not doing proper work out.
    Last edited by Eazy; 2020-09-18 at 09:02 AM.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    I wouldn't say that HC raid is giving you more loot. The drop chances will be reduced in SL and we all know that you can spam M+ dungeon. And the whole dungeons drop list is higher than the raid one.
    More items/hr. It used to be more items/hr anyways, now it's three times more.
    I mean 10 bosses will drop 40 items for a raid. which will be 2 items per person per 3 hours. 0.66item/h for a person
    M+ will be 1 item per 30 mins (2 per hour ignoring logistics and shit) per 5 people. 0.4 item per person per hour and it will be sub hc quality too. I mean spamming would still be a problem but a ilvl decay like in Visions masks would be better rather than straight up shit loot and shit item/h with potential best trinkets being locked in raids.

  16. #256
    I raid because of the challenge. It's fun to do it as a group of 20. I don't do it because of gear. That's a bonus.

    It makes me sad to see that the ilvl of m+ is not caped at the highest ilvl available. Again I will gain nothing from m+. My only gear will come from mythic raiding (and weekly). I'm not good enough to get high ilvl from pvp, or rather, I don't have the time to practice enough (maybe I suck anyway but who knows).

    I wish I could do m+ and get the best possible gear, at least be lucky. Titanforging made it possible. 90% of the time you got nothing but now and then you actually got an upgrade. There's simply no way that will happen when raids open. Like, why? What do you gain from limiting ilvl? Why not have m+20 drop mythic raid quality? Why stop at 15 (or whatever the cap is in SL)?

    I was pumped about this expansion but the closer we come to playing it, the more disappointed I become. Let's hope it'll feel fine when actually playing it, I guess.
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  17. #257
    How is high end mythic raid content only relevant? So you are going to skip everything and jump into mythic raid becouse it offers best stuff? No you wont you will first get gear from mythic+, norma and heroic raids which means they are also relevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    I raid because of the challenge. It's fun to do it as a group of 20. I don't do it because of gear. That's a bonus.

    It makes me sad to see that the ilvl of m+ is not caped at the highest ilvl available. Again I will gain nothing from m+. My only gear will come from mythic raiding (and weekly). I'm not good enough to get high ilvl from pvp, or rather, I don't have the time to practice enough (maybe I suck anyway but who knows).

    I wish I could do m+ and get the best possible gear, at least be lucky. Titanforging made it possible. 90% of the time you got nothing but now and then you actually got an upgrade. There's simply no way that will happen when raids open. Like, why? What do you gain from limiting ilvl? Why not have m+20 drop mythic raid quality? Why stop at 15 (or whatever the cap is in SL)?

    I was pumped about this expansion but the closer we come to playing it, the more disappointed I become. Let's hope it'll feel fine when actually playing it, I guess.
    People like you are minority. Despite people like doing mythic raid if you remove gear desire to that content would drop dramaticaly. Its whole packcage what makes people do mythic raiding and more you take away from that packcage more people will quit.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I mean, you are not wrong about that. You could also staple your foot to the ground with a nail gun or eat a dozen raw onions and drink them down with a nice little mug full of kerosene while listening to a 24/7 loop of "The girl from Ipanema".
    Thats all things you could theoretically do and all of them will leave you in a better state of health than pugging heroic raids as your main form of content.
    It depends, at start of 8.3 I was playing casual and I could easily pug everything heroic wise by just having high requirements. The requirements when a new tier comes out of course cannot be super high, but your requirements evolve as players gear/achieve more stuff, and it's generally easy to pug then if you are somewhat competent.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by GringoD View Post
    People were railing against the endless progression that Artifact Power and Azerite Power brought. Some were even fear mongering that Anima Power is the new AP.
    Now that we know that it has nothing to do with player power, all of the sudden people realize that they can do stuff... but don't have to? And that's bad?
    No matter how they do it, people will complain.

    Concerning M+
    What is really changing here? M+ endgame is still waiting for the weekly chest. Which is still on par with Mythic raids. And that thing has massively improved from the current iteration.
    Normal loot being a tiny bit below heroic raids means jack shit at the end of the day. It's going to get replaced eventually.

    At least now it's worthwhile to hop into a raid with friends as a side thing. Due to M+ being farmable, heroic raids were worthless in BfA.
    It's on par with mythics if you can clear a +15, which very few people will be doing in the first few weeks. Once you get to the level where you can comfortably do so, it will then take four months to get fully geared, and that is assuming that not a single one of your options is a duplicate. In the meantime, whilst you're doing all this, your chances of actually getting loot at the end of a M+ have been obliterated.

    You're wrong in that M+ is "constantly waiting for the chest" - yes, now, at the end of the expac it is, but prior to that, M+ is a good source of gear for those who can't, or don't want to, raid. I am somewhere in the middle - I want to raid, I am perfectly capable of doing so, but can't be on at the same time every week. I would be perfectly happy with a slightly reduced ilvl if the drop rates remained the same. Instead, whilst my friends and guildies are getting regular heroic gear week after week, I will be stuck with the highest keys I can manage in the first few weeks / months (and since there are no other decent sources of gear outside of raids in SL, it could well be months), working to get to a level where I can clear +15 reliably and regularly. Once I reach that point, I then have a four month treadmill, all the while praying for no duplicates. In the meantime, my friends have been fully heroic geared for weeks and have unsubbed til the next patch.

    Blizzard needs to learn how to balance things better. If they're going to go ahead with these changes, then the scaling of keys up to 15 needs to be drastically reduced so that non-raiders can reach +15 levels sooner. Failing that, reinstate the frequency of drops and keep the reduced ilvls. There are options available which don't completely screw over those who can't raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    I mean, you are not wrong about that. You could also staple your foot to the ground with a nail gun or eat a dozen raw onions and drink them down with a nice little mug full of kerosene while listening to a 24/7 loop of "The girl from Ipanema".
    Thats all things you could theoretically do and all of them will leave you in a better state of health than pugging heroic raids as your main form of content.
    Finally, someone who gets it. "You can just pug heroic raids" is a very weak counter-argument given the actual odds of doing so, and I am enjoying knowing in my head that some of the posters in this thread will now be having their heads implode with these diametrically opposed arguments.
    Last edited by Mystikal; 2020-09-18 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Clarity

  20. #260
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    It's been sidelined for too long so it's good that try-hards can't even have gear equal to Heroic raiding. Raid or stay a scrub, IO-chasing kiddies.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

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