[SPOILER]Return of Garrosh?

[tommyhil622]

he was making expansions there to fight the alliance, not to conquer Easter kingdoms


good in what sense? a good person like thrall is? no he wasn't, but he was a good character, he delivered an enjoyable story, had reasons, had flaws and did cool stuff, some of then were imperative to the horde survival, he was completely fine in cata

I think you're love for Garrosh has clouded your judgement there. Yes he wanted to conqure the Eastern Kingdoms. Elminating the alliance includes conquering their lands which means he wanted a world wide assault. Not just Kalimdor.

no strategy? do you even know what he did? transform the horde in a super potency, he retake horde territories and grab more, he only lost ashenvale because deus ex machina wild god powered varian. Instigate war? you mean the war the alliance started and also instigated in every front? lol, you guys think Garrosh was the one who start everything, when he is merely the person who try to finish it

Again you are cherry picking. I went back to WOTLK where he was in the warpath just like varian was. A warchief that actually cared for the entire horde wouldn't be mindlessly starting wars. Varian did the same thing, and was a warmonger for much of WOTLK. Comparing the two doesnt make Garrosh any better. They aren't good characters. Neither Garrosh nor Varian. No matter how many times you try to say that nothing you have quoted thus far makes him a good character. He was a one dimensional character in Wotlk and in cata with moments of potential, nothing more.

Again you can simply say i like Garrosh and move on but to try to paint him like a good character is an entirely different matter. I'm actually starting to think you like the idea of an ideal Garrosh one that wasn't one dimensional and had some sort of depth before he was massacred in MoP. That i can climb on board.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

@Syegfryed What is your opinion on the unprovoked attack on Gilneas?

[Syegfryed]

I think you're love for Garrosh has clouded your judgement there. Yes he wanted to conqure the Eastern Kingdoms. Elminating the alliance includes conquering their lands which means he wanted a world wide assault. Not just Kalimdor.

i think people hate against him is what cloud the judgment here, you are ignoring every single thing o go just "yep warmonger go brrrr"

he didn't want to conquer easter kingdons, just kalindor, he never stated or said otherwise, the rest is you assuming, he could very well crush then and just go back

Again you are cherry picking. I went back to WOTLK where he was in the warpath just like varian was. A warchief that actually cared for the entire horde wouldn't be mindlessly starting wars. Varian did the same thing, and was a warmonger for much of WOTLK. Comparing the two doesnt make Garrosh any better. They aren't good characters. Neither Garrosh nor Varian. No matter how many times you try to say that nothing you have quoted thus far makes him a good character. He was a one dimensional character in Wotlk and in cata with moments of potential, nothing more.

Varian declared and started the war, what you want him to do? sit and lose? lol.

Again, what is the good character you are talking about? what is a good character? cause he ws completely fine and its the reason why so many people like and dislike him, he was liked by the horde and people in the alliance liked to dislike him, because he was a cool antagonist

a flawed character is a good character, because he is not the perfect cliche, he do mistakes, he do right things, he hve personality, reasons and all.

Again you can simply say i like Garrosh and move on but to try to paint him like a good character, i don't know where you getting this from.

throwing back at you, you can simple say you hate him, trying to pain him as unidimensional, you are just being oblivion about it.

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@Syegfryed What is your opinion on the unprovoked attack on Gilneas?

so? alliance and horde attacked neutral people all the time in wow lifetime, they always go for its not my friend neither friendly to me, is my enemy

in a pragmatic view, it was an easy target with a great location, but sylvanas fucked up.

[tommyhil622]

i think people hate against him is what cloud the judgment here, you are ignoring every single thing o go just "yep warmonger go brrrr"

he didn't want to conquer easter kingdons, just kalindor, he never stated or said otherwise, the rest is you assuming, he could very well crush then and just go back

Yea sorry not buying that argument.

Varian declared and started the war, what you want him to do? sit and lose? lol.

Again, what is the good character you are talking about? what is a good character? cause he ws completely fine and its the reason why so many people like and dislike him, he was liked by the horde and people in the alliance liked to dislike him, because he was a cool antagonist

a flawed character is a good character, because he is not the perfect cliche, he do mistakes, he do right things, he hve personality, reasons and all.

