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  1. #401
    LOL who left this mindset behind? When you say "we", do you mean non raiders? because nobody ever cared what their opinion was, or ever will.. And Raiding was the only good thing in WOD.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by JustaWarlock View Post
    Because in BFA, M+ mostly invalidated raiding.
    That's because Blizzard doesn't understand the difference between shaving and beheading. They claim they overshoot on purpose to make sure people feel the differences and to get them engaged, but they always fail to adjust said overshooting within a reasonable timeframe.

    For some reason they always have to wait for new expansions to make adjustements, but by then they instead decide to redesign systems completely and so begins the cycle of overshooting anew.

  3. #403
    On top of everything else I have listed which I expect to be incredibly cherry picked due to the nature of these forums, to the people that are saying "Three choices are not enough, you will still get fucked over by the weekly chest":
    May I also remind you that you also have the option to now pick a currency if all your rewards suck that will let you work towards a specific item at max ilvl?
    The system has literally never been better.
    Having the spammable dungeon also shower you with loot of heroic ilvl gear every time would outright invalidade any other form of gearing for the average player who does not partake in mythic raiding.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracullus View Post
    Fair enough. But you probably realize they were most common complains in raiding community in post-WoD era.

    Now all you can do is wait for public opinion to shift 180 again and Blizzard creating another Legion to "finally solve nothing to do problem".
    Unfortunately, thats true, but I believe that there has to be some ground in between.
    E.g. NOT making the item level of m14 lower than heroic raiding.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Your math takes into account a raider as one entity disregarding the average difficulty at which MOST raiders play the game at (aka heroic)..
    Heroic is tutorial for average players so it is just disregarded. If pugs clear entire heroic first week then it's not existant play mode.

  6. #406
    The Lightbringer
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    I remember try-hards grinding them endlessly for gear, now I don't need to since it's shittier than even Heroic pieces so has no value. Big improvement for me as a raider.
    Paladin Bash has spoken.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Heroic is tutorial for average players so it is just disregarded. If pugs clear entire heroic first week then it's not existant play mode.
    That does not change the fact that this is where most of the playerbase lies. You make claims based on math and statistics and yet you base your math comparing a statistically significant portion of the playerbase (M+ people) to an outlier (mythic raiders).
    This is not a fair comparison when you re generalizing.
    Outliers in statistics are always treated differently and this is the case here as well.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolished View Post
    A mythic 15 is a joke, 100% of the time, no question. People are doing 28's.
    yeah, now that they are vastly overgeared from mythic raid and have more corruption than romanian government...
    for those people even mythic raid is joke now, but at the begining of tier (and even more so at the begining of expansion) M+15 is not a "joke"...
    everyone who ever cleared one without being carried or overgeared knows that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pawpurr View Post
    Raiding was the only good thing in WOD.
    raiding was pretty much ONLY thin in wod

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Ι mean it depends on how long it takes to get there. I ve been raiding since TBC and I can count the amount of times I actually managed to reach BiS on my fingertips. The problem before was that there was not a lot of things to do outside of raiding even fore fun or cosmetic progressions. This seems to have been solved even in BfA. BfA has other problems but shortage of content is not one of them.
    Of course people who only care about progress will resort to raid logging. That will never stop. Even now half my guild has been raid logging for a very long time even though they dont all have full titanforging or BiS corruptions because they just cannot be bothered. But those of us who still enjoy pushing keys, pvping and grinding honor ranks, doing visions and maxing reps and in general completionist content are still actively logging in. And shadowlands does not seem to have a shortage of fun things to do outside of raiding that have their own progression that is not power related.
    For example even though torghast is split in 18 floor parts I am really looking forward to pushing the shit out of it to see how high I can get. I really want to do the entire covenant campaign and fully unlock everything in the patch of ascension. And the list goes on. Those do not offer player power but have their own nice progression systems. Unlike WoD where after raid and completing challenge modes I was like.... ok I got my apexis daily and thats it.
    And I a incentivized to even play 4 characters to see all stories so I get to have that on different characters as well.
    I'm by no means a raider anymore, so my play-style is now really casual. M+'s are nice but doing them frequently unless I have a group is just bleh. So I'll see how I feel about the expansion - I'm hoping Torghast is enjoyable more than a few runs, as well as covenants and getting better gear. I'm not looking forward to maxing out my gear with little to do with it (Gems, enchants, etc.) but I'll at least be happy it'll be BiS (At whatever level I play at).

