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  1. #101
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    Well there are three main concepts for punishment in a given criminal justice system. Deterrence, Rehabilitation, and prevention of further harm. Each has a role, so using aligning punishments wisely is supposed to be the role of the criminal justice system. All three are ideally aimed at proactive crime prevention, rather then reactive vengeance. In America we are not great at this, it is doubtful there is a perfect solution, but ours seems exceptionally bad.

    Deterrence is the go to motivation for our "Tough on crime" politicians. The problem is they don't seem to understand what it does, and does not do. Deterrence works well for small crimes, and generally those where the criminal rationally weighs out the consequences of their actions. Deterrence can keep people from parking in handicap places, or prevent people from littering, or cheating on their taxes. It tends to be completely useless at dealing with crimes of passion or mental health crisis, because those tend to have no consideration of consequences, so no deterrent is considered. In my opinion, Deterrence is totally useless in capital cases, and should not be considered for punishments more severe then approximately one year in jail (Mostly it should be fines).

    Rehabilitation is not really a "punishment" at all. It is a set of methods to curb anti-social behavior and reintegrate offenders. As such, it doesn't really need "sentences" in the first place. The extent to which a person needs rehabilitation is specific to the person, not the offense. A minor drug possession charge might need a great deal of rehabilitation to deal with addiction and the life issues that led to that addiction, but a prison is a terrible place to provide that rehabilitation.

    Lastly, preventing further harm. This is where capital punishment usually falls. They are typically not the sort of crimes that can be prevented by deterrence, and often the chances of rehabilitation are slim to none. This is not the majority of criminal cases, but it does apply to people like serial sexual predators, certain types of murderer, and so forth. In this case, the realistic options come down to the death penalty or life in prison. If they can't be rehabilitated, then society needs to be protected from them. Which you prefer depends on if you believe the death penalty is more or less humane then locking someone in a room forever. I personally prefer the death penalty, but life in prison has the significant benefit of being reversible if you find out you wrongfully convicted someone. So if you don't trust the criminal justice system much, life is a better call.

    edit: Is anyone else super confused by the picture in the OP? Why is there a smiling stock photo of a telemarketer in this topic?

  2. #102
    I am Murloc! Mister K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    How can any life truly be without redemption, granted it might be beyond all of us as a society, but if that is true then Prison's really can't be for redemption can they?
    Because some do not want to be "saved" / helped. Prisons are a pretty terrible rehabilitation centres that rarely work. The poster is right, they should be castrate and keys thrown away. You are not mentally stable if you intentionally pick up a weapon and murder someone. Simple, as, that. The core problem probably lays elsewhere, but at that point it's too late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post

    edit: Is anyone else super confused by the picture in the OP? Why is there a smiling stock photo of a telemarketer in this topic?
    The OP loves to stir the forums (quite often) with random topics that cause a large reaction from the posters (nothing wrong with this I suppose, but it gives you a general idea). Good for page clicks I suppose.
    -K

  3. #103
    Legendary! Thekri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister K View Post
    The OP loves to stir the forums (quite often) with random topics that cause a large reaction from the posters (nothing wrong with this I suppose, but it gives you a general idea). Good for page clicks I suppose.
    I took it as an editorial about giving all telemarketers life sentences...

  4. #104
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Depends. If I am correct, a Life Sentence is 30 years. I do believe there are some crimes that are absolutely worth 30 years. Genocide for example.

    But I also believe in rehabilitation, so there are likely crimes that would be thrown a life sentence at, that could be appealed based on efforts and results of rehab programs.
    Yeah, I am speaking specifically about life in prison with NO possibility of ever getting out AND, AND as we go forward someone also pointed out if people live say 100s of years then what.

    How much time is enough to simply rot, and even to at what point does it become cruel and unusual maybe even worse than death especially if we are talking almost a century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister K View Post
    Because some do not want to be "saved" / helped. Prisons are a pretty terrible rehabilitation centres that rarely work. The poster is right, they should be castrate and keys thrown away. You are not mentally stable if you intentionally pick up a weapon and murder someone. Simple, as, that. The core problem probably lays elsewhere, but at that point it's too late.

    Ok so say what about people who are suicidal, or people who want to do drugs, should we let them be if they don't want to be hassled. Some people also make the choice on a lot of bad decisions and I AGREE WITH YOU TOTALLY that some DO make that choice.

    But consider that, dig deeper, what would make someone so sure they want to do the very worst in society, to fit that kind of punishment?


    Don't worry that isn't meant to be an easy question, it is meant to say at what point do we simply just give up.
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  5. #105
    Herald of the Titans Tuor's Avatar
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    I am not against life in Prision, but i defend that ONLY for crimes of extreme cruelty, where reahbilitation is not possible.

  6. #106
    When rehab is deemed impossible by various experts, sure. No point is putting dangerous individuals back to society.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  7. #107
    On rehabilitation; I both believe that people should be given the chance to be better, and that I can't know if someone can/can't be rehabilitated. Saying that someone can't be rehabilitated is too much of an absolutist claim for my tastes.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  8. #108
    Even if you think people don't have free will or their own agency, there is still a need to protect the populous from dangerous individuals and so if this means life in prison then so be it. You could argue for more accommodating prisons but when you have innocent people all around the world living in such poor conditions, you should probably fix that first.