Sure he can fight back but again that's not what i'm talking about. He had no depth beyond the sole motivation. You keep referencing Varian but he was just as bad in Wotlk.

throwing back at you, you can simple say you hate him, trying to pain him as unidimensional, you are just being oblivion about it.

I don't hate any character, i just don't think one-dimensional characters are good ones.

But it's cool if you like him.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

so? alliance and horde attacked neutral people all the time in wow lifetime, they always go for its not my friend neither friendly to me, is my enemy

in a pragmatic view, it was an easy target with a great location, but sylvanas fucked up.

What neutral kingdoms/cities has the Alliance attacked without being provoked? Is it really okay to slaughter innocent people because "it was an easy target with a great location"?

[Melusine]

doubt it.
unlike ursoc, garrosh has a huuuge fanbase, who'd probably riot if they see garrosh again after 6 years, only for him to get perma destroyed.
and especially after BfA, im not sure blizz wants to risk potentially turning players away

I don't. the fanbase for Sylvanas dwarfs that for Garrosh, and this is going to be her final expac.

[Nero Duskwind]

Did the video even confirm it was Garrosh?

What other orcs has Patrick Seitz voiced? It's def him. No other orc, save his father, has that same look of burning defiance in their eyes.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

nose ring and earrings , can't see clearly his tattoed jaw but i'm pretty sure it was Garry. edit: at 1:59 his neck tattoos are visibile

What other orcs has Patrick Seitz voiced? It's def him. No other orc, save his father, has that same look of burning defiance in their eyes.

Don't worry I know, this was my comment a few replies down on the page.

I was just making sure. I compared the tusks, earings, and tattoos and yeah I agree it confirms it's Garrosh.

[baskev]

The night elfs were not willing to talk further and With the cataclysm and alliance started to act on the war they started in undercity They were strapped on time even more so then they were before setting up whole new operations which would have taken time to get any results was a non option.

Theramore was being used as a staging ground before the cataclysm it had nothing to do With garrosh becoming unhinged and they had troopings going a stones throw away from org and mulgore. They made them selfs a threat before garrosh had done any thing.



Carine betrayed him because He was tricked by the TH and didn’t look into it at all.

Vul’jin betrayed him for no reason.

Sylvanas was apparently working with the jailer or some shit but to keep it in line with cata She was trying to expans the forsaken and using blight every where which garrosh was against.

None of them were garrosh’S fault but sylvanas but she was mimicking the lichking so it was totally justified.


Varian started the war when thrall was in charge Every thing garrosh did was in respone to that war and the betray of the other horde leaders not the other way round.

- There are more people to supply food to the horde.
- yes , and did they ever attack one of the cities...nope. Once they attacked a village. And they even annouced that they where doing it so the civilians could leave.
- the betrails: because he started a war, bombed towns, killed/put in prison etc the people who did not agree with him.
- yes, even garrosh saw the screaming women was bad news.
- But did varian attack everytime. Nope, did varia try to work together with the horde, yes. And did you just say that garrosh betrayed the other leaders. You said he did nothing wrong for them to rebel against ?

[Timester]

Garrosh did plenty wrong, but Ashenvale wasn't part of it. The Twilight Hammer messed up the meetings between the druids by disguising themselves as Orgrimmar grunts and staged an attack on said druids.
Cairne then challenged him to a Mak'gora due to believing Garrosh personally sent those orcs, the night elves refused to cooperate anymore and the rest is history.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Wolfheart

Garrosh did invaded Ashenvale during shortly after the Cataclysm.