  10. #410
    you can still play solely m+,the big issue with BfA and Legion was that if you wanted to raid at a high level,you were forced to spam m+ as its loot was several orders of magnitude better than raid loot (if you account for the amount of loot you get in m+)

    In SL,the top raiders will still have to spam m+,but people who just want to raid at a higher difficulty than heroic will be able to just raid,instead of being forced into content they don't want to do. m+ only players can still play only m+

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    The solution is pretty obvious. Blizzard picks a m+ level, say +28 for example, as the setting for getting mythic ilvl rewards. Make +19 and higher heroic raid level. Have +10 and up be normal raid ilvl. Anything lower is LFR ilvl. You will still a separation between raids and m+ for alternate gearing paths, and people can still choose to do one or the other.
    Now, obviously these numbers are made up just going off of what people are clearing now and ultimately Blizzard would decide where the dungeon levels should separate. It just seems like this should be something to consider as, even in Legion, getting mythic ilvl quality loot was very easy thru m+.
    But that does just create an in every point superior gearing path.

    1. you can wipe your way through and still get loot. The difficulty comes from the timer not the actuall mobs
    2. you can repeat it infinitly. So you can be done with the game on day one.

    but
    1. Everyone who does not have the time to grind 24/7 will be completly left behind
    2. everyone who HAS the time and interest will probably burn out
    3. you won't get any of the good feeling of reseving loot later in the patch
    4. patch is over for many way earlier... results in bitching about how there is nothing to do....

    IMHO they should remove the infinit end of dungeon loot in Mythic+ completly and you get 5 chances (!!!!) to receive loot per week. Nothing more. Then i would be ok with what you said. Still annoyed. As i don't see high dungeons on par with mythic raiding. But that is my problem to deal with.

    But completly fucking up raid loot is not really a solution

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    And, as the best raid teams can defeat mythic raids in remarkably poor gear, obviously raiders don't actually need upgrades from their raids either - they just need to play better. So, we've established that nobody actually needs the best gear, so it can be removed from the game. Done.

    One of the rewards in MMORPGs is getting better gear. What's more better gear makes doing the content you like easier, no matter what that content is. While top-end PvP and mythic raiding should offer better gear than M+, which in turn should offer better gear than M0 and BGs, etc., and so on down the line, even LFR and people who just do WQs should have the opportunity to get gear that's better than they need. Firstly, that's the reward for doing the content, and secondly because feeling powerful is also a reward.

    On top of this, a lot of specs feel fairly awful in poor gear. Why should people have to play their favourite spec and have it feel horrible just because they don't do content that 'deserves' good enough gear to make the spec play right?
    It’s also an important part of an mmorpg that you should do the hardest content to get the best gear. Little Billy shouldn’t be able to do a world quest and get mythic gear even though he wants it. If your class feels bad without good gear then you should get off your ass and do the hard content to get the good gear. That’s an mmorpg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Heroic is tutorial for average players so it is just disregarded. If pugs clear entire heroic first week then it's not existant play mode.
    +15 keys are also tutorial.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    That does not change the fact that this is where most of the playerbase lies. You make claims based on math and statistics and yet you base your math comparing a statistically significant portion of the playerbase (M+ people) to an outlier (mythic raiders).
    This is not a fair comparison when you re generalizing.
    Outliers in statistics are always treated differently and this is the case here as well.
    Dude your high. The majority of the playerbase lies in M+ and a good portion of us prefer it that way. For the group that prefers raiding heroic and likes they don't feel forced to grind M+ that was always an option. No one forced you to do it, but you did because the barrier to entry(5 instead of 20) is easier.

    They are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The perception of Blizzard after finally getting smaller scale content with M+ right now killing it for sperg Heroic raiders who need to be carried by the good players in their raids and are happy about this change.

