[SPOILER]Return of Garrosh?

[Syegfryed]

So, no reason.

and???

Neither wrong and pretty much one-dimensional. "I hate humans because my dad left me *cries*. Smash humans!".

i mean, maybe your understanding is one-dimensional, cause thats definitely not what he did, recommend reading his short-story, wolfheart and the shattering, even war crimes show more of him that is showed in game

he wasn't rly racist, he didn't give a shit about race as long they show loyalty, he was more xenophobic towards the end.

And rly racism is something so common in wow, even in early days, Varian by example was one, night elves too

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Judging by your replies its pretty safe to assume you don't know what a one dimensional character is.

The term one-dimensional character in a book review or story refers to a character who lacks depth and who never seems to learn or grow. When a character is one-dimensional, he or she does not demonstrate a sense of learning in the course of a story.

And when he didn't had any depth? what i see is people who didn't read any single thing about him saying he is just a racist that wanted to kill everyone because daddy issues and nothing more lol. and he is definitely not like that

Can you please direct me to any sort of quatifiable growth in Garrosh?

do you seriously not see any growth since his first appearance in TBC? even his descending into madness was a massive change/growth from the loser in TBC

[tommyhil622]

and???



i mean, maybe your understanding is one-dimensional, cause thats definitely not what he did, recommend reading his short-story, wolfheart and the shattering, even war crimes show more of him that is showed in game

he wasn't rly racist, he didn't give a shit about race as long they show loyalty, he was more xenophobic towards the end.

And rly racism is something so common in wow, even in early days, Varian by example was one, night elves too

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And when he didn't had any depth? what i see is people who didn't read any single thing about him saying he is just a racist that wanted to kill everyone because daddy issues and nothing more lol. and he is definitely not like that



do you seriously not see any growth since his first appearance in TBC? even his descending into madness was a massive change/growth from the loser in TBC

Thats not growth quite the opposite, MoP is just the same Garrosh with the same bad traits only magnified. He actually became even more one dimensional, only thing he was missing was the twirly mustache.

[Timester]

And when he didn't had any depth? what i see is people who didn't read any single thing about him saying he is just a racist that wanted to kill everyone because daddy issues and nothing more lol. and he is definitely not like that

Except the people that wrote him said exactly that, that he is a racist orc with daddy issues.

From Metzen himself: ""Is this guy really his daddy's son, or can he be an epic Warchief?"

I guess Garrosh is the first.

do you seriously not see any growth since his first appearance in TBC? even his descending into madness was a massive change/growth from the loser in TBC

Growth? His bad features were magnified, he went from "my daddy was a baddie" to "my daddy was the best! Kill humans like daddy!", with no nuance. Even Grom was a deeper character.

[Syegfryed]

Except the people that wrote him said exactly that, that he is a racist orc with daddy issues.

From Metzen himself: ""Is this guy really his daddy's son, or can he be an epic Warchief?"

I guess Garrosh is the first.

that was not his only trait and that don't make him one dimensional, never said he didn't had flaws, but those flaws fleshed out the character to be more real and not a perfect guy who can do no wrong.

And taking account of what he did, for thegood and for the bad, he was the second

Thats not growth quite the opposite, MoP is just the same Garrosh with the same bad traits only magnified. He actually became even more one dimensional, only thing he was missing was the twirly mustache.

they dropped the ball because the need to make him villain, so their bend him making cartoon morning villain, but before he wasn't rly one dimensional.

Is like saying Thanos is an one-dimensional villain who just want fuck the universe because he is crazy

not wanting to say they are the same, before you try that

[Timester]

that was not his only trait and that don't make him one dimensional

I have yet to see what makes Garrosh different from an "one-dimensional" character. Because I gave all that he is.

they dropped the ball because the need to make him villain, so their bend him making cartoon morning villain, but before he wasn't rly one dimensional.

Blizzard didn't dropped "anything", they wrote their character as they wanted. So, Garrosh is what you got, an one-dimensional character with no depth at all.

Is like saying Thanos is an one-dimensional villain who just want fuck the universe because he is crazy

Where is Garrosh's version of showing love and explaining the reasoning behind the Snap like Marvel did with Thanos?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

- There are more people to supply food to the horde.
- yes , and did they ever attack one of the cities...nope. Once they attacked a village. And they even annouced that they where doing it so the civilians could leave.
- the betrails: because he started a war, bombed towns, killed/put in prison etc the people who did not agree with him.
- yes, even garrosh saw the screaming women was bad news.
- But did varian attack everytime. Nope, did varia try to work together with the horde, yes. And did you just say that garrosh betrayed the other leaders. You said he did nothing wrong for them to rebel against ?

