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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    There's no real rule says he can't. You can't say the Legion didn't bring chaos to the cosmos.
    The way it see it the uberlords isnt exactly an elected position. Its a position the very essence of that primal has. As sargeras is a titan he cant be the essence of the disorger primal.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Sargeras pointedly didn't kill Ulthalesh, though; he imprisoned him within the Harvester, and that only after contending with him for a time necessary to deplete his energies and will according to the Tome of Blighted Implements. Ulthalesh also turned even that to his advantage, growing more and more powerful as the Harvester consumed souls - including that of the powerful Eredar Sataiel. Sargeras didn't have the means to permanently kill the demons, which was the actual purpose behind Mardum as a Plane of Banishment.
    Doesn't chronicle say that after absorbing all the fel energy in Mardum he learned the secrets of destroy demon souls regardless of the plane they're located in? The book implies that while Sargeras might fear the scythe he does posses the means to destroy it, which is why he had Medivh task the dark riders with tracking it down.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    There's no real rule says he can't. You can't say the Legion didn't bring chaos to the cosmos.
    Agreed. And also, even if there were some general rule, it makes perfect sense that Disorder doesn't follow said "rule". It's Disorder; there's no reason to think it must follow any kind of order/organization/rule/structure....

    Far as I can see, there also isn't any good reason to think each has an "uberlord" in the first place, or that something like Disorder can't swap Lords, since it's, you know, Disorder.
    Last edited by Liarparadox; 2020-09-19 at 07:00 PM.

  4. #24
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqthefat View Post
    Doesn't chronicle say that after absorbing all the fel energy in Mardum he learned the secrets of destroy demon souls regardless of the plane they're located in? The book implies that while Sargeras might fear the scythe he does posses the means to destroy it, which is why he had Medivh task the dark riders with tracking it down.
    It does, yes; but Ulthalesh and Sargeras contended with one another before Sargeras destroyed the Plane of Banishment turning it into a scar that offered entry and exit from the Twisting Nether. While destroying Mardum corrupted Sargeras and gave him knowledge of how to permanently destroy demonic souls, he had already created the Deadwind Harvester at this point and thus perversely safeguarded Ulthalesh from his newfound powers. But even still, the fact that Ulthalesh was previously able to contend with a Titan shows that there are very powerful demons in the Twisting Nether, and who knows what else might inhabit that plane since it's not as if we've ever explored it a great deal.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It does, yes; but Ulthalesh and Sargeras contended with one another before Sargeras destroyed the Plane of Banishment turning it into a scar that offered entry and exit from the Twisting Nether. While destroying Mardum corrupted Sargeras and gave him knowledge of how to permanently destroy demonic souls, he had already created the Deadwind Harvester at this point and thus perversely safeguarded Ulthalesh from his newfound powers. But even still, the fact that Ulthalesh was previously able to contend with a Titan shows that there are very powerful demons in the Twisting Nether, and who knows what else might inhabit that plane since it's not as if we've ever explored it a great deal.
    The text doesn't really say that his power matched or even came close to Sargeras power. I don't really see the basis to assume there are demonic creatures stronger than Sargeras based on this. Now it's possible that there are other demons Sargeras hasn't come across, but that would mean we wouldn't know if they would have chosen his side had they encountered him nor what type of power they would wield. Or there aren't any more demons of notable power. Just massive speculation here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    Nah, the Wild Gods go to the Shadowlands when they die just like mortals. I'd say theyre below Elune. And as for the pantheon of Death, it should include the covenant leaders actually. The Winter Queen is supposedly as powerful as a titan
    This isn't entirely true.

    The Wild Gods are part of the Nature section, and Nature is part of the life cosmology. And the center shows what parts of each section overlap, if you look closesly, this chart already accounts for the Wild Gods going into the emerald dream and the Shadowlands. They originate from Nature/Life not from the shadowlands even though they go there when they die to regenerate.

