Idea for New Feature: LFR+ 10man only.

[MrLachyG]

The luxuries that LFR has:
Auto-queue
Auto-replacing leavers
Wings system, jump to three bosses wing when you want
Auto-teleport

Thats much better then making group at groupfinder and it is always a gamble if group succeeds. LFR+10 man would be much better.

Why would they replace 25 with 10? 25 is better all around, more classes means more utility

[ydraw]

LFR isn't ever going away, get used to it.

[Zenjie]

LFR isn't ever going away, get used to it.

It is not going away, i want to add new version

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Why would they replace 25 with 10? 25 is better all around, more classes means more utility

10 people means easier to organise the higher difficulty raid. 15 is fine numbers as well.

[Asrialol]

Introducing a 10 man version will make the queue even longer for DPS.

Right now there's 2 tanks, 6 healers and 17 dps in a LFR. So 17 dps had to wait for 2 tanks and 6 healers.

Assuming a 10 man would be 2-2-6, 6 dps would have to wait for 2 tanks and 2 healers.

So if 17 dps wanted to do a 10 man LFR version, there would have to be 3 runs meaning they're waiting for 6 tanks and 6 healers.

What role do people usually wait the longest for LFR, I wonder.

[MrLachyG]

It is not going away, i want to add new version

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10 people means easier to organise the higher difficulty raid. 15 is fine numbers as well.

no, it doesn't. because its LFR. as in you join via clicking a button. it's a stupid idea that has been proven wrong anyway, why do you bother coming up with this obviously fake shit? MEMES ARE NOT FACTS

[Izzyfurious]

But you can already put together a Normal 10 man group...

Are people really so socially inept that they can't put a group up on the group finder? You don't even have to talk to anyone.

Yeah, except no one has the ******** patient to wait in todays wow for more than max 10 mins. And thats where doing this falls apart everytime. And this is talking about outside having guildies / m8s.

[arkanon]

Yeah, except no one has the ******** patient to wait in todays wow for more than max 10 mins. And thats where doing this falls apart everytime. And this is talking about outside having guildies / m8s.

Im constantly amazed by people who join a pug while its forming, then pack a sad and leave because "this is taking to long, cya" 10 minutes in while we are summoning. I have had numerous people leave at that stage, only to see them re-apply a few minutes later when they realise all groups just take time to form.

I have also had people ragequit on the first boss claiming the group will never get anywhere, and then re-apply when we are on the last boss. The lack of patience and commitment blows my mind sometimes.

My recent favorite is a guy who was getting a HUGE carry - he was below tanks on bosses (damage), and died quite a bit. Group decided to keep him purely for the lols, because he was pretty funny to watch, and we were clearing everything without issues. While he was dead, a tank missed a taunt and caused a wipe - he flipped out and said the group was shit and would never make it to the end, which, apparently, was the only reason he was there.

[stresskiller]

the main reason for me to stop raiding is you always need a main character and no alts in raid well with 28 lvl 120 characters it's hard to pick a main

[Izzyfurious]

Im constantly amazed by people who join a pug while its forming, then pack a sad and leave because "this is taking to long, cya" 10 minutes in while we are summoning. I have had numerous people leave at that stage, only to see them re-apply a few minutes later when they realise all groups just take time to form.

I have also had people ragequit on the first boss claiming the group will never get anywhere, and then re-apply when we are on the last boss. The lack of patience and commitment blows my mind sometimes.

My recent favorite is a guy who was getting a HUGE carry - he was below tanks on bosses (damage), and died quite a bit. Group decided to keep him purely for the lols, because he was pretty funny to watch, and we were clearing everything without issues. While he was dead, a tank missed a taunt and caused a wipe - he flipped out and said the group was shit and would never make it to the end, which, apparently, was the only reason he was there.

My man. A fine fellow that has the exact same experiences with this just like me. So good to hear i don't go through this miserable experience alone.