[baskev]

ty to talk again? lmao, like they would listen, thus, your people is dying, there is no waiting

Yes, it was no longer just nightelves. It was also the alliance. Jaina was back then willing to bridge the devided. And there where other lands on kalimidor. And war does not kill people.

no, theramore was serving as alliance base way before that, day one of cataclysm they launch an massive force against honor's stands, even prior Garrosh doing anything, reaction my ass

Yeah because all the times the alliance attack oggrimar and thunder bluff from theramore. Oohh wait they did not. 1 town, and they warned that town about the attack. And the horde did nothing during that time. They did not attack gilneas...oohh wait they did.
Theramore was btw a city in a non horde area. Because it was no ones land before Jaina landed there.

because they acted like massive retards, they didn't want to fight a war the alliance started, they would rather died shocked by the alliance than do something bout because "muh garrosh bloodthirsty""

First off alliance did not start the all out war. Secondly they also rebelled because of other things. You sidestep that.

bull shit, the alliance attacked and started the war first, the horde was reacting then took a more pro-active approach, Varian went full yolo in cataclysm just like to the point of losing a lot because of that, saying it was Garrosh fault only show completely unawareness of the events.

No they did not. It was a cold war at best. No sieges, no attacks, no big battles. Garrosh started it with theramore. And again, horde attacked gilneas, ashenvale etc.

[Syegfryed]

Yea sorry not buying that argument.

you prefer the headcanon all right

Sure he can fight back but again that's not what i'm talking about. He had no depth beyond the sole motivation. You keep referencing Varian but he was just as bad in Wotlk.

how he had no deep, do you even read about him? even his inner struggle and daddy issues is a real thing that gave him deep, with mundane flaws and problems

I don't hate any character, i just don't think one-dimensional characters are good ones.

But it's cool if you like him.

Garrosh will always be one of the most conflicted/nuanced character in wow, nothing about him prior or after mop was one-dimensional

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What neutral kingdoms/cities has the Alliance attacked without being provoked? Is it really okay to slaughter innocent people because "it was an easy target with a great location"?

alliance murdering trolls left and right ring any bells? or they don't count because they are trolls? the darkspear tribe are a living proof of that, of how they had left because the alliance attacks, im sure there is more and you can find it, not rly "kingdom/cities" but people/races.

not wanting to go further appealing with emotion, im talking about the pragmatic view about it, in a war, nothing will be "okay"

[Timester]

Garrosh will always be one of the most conflicted/nuanced character in wow, nothing about him prior or after mop was one-dimensional

Are you talking about some other Garrosh character from another fictional universe?

Because Garrosh is one of the most one-dimensional characters that WoW had, a hothead racist orc with pride and daddy issues. There is nothing conflicted or nuanced about him.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

alliance murdering trolls left and right ring any bells? or they don't count because they are trolls? the darkspear tribe are a living proof of that, of how they had left because the alliance attacks, im sure there is more and you can find it, not rly "kingdom/cities" but people/races.

not wanting to go further appealing with emotion, im talking about the pragmatic view about it, in a war, nothing will be "okay"

Honestly the thing about Trolls really doesn't. Could you show some examples because I'm really drawing a blank.

[Timester]

alliance murdering trolls left and right ring any bells? or they don't count because they are trolls? the darkspear tribe are a living proof of that, of how they had left because the alliance attacks, im sure there is more and you can find it, not rly "kingdom/cities" but people/races.

The Darkspear? They were kicked from Stranglethorn Valley by the rest of the Jungle Trolls. The Alliance never set a foot before WoW on the jungle.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, it was no longer just nightelves. It was also the alliance. Jaina was back then willing to bridge the devided. And there where other lands on kalimidor. And war does not kill people.

Jaina let her own city to be n alliance base, and like i said others lands are far away and difficult, why i would waste precious time and already lo resources when i can get from the enemy where i already have a strong base?

Yeah because all the times the alliance attack oggrimar and thunder bluff from theramore. Oohh wait they did not. 1 town, and they warned that town about the attack.

even prior cata theramore was an alliance base sending reinforcments to the dwarves invading the tauren lands in the barren and northwatch hold in durotar, one day before the cataclysm hey lauched a massive attack until honor's stand, are you sure they did not?

And the horde did nothing during that time. They did not attack gilneas...oohh wait they did.

guilneas was not alliance and was way after the alliance attacks lol

Theramore was btw a city in a non horde area. Because it was no ones land before Jaina landed there.

it doesn't matter it was in a "non horde area" it was an alliance city used as a base to attack the horde.