    With that said, it's possible that there are beings that over see the Wild Gods, but we haven't seen any evidence of that yet.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Sargeras pointedly didn't kill Ulthalesh, though; he imprisoned him within the Harvester, and that only after contending with him for a time necessary to deplete his energies and will according to the Tome of Blighted Implements. Ulthalesh also turned even that to his advantage, growing more and more powerful as the Harvester consumed souls - including that of the powerful Eredar Sataiel. Sargeras didn't have the means to permanently kill the demons, which was the actual purpose behind Mardum as a Plane of Banishment.
    he did know how to kill them when he freed them and "killed" ultha. chonicles specifically mentions it
    thats how he pressured them into his service: join him hor hell perma kill them in the twisting nether
    fact is, he was able to kill/catch them all without much effort
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  7. #27
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    The text doesn't really say that his power matched or even came close to Sargeras power. I don't really see the basis to assume there are demonic creatures stronger than Sargeras based on this. Now it's possible that there are other demons Sargeras hasn't come across, but that would mean we wouldn't know if they would have chosen his side had they encountered him nor what type of power they would wield. Or there aren't any more demons of notable power. Just massive speculation here.

    If Sargeras was afraid of it...I think it warrants how strong or formidable Ultaeash is/was. Sargeras is a Titan a Fallen one(Felified). Not much scares him(The Dark Titan/Void Titan does obviously but my point is there's not a lot to harm him). I think if a Titan is afraid of something, its definitely powerful.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    If Sargeras was afraid of it...I think it warrants how strong or formidable Ultaeash is/was. Sargeras is a Titan a Fallen one(Felified). Not much scares him(The Dark Titan/Void Titan does obviously but my point is there's not a lot to harm him). I think if a Titan is afraid of something, its definitely powerful.
    It was also said that Titans sh!t themselves in front of a fully released Old God. And before the narrative was switched to Nathrezim, the Old Gods were the masterminds behind everything wicked in the world of WarCraft.

    Blizzard bend the powerlevels the way that currently suits them.

    Sargeras could/can cut entire planets in half, I very much doubt a single "stick" has the means to bother him to the point to make him "afraid of it".

  9. #29
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    It was also said that Titans sh!t themselves in front of a fully released Old God. And before the narrative was switched to Nathrezim, the Old Gods were the masterminds behind everything wicked in the world of WarCraft.

    Blizzard bend the powerlevels the way that currently suits them.

    Sargeras could/can cut entire planets in half, I very much doubt a single "stick" has the means to bother him to the point to make him "afraid of it".
    Right now Sargeras was afraid of that staff and a Void Titan so we take that as is...your argument doens't work just cause they change things.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    If Sargeras was afraid of it...I think it warrants how strong or formidable Ultaeash is/was. Sargeras is a Titan a Fallen one(Felified). Not much scares him(The Dark Titan/Void Titan does obviously but my point is there's not a lot to harm him). I think if a Titan is afraid of something, its definitely powerful.
    The only thing Sargeras was actually afraid of was the Void Lords taking over a Titan. Other than that, there wasn't any concern from demons. I think we are drawing too much from a simple passage giving some lore on a inconsequential Scythe that has no weight in the game or lore.

  11. #31
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    The text doesn't really say that his power matched or even came close to Sargeras power. I don't really see the basis to assume there are demonic creatures stronger than Sargeras based on this. Now it's possible that there are other demons Sargeras hasn't come across, but that would mean we wouldn't know if they would have chosen his side had they encountered him nor what type of power they would wield. Or there aren't any more demons of notable power. Just massive speculation here.
    It does imply he was able to contend with Sargeras for a time, a feat achieved by a vanishingly small number of individuals - he was so powerful that some of the demons imprisoned in Mardum actually rallied behind him, so it seems evident that he was at least able to challenge Sargeras in some capacity. Demons that Sargeras hasn't come across within the deeper reaches of the Twisting Nether is exactly what I'm referring to, though. It is speculation, but speculation based on existing precedent and the notion that the Nether is largely unexplored territory. The Plane of Death has its own veritable gods, it would seem, why not the deeper realm of Disorder?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    he did know how to kill them when he freed them and "killed" ultha. chonicles specifically mentions it
    thats how he pressured them into his service: join him hor hell perma kill them in the twisting nether
    fact is, he was able to kill/catch them all without much effort
    Ulthalesh isn't mentioned in Chronicle Vol. 1 - feel free to check the index, you won't find him there. As for the timing of when and what happened, it's a bit inconsistent - but *if* Sargeras could kill Ulthalesh, then why didn't he? Why put him within the Harvester where he could continue to plot and scheme, as well as grow more powerful with time?
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It does imply he was able to contend with Sargeras for a time, a feat achieved by a vanishingly small number of individuals -

    Contend however can go many ways. He Contended with Sargeras so much as by not following him, not that it lends to any notion that he was some sort of threat to him. But like you said it's all speculation upon very little lore.

