It could be Kel'vax from Nazmir. He has long tusks and could grow a beard in death. His last line implies that he was taken to the Shadowlands.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Fall_of_Kel%27vaxKel'vax Deathwalker says: No! I can't see Bwonsamdi, I no want ta... please, STOP!
Careful! What you deem a "safe zone"of speculation sounds more like a function of your own biases and preconceptions to me.
The Warcraft universe has always been filled with antiheroes, redemption arcs and sympathetic baddies. Metzen was a big fan of ASoIaF, and you can see this in the numerous references and borrowed concepts going back to Warcraft III, but also in the portrayal of the characters. TFT's roster was almost exclusively made up of antiheroes and villains, and even RoC was woefully short on heroes in the classical sense (the most prominent one was actually turned into the villain). Evil was defeated in the end, yes, but many protagonists - from Grom to Tyrande - and even entire groups also had their violent deeds swept under the rug while we were encouraged to cheer for them. WoW has evolved since Metzen, but it still retains a similar approach to storytelling, and most fans still enjoy these types of characters and stories. I mean, there was another thread in which players argued whether Arthas truly deserved the Maw, and many of them wanted a redemption story for him. If you're saying Sylvanas can't ever have that, it feels to me that you're the one going against the grain.
It's one thing to have preferences and stand by them - and it can be hard to tell, let alone prove, whether we think a certain narrative is good because we want it to happen or we want it to happen because we believe it is good - but that doesn't entitle you to position yourself as some sort of gatekeeper to what is or is not considered good speculation...
I am not substituting anything. In the case of the Ardenweald cinematic, the message I extracted originally exists in the narrative regardless of the writers' intention, and there is no sign there that they didn't want us to read those thematic points in it and analyze them. After all, they have shown in the Revendreth clip that they can be subtle.
If you are referring to Sylvanas, again I am not substituting anything, because her story so far has been constructed as a puzzle that still has missing pieces. I view this as an invitation to speculate. It may be a vain one, much like our speculation about the reason for burning Teldrassil, but it seems to me like a sign of respect and confidence in the writers to believe that they have something planned that can lock in with the disjointed narrative in BFA and lock it into something more harmonious. I find it bizarre that you continue to "defend" the writers from this and regard my confidence and engagement in the story as some sort of trap, like a sad kitten who runs away from being petted.
It is not a trap. I didn't think they would be able to justify her playing 4-D chess in any believable way, but involving the Dreadlords makes it work for me. And I am genuinely excited for the possibility that the rebellion was manipulated into existence by Sylvanas herself for the purpose of stabilizing the Horde after her departure, because this fixes most if not all of the narrative issues I had with it, and might actually make it exciting to roll an alt and go through the story again to see the hints and how well it ties together. This wouldn't make her any less ruthless, mind you, she would have still used and killed people to achieve her goal, but it would make her smarter and - most importantly! - would make the narrative more coherent.
Here's a good example of you diverging from lore and using your own contextualization as an argument.
The rebellion story doesn't paint Baine and Saurfang as the more popular side. On the contrary, it was said that they had very few supporters when they joined up with the Alliance in Dustwallow Marsh, and Baine had just been revealed a traitor in front of all the other Horde leaders, who didn't seem that eager to defend him at that time. Aside from that, you are trying to argue that Sylvanas's forces in Orgrimmar weren't strong enough to deal with an expected and planned infiltration from Saurfang, Jaina, Thrall and Mathias Shaw. This is clearly absurd, since there wouldn't have been any need for a military stand-off later if this was the case; just take one more to fill the Mythic+ group and clear the place out.
You can at best make the unfalsifiable claim that Sylvanas did not have the means to stop the escape, but this is not more convincing assumption, let alone a counter to the theory that Sylvanas didn't want the escape to fail.