[arkanon]

My man. A fine fellow that has the exact same experiences with this just like me. So good to hear i don't go through this miserable experience alone.

after 15 years of off/on pugging to fill gaps, i always think i have seen everything - then someone blows my mind all over again. Its usually pretty similar though - they seem to mostly be pretty inexperienced players, they seem to think they are FAR better than they actually are, and they all seem to think the best defense is a good offense - they come out swinging in the hope we might ignore the meters. The best ones are the ones who call someone out on the meter, without realising it includes them:

"Kick the bottom 5 dps and replace them" - gets kicked
"Wtf? why did you kick me? im 7th on dps!!!" - Yeah, and 27th on damage done - you died 30 seconds in, got a brez, and died 30 seconds later to the same mechanic
"oh fuck off, i said DPS! not DMG DONE!!!!!!!!one!!!!!!!!111!!!!"

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the main reason for me to stop raiding is you always need a main character and no alts in raid well with 28 lvl 120 characters it's hard to pick a main

Weird flex, but ok.

[Very rare pepe]

the main reason for me to stop raiding is you always need a main character and no alts in raid well with 28 lvl 120 characters it's hard to pick a main

huh

[munkeyinorbit]

Better hope that healer is good lol

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I know blizzard said this, but it's just not true.

It's nonsense that blizzard has to worry about profitability of raiding. Here are some numbers:

It cost 70-odd million to build all of classic wow. This was publicly released info (by vivendi I believe).

The average raider pays $15*12 + $25 box cost per year (yes I know token exists, but token increases revenue). That's $205 per year.

Let's pretend that the cost for a single year's worth of raids (roughly 2 raids) is equal to the entire cost of vanilla wow: 70 million. That means the break even number is... 340k subscribers. You think that the raids bring in more than 340k subscribers? I do. You think that a raid costs less to develop than 40 zones and 18 dungeons in vanilla (not to mention building the game completely from scratch). I do.

The other obvious reason it's not true is to look at subs when they said this versus now. Subs and revenue have plummeted, yet they're producing more raids then ever. If LFR was the only thing propping up raiding in Pandaria, how the hell can they afford to produce more raids now?

What may be true is that they believe LFR increases revenue, and that's why it's in the game. But pretending that they would have to delete raids if LFR didn't exist is just utter bullshit spouted by a useless corporate flacky.

This is even ignoring all the ancillary benefits having raids brings to the game: a lot of content originally designed for raids (models, art, mechanics) gets reused in dungeons and in the world, so that cost wouldn't disappear, it would just make the world more expensive. Raiding puts wow on twitch with hundreds of thousands of viewers, drawing more people to the game. Raiders make the guides, the addons, and all the things that the community uses without a second thought. And the devs have the audacity to claim that without LFR, raiding wouldn't exist. What a freaking stupid thing to say.

Plain wrong. They made LFR because they were having trouble justifying the ROI that providing raids to a tiny portion of the player base. No one said it was unprofitable but the mantra of "no end game will destroy the game" was getting harder to justify. Adding LFR saved raiding because the ROI was greatly increased. More players using something means that spending money developing it is worth it. It doesn't matter if you think some lacky is spewing bullshit. Facts don't need you to believe in them to be real.

[Mirishka]

UselessMeme.jpg

There is no SL delay, and decreasing the number of people in LFR would make the queue exponentially worse.

Stick to playing games, and leave the design work to people who actually understand game design.

Edited for clarity

[Izzyfurious]

after 15 years of off/on pugging to fill gaps, i always think i have seen everything - then someone blows my mind all over again. Its usually pretty similar though - they seem to mostly be pretty inexperienced players, they seem to think they are FAR better than they actually are, and they all seem to think the best defense is a good offense - they come out swinging in the hope we might ignore the meters. The best ones are the ones who call someone out on the meter, without realising it includes them:

"Kick the bottom 5 dps and replace them" - gets kicked
"Wtf? why did you kick me? im 7th on dps!!!" - Yeah, and 27th on damage done - you died 30 seconds in, got a brez, and died 30 seconds later to the same mechanic
"oh fuck off, i said DPS! not DMG DONE!!!!!!!!one!!!!!!!!111!!!!"

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Weird flex, but ok.

The amount of similar experiences we both have. Is scaring me. It's almost like we are alike in things we experience at the grouping part at end game.

[StillMcfuu]

Raiding with less people makes the raid harder (outside of occasional bosses). LFR is struggling now with difficulty as most people afk or auto attack through it. Taking away the 30 man cushion would be a huge mistake.