    he was so powerful that some of the demons imprisoned in Mardum actually rallied behind him, so it seems evident that he was at least able to challenge Sargeras in some capacity. Demons that Sargeras hasn't come across within the deeper reaches of the Twisting Nether is exactly what I'm referring to, though. It is speculation, but speculation based on existing precedent and the notion that the Nether is largely unexplored territory. The Plane of Death has its own veritable gods, it would seem, why not the deeper realm of Disorder?
    At least how Chronicles depicted it, there was no order to the demons and fel as whole, it was Sargeras who created the burning legion, which earned their place in the cosmology chart. Prior to Sargeras forming the Burning legion, there was no known organized force of demons. And if they were, they were inconsequential compared to what they became under him. Imo if there is anything outside of that, it wouldn't be demons it would be actual beings made out of fel. But honestly at this time, i don't think there is, but blizzard can make it so.

    Side note.

    Now that Sargeras is out of the picture for the foreseeable future, I can see others rising up to fill that power. Maybe not to the level Sargeras did but in other ways.
    Last edited by tommyhil622; 2020-09-19 at 09:01 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Ulthalesh isn't mentioned in Chronicle Vol. 1 - feel free to check the index, you won't find him there. As for the timing of when and what happened, it's a bit inconsistent - but *if* Sargeras could kill Ulthalesh, then why didn't he? Why put him within the Harvester where he could continue to plot and scheme, as well as grow more powerful with time?
    Wasn't the staff drained when the Champion tried to suck out the corruption off of Sargeras' sword in Silithus? Doesn't that mean that Ulthalesh and every other demon trapped inside are dead?

    When Sargeras shattered Mardum to recruit forces for the Burning Legion, he offered his former prisoners an ultimatum: join him or be cast into oblivion. Most of the demons accepted, but scores refused, rallying around Ulthalesh. In answer to the challenge, Sargeras forged a great felsteel scythe from the fires of Mardum's destruction, and he used it to harvest the souls of the recalcitrant demons, confining them in a new prison. Ulthalesh, strongest of will, was the last to be devoured.
    Sargeras named the scythe Ulthalesh, after the dreadlord who had risen up against him. Ulthalesh's spirit gave the weapon unfathomable strength, but with that strength came a curse, for those who bore Ulthalesh were inevitably consumed by it.
    Seems to me that he could destroy them, he just chose to use them to empower a weapon, instead. And why would he destroy weapon as powerful as this one?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It does imply he was able to contend with Sargeras for a time, a feat achieved by a vanishingly small number of individuals - he was so powerful that some of the demons imprisoned in Mardum actually rallied behind him, so it seems evident that he was at least able to challenge Sargeras in some capacity. Demons that Sargeras hasn't come across within the deeper reaches of the Twisting Nether is exactly what I'm referring to, though. It is speculation, but speculation based on existing precedent and the notion that the Nether is largely unexplored territory. The Plane of Death has its own veritable gods, it would seem, why not the deeper realm of Disorder?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ulthalesh isn't mentioned in Chronicle Vol. 1 - feel free to check the index, you won't find him there. As for the timing of when and what happened, it's a bit inconsistent - but *if* Sargeras could kill Ulthalesh, then why didn't he? Why put him within the Harvester where he could continue to plot and scheme, as well as grow more powerful with time?
    to make an example of him? somewhat similar to maw of the dammned? or maybe to make at least some of ulthaleshs great power of use to him? (just some in-lore reasons, the real reason is bc blizz needed lore for the artifact)

    i know ulthalesh wasnt mentioned in the chronicle, but theres no no doubt when it happened. in chronicle its stated that sargeras shattered mardum, then told the demons "alright,i know now that ill have to kill u in the nether. serve me or die"
    and in the ingame book about ulthalesh its said that when he shattered mardum, some demons rallied around ulthalesh after sargeras made his offer. so sargeras imprisoned them in the scythe.
    im not arguing that there are maybe some "fel" lords or powerful demons in the nether, after all i pointed out the book which implied something like that. however, they would have to be much more powerful than ulthalesh
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    Nah, the Wild Gods go to the Shadowlands when they die just like mortals. I'd say theyre below Elune. And as for the pantheon of Death, it should include the covenant leaders actually. The Winter Queen is supposedly as powerful as a titan
    It's nice to have titan-like creatures that aren't the size of titans. ie: winter queen, bastion lady, the primus (who is now mia).