    Mythic raiders won't give a shit, all this does is prevent the WFR from gear trading in heroic splits at the start. So Blizzard is cool loosing a bunch of subs because the high end Mythic raid addicts will remain, and they'll still be around to carry you're average spergs for gold. I hope your ready to buy a shitload of tokens cause once they lose all us old timers who came back in Legion for small scale challenging content all that's going to be left are the carriers and the carries.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by msmollymillions View Post
    Dude your high. The majority of the playerbase lies in M+ and a good portion of us prefer it that way. For the group that prefers raiding heroic and likes they don't feel forced to grind M+ that was always an option. No one forced you to do it, but you did because the barrier to entry(5 instead of 20) is easier.

    They are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The perception of Blizzard after finally getting smaller scale content with M+ right now killing it for sperg Heroic raiders who need to be carried by the good players in their raids and are happy about this change.

    Mythic raiders won't give a shit, all this does is prevent the WFR from gear trading in heroic splits at the start. So Blizzard is cool loosing a bunch of subs because the high end Mythic raid addicts will remain, and they'll still be around to carry you're average spergs for gold. I hope your ready to buy a shitload of tokens cause once they lose all us old timers who came back in Legion for small scale challenging content all that's going to be left are the carriers and the carries.
    Lemme rephrase because you did not get it. The majority of the player base doing PvE content lies in M+ and Heroic raiding. M+ has a wider audience because of the easier access like you said. Mythic fraiders are an outlier. He is comparing M+ players to mythic raiders saying that M+ will now be dead which is absolutely not true. The only change that happened now is that you cannot spam M+ to make heroic meaningless in a week. M+ players will still outgear heroic raiders through the weekly cache without having to enter a raid. Heroic raiders will never outgear M+ players without entering M+.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    +15 keys are also tutorial.
    Now, that your ridiculously overpowered. So stop trhowing useless numbers that don't matter at all. In the begining people really struggled with 10s not to mention 15s.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It’s also an important part of an mmorpg that you should do the hardest content to get the best gear. Little Billy shouldn’t be able to do a world quest and get mythic gear even though he wants it. If your class feels bad without good gear then you should get off your ass and do the hard content to get the good gear. That’s an mmorpg.
    I'm guessing you didn't read my second paragraph.

    As for your reply to my third - why should some people have to "get off their ass" to have a fun character, and others not?

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Now, that your ridiculously overpowered. So stop trhowing useless numbers that don't matter at all. In the begining people really struggled with 10s not to mention 15s.
    Yes but in the beginning people struggled just as much with heroic bosses. I did +15 keys in the first week of 8.3 with 445 uncorrupted gear and it was still easy. That level of content shouldn’t even give mythic gear. M+ player should feel lucky that they are getting welfare.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by ONCHEhap View Post
    you can still play solely m+,the big issue with BfA and Legion was that if you wanted to raid at a high level,you were forced to spam m+ as its loot was several orders of magnitude better than raid loot (if you account for the amount of loot you get in m+)

    In SL,the top raiders will still have to spam m+,but people who just want to raid at a higher difficulty than heroic will be able to just raid,instead of being forced into content they don't want to do. m+ only players can still play only m+
    People make a big fuss about M+ being 3 ilvls lower, but the truth is, it changes nothing. All it does is prevent loot trading in the raid, where progress raiders funneled all the cloth/leather/mail/plate gear from alts to mains.

    For the average player, this change does nothing. 210 or 213 ilvl doesn't matter. What matters are the secondary stats. If the raid has crit/mastery gloves but your best stat is haste, then you're going to grind M+ until you get your 210 haste gloves. And you're going to grind multiple 14-15 dungeons each week in hopes of increasing the chance of getting those haste gloves from your weekly chest.

    People who throw a tantrum about those three itemlevels either didn't really use their brain and reacted emotionally or they are idiots who only look at itemlevel.

  19. #419
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    As a Mythic Raider with limited time due to family and job I must say, I'm really looking forward to the new system. Only having to do my raid twice a week and maybe a +15 in the first few weeks is absolutely great.

  20. #420
    Why does it matter that the highest ilvl gear comes from raiding, so long as the highest m+ ilvl gear can help you clear at least the highest m+ there are achievements for? Will people who want to be world first m+ teams do mythic raiding? Yes. Why is that a problem?

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