I don't need to believe that the villain will be victorious in the end in order to consider them a threat. I only need to believe they can harm the heroes I care about. The narrative constantly paints Sylvanas as a threat to several lore figures throughout BFA: Tyrande, Malfurion, Jaina, Anduin, Baine, Bwonsamdi, Maiev, Thrall, etc., but she doesn't succeed in ending any one of them, or even lesser named characters for that matter. Aside from numerous nameless or random NPCs, she only killed Delaryn at the very start, then Zelig (both of them newly introduced), and then Saurfang, but Saurfang got exactly the death he wanted and his sacrifice brought victory to those who followed him, so it was hardly a high point for Sylvanas (quite the contrary, he explicitly characterized her as a failure during that fight).
It boggles the mind that you find the concepts of foreshadowing and narrative parallels so arcane. To reference ASoIaF again, [spoiler]the wolf killed by the stag's antler at the start of AGoT foreshadows how Robert's downfall will also spell Ned's end. In the show, Jon betraying Ygritte and her subsequent death foreshadow, parallel and emotionally impact his ultimate decision to kill Dany.[/spoilers]. Likewise, the fight Saurfang and Nathanos had in Orgrimmar being a ruse would fit in place very well as foreshadowing and narrative parallel if it was revealed that the fight Saurfang and Sylvanas had in front of Orgrimmar was also a ruse. There is nothing complicated about it. Foreshadowing is a good device that writers can use so that they can go back an say: "Look, as far back as here, I knew the story was going this way and I gave you a hint". I never claimed it was proof, just a little something cool that aligns with the theory.
To be fair, they made some comments that even I disliked... That being said, I tend to root for the writers, not against them, because I'm happier when the story comes out well. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize. Criticism and discussion makes us all more informed, and it can certainly make them better if they are able to learn from it.
That a lot of the criticism around here is partisan and toxic, and not very informed in the manner of good storytelling, that's another matter. The writers want us to be engaged, and when they are engaged with the world and the story, people are entitled to express their opinions and it shouldn't surprise anyone that they will be vocal. I'm not going to pity them too much, because they have a highly enviable job that many of us would have probably loved to try our hands at.
That question on its own is irrelevant. If I had to answer it on its own, I would say that I don't know. The important thing to me is that it doesn't really clash with the long con theory. If the theory is incorrect, sure, she meant it, and it's yet another thing that didn't go her way (among at least a dozen or so). If the theory is true, it would be one of the many things said in order to maintain appearances, when it's easy for us to see how she wouldn't actually expect Azhara to do it.
Since I already defined it, you now have the means to make that determination whenever it's employed - assuming you are successful in your argumentation.
I don't think anti-heroes are in any way fatalistic or overly grim, so that's fine on its face. I actually prefer anti-heroes to outright heroes myself, as I enjoy both moral complexity and depth of storytelling as concerns ethical ambiguity. But I do prefer "heroism" be implicit in the characterization, as opposed to villains with good publicity. Personally speaking, I think Sylvanas is too far gone for a redemption story, but I'm on record as saying it would be acceptable so long as it was done right. I feel the same about Arthas, generally speaking. That being said, this whole notion of every villain needing a redemption is kind of silly - some villains should remain villains.
As for "gatekeeping" speculation, that's neither my intent nor my desire. But I remain steadfast that all speculation, like all opinions, are not necessarily made equal. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" as the old aphorism goes, and so it goes in the realm of speculation - extraordinary speculation requires extraordinary grounding.
That sounds awful close to trying to prove a negative claim: "well, it wasn't not there, so that doesn't positively discount what I'm referring to." The more you need to "read something in" apropos of nothing, the less grounding you're going to have. Subtle means delicate and precise enough to evade casual detection, but still definitively present. Something entirely absent categorically can't be subtle.
You remain on this tangent despite my outright saying it's not the case, so I can't really dissuade you any further from this course. I'll just say you're incorrect in understanding my intention, and either can't or won't accept that and instead opt to continue down this mistaken line of argument. Speculate away if that's your wish - but if you can't successfully defend your argumentation without resorting to ad hominem style attacks I don't think you're going to convince anyone, especially not me. As for Sylvanas herself, I think the curtain has been more or less conclusively dropped in terms of what her ultimate storyline will be. Back in Cata, MoP, or even Legion there was ample room to speculate on Sylvanas' ultimate goals and rationale - but as of BfA and now Shadowlands, I think we've entered her arc of descent into outright villain status. There's little to no room now to reverse course.