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Right now Sargeras was afraid of that staff and a Void Titan so we take that as is...your argument doens't work just cause they change things.
    Actually, no. Someone (who wrote that book about the artifact) thought that Sargeras is afraid of that staff. The same way that Krasus thought "should the Old Gods open the gates of their prison, even the titan Sargeras would find himself pleading for the peace of death". As we well know by now that is absolute bull. That's just some personal feelings of someone out there.

    As I mentioned above, if we're to trust our eyes, that staff didn't survive a simple interaction with the sword of Sargeras, why would he be scared of it?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    Contend however can go many ways. He Contended with Sargeras so much as by not following him, not that it lends to any notion that he was some sort of threat to him. But like you said it's all speculation upon very little lore.
    Being able to challenge Sargeras is pretty much itself a mark of power. I'm not saying Ulthalesh and Sargeras were equal in terms of power, either; just that Ulthalesh was powerful enough that Sargeras would need to expend true effort to destroy him.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    At least how Chronicles depicted it, there was no order to the demons and fel as whole, it was Sargeras who created the burning legion, which earned their place in the cosmology chart. Prior to Sargeras forming the Burning legion, there was no known organized force of demons. And if they were, they were inconsequential compared to what they became under him. Imo if there is anything outside of that, it wouldn't be demons it would be actual beings made out of fel. But honestly at this time, i don't think there is, but blizzard can make it so.

    Side note.

    Now that Sargeras is out of the picture for the foreseeable future, I can see others rising up to fill that power. Maybe not to the level Sargeras did but in other ways.
    The demons are creatures of chaos, it would make sense that they would have no real organization outside of who has the most power to command loyalty at any given time. The speculation here is that perhaps deep within the Twisting Nether lie demons of power sufficient enough to cloak themselves from Sargeras, or which Sargeras never even found (given his focus on demonic interference in the physical universe). Perhaps none of them individually with the power of Titan, but of power and ability that could be called similar.
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  18. #38
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Now that Sargeras is out of the picture for the foreseeable future, I can see others rising up to fill that power. Maybe not to the level Sargeras did but in other ways.
    Be interesting if there was a non Burning Legion faction of demons doing things for their own personal reasons or perhaps demons that are ancient(As in more old then the ones we all have come to love).



    Actually, no. Someone (who wrote that book about the artifact) thought that Sargeras is afraid of that staff. The same way that Krasus thought "should the Old Gods open the gates of their prison, even the titan Sargeras would find himself pleading for the peace of death". As we well know by now that is absolute bull. That's just some personal feelings of someone out there.

    As I mentioned above, if we're to trust our eyes, that staff didn't survive a simple interaction with the sword of Sargeras, why would he be scared of it?
    Yeah and right now Sargeras being afraid of the staff is current lore so we take it as such. The same way when Krassus's words were believed. I mean Blizzard has done good world building out of a small idea before.
    Last edited by Aeluron Lightsong; 2020-09-19 at 09:12 PM.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    Wasn't the staff drained when the Champion tried to suck out the corruption off of Sargeras' sword in Silithus? Doesn't that mean that Ulthalesh and every other demon trapped inside are dead?
    Maybe, maybe not. Xal'atath survived her blade being drained into the sword, which means Ulthalesh could've as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by UndedoKoleda View Post
    Seems to me that he could destroy them, he just chose to use them to empower a weapon, instead. And why would he destroy weapon as powerful as this one?
    He had already suborned the majority of the demons within Mardum, it seems like a bad idea of give those few who refused his rule a way of ultimately challenging him.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Being able to challenge Sargeras is pretty much itself a mark of power. I'm not saying Ulthalesh and Sargeras were equal in terms of power, either; just that Ulthalesh was powerful enough that Sargeras would need to expend true effort to destroy him.
    Understood, but the true effort I don't agree either, i think he saw it as an opportunity to make a weapon out of him.

    The demons are creatures of chaos, it would make sense that they would have no real organization outside of who has the most power to command loyalty at any given time. The speculation here is that perhaps deep within the Twisting Nether lie demons of power sufficient enough to cloak themselves from Sargeras, or which Sargeras never even found (given his focus on demonic interference in the physical universe). Perhaps none of them individually with the power of Titan, but of power and ability that could be called similar.
    Yes they are creature of chaos, but the chaos part isn't about organization, but to counter the order that's established. So even though the burning legion was an organzed army, they served chaos because they sought to bring destruction to the the order which Sargeras thought was flawed. So them being organized or disorganized has no bearing on them serving the role as agents of chaos.

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