First off alliance did not start the all out war. Secondly they also rebelled because of other things. You sidestep that.

they did start the war, Varian declared in the battle of undercity in wtlk, i didn't say a thing about rebellion you strawman that

No they did not. It was a cold war at best. No sieges, no attacks, no big battles. Garrosh started it with theramore. And again, horde attacked gilneas, ashenvale etc.

Alliance declared war in undercity and alliance attacked the horde one day before cataclysm taking honor's stand, theramore was prior fucking mop and the war was already going on even before cataclysm with dwarves invading tauren lands firebombing an entire clan and invading durotar, you have no idea wht youa re talking about

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Honestly the thing about Trolls really doesn't. Could you show some examples because I'm really drawing a blank.

why not? they are a neutral people doing nothing against the alliance, the entire story of the humans is how they conquer the entire easter kingdoms by killing other races and driving then out.

The Darkspear were not that savage and they were pushed out by humans and other trolls, in their isles they were attacked by kul'tiran, thats why they joined thrall, and later kul'tiras attacked then again in the founding of durotar

The Darkspear? They were kicked from Stranglethorn Valley by the rest of the Jungle Trolls. The Alliance never set a foot before WoW on the jungle.

Same as i said previously, Vol'jin also talk in his book about how he hate humans because their conflicts in stranglethorn valley

Are you talking about some other Garrosh character from another fictional universe?

Because Garrosh is one of the most one-dimensional characters that WoW had, a hothead racist orc with pride and daddy issues. There is nothing conflicted or nuanced about him.

3 different characteristcs, one wrong, but that alone would make him not one-dimensional :^)

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

why not? they are a neutral people doing nothing against the alliance, the entire story of the humans is how they conquer the entire easter kingdoms by killing other races and driving then out.

The Darkspear were not that savage and they were pushed out by humans and other trolls, in their isles they were attacked by kul'tiran, thats why they joined thrall, and later kul'tiras attacked then again in the founding of durotar

Nono, my "Really doesn't" is towards you asking if it "ring any bells", not that I disagree. I just didn't know what you meant.

You are correct that a Kul'tiran fleet did attack them, that was wrong, however that was something they were doing on their own. Daelin Proudmoore is completely to blame, and his entire actions caused Kul'tiran to pull from the Alliance.

[Timester]

Same as i said previously, Vol'jin also talk in his book about how he hate humans because their conflicts in stranglethorn valley

So, no reason.

3 different characteristcs, one wrong, but that alone would make him not one-dimensional :^)

Neither wrong and pretty much one-dimensional. "I hate humans because my dad left me *cries*. Smash humans!".

[Syegfryed]

Nono, my "Really doesn't" is towards you asking if it "ring any bells", not that I disagree. I just didn't know what you meant.

You are correct that a Kul'tiran fleet did attack them, that was wrong, however that was something they were doing on their own. Daelin Proudmoore is completely to blame, and his entire actions caused Kul'tiran to pull from the Alliance.

kul'tirans still is alliance nevertheless, and like i said, alliance and other humans did that as well with other races too(the alliance attacked the darkspear while in stranglethorn vale too)

there is no good guys, everyone have they share of shit done, its war and conquest

And pretty sure it was the alliance not giving a shit about kul'tirans that pulled then out

[tommyhil622]

you prefer the headcanon all right




how he had no deep, do you even read about him? even his inner struggle and daddy issues is a real thing that gave him deep, with mundane flaws and problems



Garrosh will always be one of the most conflicted/nuanced character in wow, nothing about him prior or after mop was one-dimensional

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alliance murdering trolls left and right ring any bells? or they don't count because they are trolls? the darkspear tribe are a living proof of that, of how they had left because the alliance attacks, im sure there is more and you can find it, not rly "kingdom/cities" but people/races.

not wanting to go further appealing with emotion, im talking about the pragmatic view about it, in a war, nothing will be "okay"

Judging by your replies its pretty safe to assume you don't know what a one dimensional character is.

The term one-dimensional character in a book review or story refers to a character who lacks depth and who never seems to learn or grow. When a character is one-dimensional, he or she does not demonstrate a sense of learning in the course of a story.

Can you please direct me to any sort of quatifiable growth in Garrosh?