[arkanon]

The amount of similar experiences we both have. Is scaring me. It's almost like we are alike in things we experience at the grouping part at end game.

Yeah, i dont consider my experiences to be unique, and they certainly are not intended to scare anyone off pugging, but im pretty sure they are common for most people @ endgame when pugging is involved.

[Eazy]

This looks like a... normal raid with people who can't actually think for themselves and are too stu... simple-minded to actually form and coordinate the group.
The people who want easy reward for just clicking "join" and expecting other people to do their job, because they're too low-skilled to pull their weight that is expected in normal groups.

I am personally not against it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Actually I don't even care. But I am pretty sure I know how it would end.

[arkanon]

Raiding with less people makes the raid harder (outside of occasional bosses). LFR is struggling now with difficulty as most people afk or auto attack through it. Taking away the 30 man cushion would be a huge mistake.

We often pug normal or heroic with 10-15 players, and i agree that in general, the more players you have, the more forgiving the encounters become. However, it does introduce a new issue - managing 20-30 personalities with complete strangers, loot drama, replacing players etc etc.

Personally i would prefer to run with 12 players of appropriate skill and experience with a good attitude and commitment to finishing the run in a reasonable time, whether that be 1 hour, or 3 hours.

[takracobedah]

Normal is the mode that needs to go away. If people remember the current heroic mode was the original normal and mythic is the old heroic mode. Normal was born from flex difficulty which was the variable player count difficulty based on raid size before it was also offered in heroic. The current normal mode is actually the outlier today.

LFR should simply be called normal and be of an equivalent difficulty to normal. No determination by default but if your group wipes multiple times, an NPC appears offering individuals a buff in exchange for lower ilevel personal loot. You get +3 stacks of determination (+15% boost) in exchange for 3 ilevel lower loot stacking up to 12 (+60% boost for LFR equivalent gear) if thats what you need to be competitive in your group. Nobody else can see your buff but you so people won't be able to demand you grab it, but if you're not performing and they can see it, you have a strong option to improve without being autokicked.

No more default easy mode, instead it becomes a personal choice allowing people to push to achieve by the end a normal equivalent difficulty for the mode. This should ease the transition from LFR to the current version of normal which is a bugger jump for newer players than the jump from normal to heroic in terms of social structure.

[arkanon]

Normal is the mode that needs to go away. If people remember the current heroic mode was the original normal and mythic is the old heroic mode. Normal was born from flex difficulty which was the variable player count difficulty based on raid size before it was also offered in heroic. The current normal mode is actually the outlier today.

LFR should simply be called normal and be of an equivalent difficulty to normal. No determination by default but if your group wipes multiple times, an NPC appears offering individuals a buff in exchange for lower ilevel personal loot. You get +3 stacks of determination (+15% boost) in exchange for 3 ilevel lower loot stacking up to 12 (+60% boost for LFR equivalent gear) if thats what you need to be competitive in your group. Nobody else can see your buff but you so people won't be able to demand you grab it, but if you're not performing and they can see it, you have a strong option to improve without being autokicked.

No more default easy mode, instead it becomes a personal choice allowing people to push to achieve by the end a normal equivalent difficulty for the mode. This should ease the transition from LFR to the current version of normal which is a bugger jump for newer players than the jump from normal to heroic in terms of social structure.

In the history of terrible ideas - this one is WAY up there. I dont disagree that 4 difficulties are no longer required, and cutting back to 3 would be a good idea. I dont even disagree that it should be "normal" that is removed. But to increase the difficulty of LFR is easily the worst "solution" - it would completely kill LFR, and LFR would simply become the new normal, meaning no one will queue up for it with strangers. Plenty of semi pug normal groups fail as it is now, with voice comms and clear leadership. The mentality and expectations wont change to meet the new requirements.

I would suggest most players queue up for LFR because A) they can just hit one button, B) The expectations are so low, its very relaxed and C) they get to experience the encounters and content they otherwise would not.

These all equate to the same simplified reason: the barrier for entry is very low. You are suggesting dramatically raising that barrier, and for some reason, think people will just rise to the challenge - they wont.

Sorry but this is a rock hard no from me, just a terrible idea all round.