I don't know why i'm even humoring this as you don't seem to even know the basic of the lore but hey here's one last shot.

The orc's did not have any one else that could supply them with what they needed in the time they needed it.

the forces that theramore staged were working on plans to attack org and were sieging the gate to mulgore.

garrosh didn't start the war and the other horde leaders turned on him before he had done any thing to warrant it.

Yes vaRian attacked every time he started the bloody war with the goal of wiping out the orcs, he didn't work with them at all.

[Syegfryed]

Where is Garrosh's version of showing love and explaining the reasoning behind the Snap like Marvel did with Thanos?

his short story

[Jastall]

There is no canon version of this event and it's barely even referenced. It's one of those things that transparently existed solely to try and get the playerbase to be further against Garrosh simply because his writing was unintentionally more nuanced. The guy was an abrasive dick for the entirety of Mists, but he was not motiveless and had moments of actual characterization. Compare and contrast the current Warchief de jour, hence things that are either blatantly OOC - like his unit of warlocks and Forsaken using Blight, or just contradictory and unexplained - like the Theramore captives to help fix this up. But it did still happen, so it's on his Revendreth wrap sheet.

That having been said, I don't really take much issue with either the nuking or with Jaina's actions but so much the retarded way they're framed. Jaina being a woman of peace but knowing that Garrosh would likely not allow Theramore to stick around and thus allowing the Alliance to act through her land isn't illogical. She's responsible for a city and she knows she likely won't be able to treat with him. This having bad consequences as the closest front to reinforce is the tauren one ditto. In turn, Garrosh intended to use the Stonetalon bomb - but not on a civilian target. In Theramore's case, he also didn't use it on a civilian target - no matter how things went, his strategy would always result in the civilians leaving, be it intended or a side-effect.

What kills it is that Jaina's actions in Cataclysm are never discussed by the characters, yet they still happen since all the Alliance positions exist in the book and the attack on Taurajo is mentioned. It's just that the only one who seems to be basing any policy on them is Garrosh, so he comes off as the lone sane man among people with severe brain damage. In turn, he's written in every scene to be a raving tool who believes that everyone around him is a subversive dumbass, even when the core of what he's doing is both morally and strategically sound and this assessment of his is demonstrably correct. Even later on, every subsequent portrayal of Theramore doesn't retcon it, but it does always treat it as being a vast loss of civilian life which it isn't.

Tides of War is a mess that looks better only by virtue of not being Before the Storm. And that after 5.4, Blizzard backtracked and in as much as he existed in WoD he was intentionally nuanced. Compare and contrast how in WoD 2.0 Sylvanas only becomes more and more boring. And also here's to hoping that Garrosh is patch content not a boss add.

I'm not even sure what's the canon of the war in Cataclysm anymore, to be honest. Maybe in Chronicles V.5: Now With More Titan Perspective we'll learn that the Alliance never attacked the Barrens and the people of Taurajo happened to slip on bananas and kill themselves all at the same time or something. We don't even know if Garrosh called Sylvanas the dreaded B word anymore either.

Point of it all is, Garrosh's rap sheet is more than enough to land him in Revendreth, and if not that then his immeasurable pride certainly would make him an ideal candidate. Proof enough, they can't milk him dry even when trying. The Arbiter most certainly chose well in this instance. I do wonder if Garrosh would have been redeemable by the Venthyr's standards had the leadership not been hopelessly corrupt and more interested in using him as their personal Energizer bunny than in actually doing their job.

[Timester]

his short story

The one that he was pissed with the Tauren and then with the quilboar and went "Smash quilboar!", just to be saved by Baine?

[Syegfryed]

The one that he was pissed with the Tauren and then with the quilboar and went "Smash quilboar!", just to be saved by Baine?

no, its the hellscream one.

but taking account this response i bet it will not make any difference for you.

[Daronokk]

I know this is speculation.. but you bring fourth a few names that realy isnt sure if they even have a soul anymore.

Varian soul got destroyed so idk how you get that name.
Arthas will likely not be redeemed just headcanon
Garrosh will also likely not be redeemed.