Your implication here is that the narrative was less than coherent previously, but I don't really buy into that - which may be the backbone of our basic disagreement. You may not like the story being told, but I think it's relatively easy to follow and flows from A, to B, to C in a relatively linear fashion. If Sylvanas wanted to reform the Horde to stabilize that she could've done it back in Legion if she were of a mind to - generating a genocide to prompt a bloody coup and insurrection was entirely unnecessarily. She could've just used her power as Warchief to create a Council, appoint heads of states from the various Horde client-states, and then abolish and abdicate the position of Warchief entirely - the Warchief has that kind of power, after all, as they are the supreme autocrat within the Horde. With that prosaic fact in mind, it stands to reason that her actions as Warchief manifestly weren't about reforming the Horde.
I would say we're looking at very different lore, then. When Baine is actually arrested at the Horde summit, there are only 2 Horde leaders who completely put their faith in Sylvanas: Gallywix and Geya'rah. The rest of them express sympathy for Baine, are aghast at Sylvanas' treatment of him, or confess alarm and concern for the state of the Horde in general. As for the rest, I'm saying that the number of loyalists Sylvanas could depend on to secure Baine were minimal, as they were a minority of the populace. Having popular support for a specific war does not mean she could trust anyone in the Horde with such a duty - not with enduring reminders such as Nazgrim (who allowed Saurfang and Thrall into Orgrimmar during Garrosh's tyrannical turn) and Eitrigg who could easily be swayed by Horde luminaries like Thrall or Saurfang. If you think Saurfang couldn't bluff himself past a few nameless grunts and into Baine's prison then I'd say you're quite mistaken. She needed people she could trust to fight two legends of the Horde if necessary, and *those* types of people would be in very short supply.
That is why the escape succeeded.
I am not sure how this long chain of depictions factors into suspension of disbelief, and Sylvanas being a threat to various characters wasn't really the disbelief I was talking about to begin with. I think any two characters within the same general tier of power (e.g. faction leaders) could conceivably kill the other with the right conditions and set-up. Sylvanas is certainly both dangerous and skilled enough to kill Tyrande, Malfurion, or Jaina - of course any of those three could also kill her under the right conditions (discounting her power-up by the Jailer as it were).
It probably boggles your mind because you're mistaken, as I understand both the concepts of foreshadowing and narrative parallels pretty clearly. The main crux here is that something you feel is foreshadowing is something I don't think is foreshadowing, for the aforementioned reasons. As I'm disputing the speculative conclusion you've arrived at that said instance is meant to foreshadow, it logically follows that I don't think it's actually foreshadowing (since it has nothing proceeding it as its "shadow" so to speak). I don't think Saurfang's Mak'gora with Sylvanas was a ruse in the manner you do, hence I don't think Nathanos and Saurfang's disagreement prior to the War of Thorns was foreshadowing it. Hopefully that helps clear up your confusion.
Agreed.
I don't think criticism should stem from professional jealousy, as that seems to be what you're implying above. It's also not a matter of pity or praise in my view.
And again, that completely discounts that she'd not only have to predict Azshara's actions, but also the newly-freed N'Zoth's. Sylvanas is smart, sure, but she's not that smart, nor do I think she'd make such a rash gamble on any number of unforeseeable outcomes for something so critically important to her. I also think the question is very relevant - as it is at the heart of both her characterization and rationale for most of BfA's rising action.
I think we're just an an impasse here, with little to no ground to be gained and these exchanges have gotten a bit too time-consuming for the both of us in all likelihood. I'll make this my closing argument, so to speak - feel free to riposte if you wish to.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
I guess you are correct. We have different artistic preferences and different perspectives on the story, so we keep yelling past each other or splitting hairs to the N-th degree trying to convince one another of things that are ultimately open to interpretation. And while I am fairly confident in my assessment of BFA's story when taken at face value, neither of us has a solid footing without seeing the climax to Sylvanas's arc in Shadowlands.