  9. #109
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thekri View Post
    I took it as an editorial about giving all telemarketers life sentences...
    I used the photo as setting it isn’t supposed to stir anything. Just setting. When I typed “Life in prison without parole” that’s the first image to come up. Seriously.

    Just thought it was odd something to think about so I added it.
    Milli Vanilli, Bigger than Elvis

  10. #110
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Again, I am not not in disagreement, rehabilitation everything I am talking about is a luxury and does take resources that frankly we might not now or ever arrive at. Don't get me wrong I am not talking about playing God, or being on some kind of power trip to know all of what is better for all.

    I DO BELIEVE IN FREE WILL AND CHOICE.

    But what is behind that choice, salvation is a thing, and yes I know being sorry doesn't mean you don't have to pay for what you have done, at least on some level, but there is also mercy, forgiveness, LOVE! Especially those that need it the most.
    You can forgive someone, but they still can suffer the consequences of their actions. Of course some can be rehabilitated and there is times we need to show some mercy. But in some cases, it is best to just send them to the maker for judgement. Contrary to what many think, some can never be redeemed.
    " If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.." - Abraham Lincoln
    The Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to - prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..” - Samuel Adams

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    You can forgive someone, but they still can suffer the consequences of their actions. Of course some can be rehabilitated and there is times we need to show some mercy. But in some cases, it is best to just send them to the maker for judgement. Contrary to what many think, some can never be redeemed.
    LOL could you be any bigger of a hypocrite this week???


    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post

    ....... And I have not been this strong of a pro life until about 10 years ago.

    .
    - - - Updated - - -

    Life in prison is useful but once you get to a certain age the risk to society becomes so low that is it really worth it to keep them locked up for 40-50-70k a year?

    At some point they could be sent to something a little less expensive then max security prison.

    Also based on our past performance and corruption how anyone can support the death penalty for almost all cases is baffling.


    On top of all that the sentence and parole system is so fucked up and biased that you can have such vast differences just based on whom you are, whom the victims were and how much money you have.

    Just look at John Lennon's killer Mark David Chapman has been denied parole just because he killed a very famous person. Most other criminals convicted of this type of crime would have been released by now on parole.

    On top of that you have the basic bias of sentencing against men vs women.

    A broken system needs to be fixed.
    Last edited by Zan15; 2020-09-18 at 07:12 PM.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  12. #112
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Saying that someone can't be rehabilitated is too much of an absolutist claim for my tastes.
    Yeah and unless you believe people have an immutable soul then you have to admit that everything just comes down to information in a person's head. Saying a person's ideas/values can't be changed would have to rely on either the supernatural or something like genetic determinism, which is wrong imo.

  13. #113
    I'm not against life in prison. Rapists and Murders should never be amongst the general population. Although an 80 year old probably doesn't need to be in maximum security prison either, unless they are one of those super escape artist types I guess, so can be somewhat situational. I am 100% against the death penalty, for multiple reasons, justice system is so devastatingly far from perfect and many people have died when they shouldn't have because they were innocent.

    Another reason to be against it is just the overwhelming cost, The death penalty is far more expensive than a system utilizing life-without-parole sentences as an alternative punishment. Like it's not even close, like 15x more expensive. Someone with life in prison who's been wrongly convicted can get it overturned and set free, it doesn't happen often, usually decades too late, but wouldn't be the case if they were put to death.

  14. #114
    i only support the life sentence for jaywalking and youtubers

  15. #115
    I'd favor the death penalty over life in prison for the irredeemable and dangerous under some conditions, mostly economical ones. Plus, life in prison w/o parole doesn't mean the convict can't escape - it's unlike but it has happened. And those that are irredeemable but no longer dangerous, such as disabled, elderly convicts, should be given the choice to keep spending life in prison or be granted euthanasia. A more humane way to opt out than to hang themselves with bed sheets, for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  16. #116
    Either a person can be reformed or they can’t. If they can’t prison isn’t the answer but a mental institution.

  17. #117
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Either a person can be reformed or they can’t. If they can’t prison isn’t the answer but a mental institution.
    But if they're not allowed to leave the mental institution then how is not just a fluffier version of a prison...

  18. #118
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    i'm not neccesarily against life in prison im more pro death penalty. for example i think white collar crime should be prosecuted with life imprisionment when it involves scams or businesses that intentionally and maliciously did wrong.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    You can forgive someone, but they still can suffer the consequences of their actions. Of course some can be rehabilitated and there is times we need to show some mercy. But in some cases, it is best to just send them to the maker for judgement. Contrary to what many think, some can never be redeemed.
    What maker? Their parents?
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  20. #120
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    But if they're not allowed to leave the mental institution then how is not just a fluffier version of a prison...
    because not everyone is in their for life
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

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