Blizzard specifically named these three dead characters when talking about Shadowlands. They all have a huge supply of anima through their deeds in life. They're also core characters and have been a big part of the franchise for a long time.

Given we've already seen hints regarding Arthas and Garrosh in the short cinematics it's not that big of a stretch to assume Varian will also show up somewhere. Especially if Anduin is held captive all this time. There is a reason these characters were named in the presentation, it's because they play a role in the expansion. Blizzard won't name a character and build hype and then not do anything with it. That's not how marketing works. Marketing is about creating an expectation.

[Vrinara]

Christ alive, I pre-ordered SL the day it was announced. I was making a hype-joke.

What do you get out of behaving that way?

I was also joking my friend. Relax

[Syegfryed]

Given we've already seen hints regarding Arthas and Garrosh in the short cinematics it's not that big of a stretch to assume Varian will also show up somewhere. Especially if Anduin is held captive all this time. .

how can varian show up if his soul was destroyed? unless they retcon that

[formerShandalay]

how can varian show up if his soul was destroyed? unless they retcon that

It's not sure that his soul was destroyed. His body was, but as we saw even the souls of those people used as 'fuel' for the Legion ships and machines aren't actually destroyed, only very much depleted, tormented and confused, but they can be rescued. There were several quests about that.

I personally still think Varian is the strange Vrykul soul in Helheim when we first get there, who helps us out but then suddenly disappears (Ashild even comments on that, so it's not like it was just a mistake in the script or something). That "Vrykul" talks about the others like they are a different people than he when he talks about their habits and clearly seems to be in the wrong place. He's not a captured spirit, very much not desperate and beaten down and seems more like he should be a Valarjar, but isn't. Maybe his distruction by Fel made it impossible for him to go to the Halls of Valor or any other place he could maybe have gone to in that moment, so he ended up in Helheim.

[Syegfryed]

It's not sure that his soul was destroyed. His body was, but as we saw even the souls of those people used as 'fuel' for the Legion ships and machines aren't actually destroyed, only very much depleted, tormented and confused, but they can be rescued. There were several quests about that.

i mean using as fuel is one thing, that is more using as battery, but gul'dan literally exploded him with fel magic and the result is the soul being destroyed to produce.

[formerShandalay]

i mean using as fuel is one thing, that is more using as battery, but gul'dan literally exploded him with fel magic and the result is the soul being destroyed to produce.

But we don't really know that, it's never ever been stated anywhere that this is what happens. He exploded his body with Fel magic, but that doesn't really affect the soul, or at least we have not heard about it if it does. The only person we've ever heard about being blasted to pieces with his soul actually getting eradicated from existence was Rhonin and that was the Mana Bomb (with the focusing iris). And that was also just an in person-experience by Jaina, not something that was stated as actual canon.
Fel doesn't need the soul to be fueled, at least according to chronicle. It needs life energy and it gets that by killing the person, slowly or quickly, doesn't matter. The soul may be in distress after that (as we saw in the souls on the Broken Shore), but it is still intact, because it isn't needed for the Fel.

[tommyhil622]

Imo the bigger question is that by infusing so much fel in himself that his soul is tied to the twisting nether.

[Dagoth Ur]

This is the best treatment he could've gotten if he had to be reintroduced. Him being sent to Hell would've been cancerous preaching, him being redeemed would turn him into nu-Saurfang.

Garrosh being too angry to repent thus temporarily solving the local anima drought is probably the best thing they could've done with him.

Even though I don't doubt it'll happen, I'm honestly surprised they didn't just symbolically erased him immediately considering current story direction and what he as a character represents.

I'm actually considering taking the bait and hope they're actually going to do something interesting with him.

[Arrashi]

Garrosh being too angry to repent thus temporarily solving the local anima drought is probably the best thing they could've done with him.

Even though I don't doubt it'll happen, I'm honestly surprised they didn't just symbolically erased him immediately considering current story direction and what he as a character represents.

I'm actually considering taking the bait and hope they're actually going to do something interesting with him.

That moment when chains holding garrosh break and BFG division starts playing.

[Dagoth Ur]

That moment when chains holding garrosh break and BFG division starts playing.

We can only hope. All we'd need than is a one way ticket to Orgrimmar and just let the Warchief set things in their proper order.

My only worry is that the recent changes in the Horde's infrastructure wouldn't turn even someone as resolute as Garry away from trying to fix them.