Needless to say, I think a few of your arguments are fallacious, but deconstructing them would look like I'm challenging you again or like I'm taking unfair advantage of you ceding me the last word, so I'll just say you also bring some fair points, and let the readers sort it out for themselves... if anyone else has the time and inclination to follow this gargantuan debate, that is.
I thank you for the conversation, and I'm happy you think my speculations are extraordinary.
Ok, I know this is going to sound weird/dumb, but what's the font called that Blizzard used for the Afterlives title?
I don't play WoW anymore smh.
Why do people keep mentioning Dreadlords lately? The Nathrezim didn't have anything to do with the Lick King helmet from what I recall. (The helm of domination)
That was all Kil'Jaeden (the Deceiver) and torment of Ner'zhul.(soul torn apart) Ner'zhul manipulated Arthas. Not that Nathrezim.
Why is everyone idolizing and talking about Dreadlords lately? There must be some retcon I am unaware of or maybe something else..? Don't tell me Sargeras was heavily influenced by Nathrezim. Sargeras was a big boy titan. I am pretty sure he could make up his own mind. Not only that I would imagine the Void would overpower any type of manipulation a Nathrezim could throw at them. Seriously. Sargeras came to his own demise trying to address the Void.
Edit: Does this all stem from the Dreadlord that was beside Sylvanas for many years? Varimathras. I thought they already did something with his character in one of my favorite retired quest lines, "The battle for Undercity."
Still to me it was Ner'zhul for the helm. Not dreadlords. I guess we are going to be getting a lot of Dreadlord push.
Last edited by Icelin; 2020-09-25 at 02:36 AM.
Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/
Last edited by Aucald; 2020-09-25 at 11:28 AM.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Several clues hint that the Nathrezim are involved in the Shadowlands, especially with Denathrius and Revendreth, and that they may have been serving another master than Sargeras.
https://fr.wowhead.com/news=317833.3...on-written-by-
The original lore was that they forged it, along with the armour and Frostmourne. We now know that they merely robbed them from the Maw and that they are linked with the Jailer.The Nathrezim didn't have anything to do with the Lick King helmet from what I recall. (The helm of domination)
Your forgot about Mal'ganis. And Tichondrius. But, yes, Ner'zhul played his part.That was all Kil'Jaeden (the Deceiver) and torment of Ner'zhul.(soul torn apart) Ner'zhul manipulated Arthas. Not that Nathrezim.
Not retcon. Lore development.Why is everyone idolizing and talking about Dreadlords lately? There must be some retcon I am unaware of or maybe something else..?
Uh, no. The original lore was that Sargeras was lead into a deep depression seeing the corruption of the Eredar and the Nathrezim. Since they changed the Eredar's origin and the Draenei, the Nathrezim were directly responsible for the fall of Sargeras.Don't tell me Sargeras was heavily influenced by Nathrezim. Sargeras was a big boy titan. I am pretty sure he could make up his own mind.
From the previous link: "The void lords all but welcome us with open arms. They are so preoccupied with their thousand truths that they ignore the lies we sow in their very midst.Not only that I would imagine the Void would overpower any type of manipulation a Nathrezim could throw at them. Seriously. Sargeras came to his own demise trying to address the Void.
I believe we can leverage their vast reach to position them as a foil against our other rivals.
We remain wary, though. Since they are observant of multiple outcomes, it is conceivable they could anticipate our coming."
And: "In many ways, the titans will be the easiest to manipulate. Their singular goal is to impose structure upon everything they see.
Show them a force that opposes their drive for Order, and they will be consumed by their urge to eradicate it.
Their pantheon, so seemingly united in purpose, is vulnerable to fracturing."
What's wrong with that?Edit: Does this all stem from the Dreadlord that was beside Sylvanas for many years? Varimathras. I thought they already did something with his character in one of my favorite retired quest lines, "The battle for Undercity."
Still to me it was Ner'zhul for the helm. Not dreadlords. I guess we are going to be getting a lot of Dreadlord push.
"Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"