I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Jastall]

The guilds clearing Heroic in 1-2 weeks are not "Heroic" guilds, they are either full fledged Mythic guilds or 'Heroic' guilds that don't have 20 people to do Mythic with. The difficulty isn't balanced around them.

As I often say. Look at how shit the average player is, then realise half of the players are worse.

AOTC has a completion rate of about 30-40% per boss maximum, and yet we've people rambling on about how it's so easy and casual and such. Lots of people on forums or in Mythic guilds tend to live in a bubble that way I find.

The same guilds that blast through Heroic day 1 also blast through M+15 day one anyway.

[Whiskeyjac]

I mean my guild and I farmed neck every patch but okay, it's not really a myth.
most top 200~ guilds usually have neck "requests" before progression started.
Things like "being able to get the secondary damage trait on heroic azerite" or "open the new minor essence" kinda deals.

As the other poster mentioned I was referring to a specific time period of the game. I know first hand that systems like artifact power have greatly increased the time needed to play effectively at higher levels of the game. Especially with how front loaded most of those systems are.

I would like to see challenging content run alongside mythic raiding for the best rewards but the issue with 5 mans is that in order for them to be on the same level of difficulty they need to be tuned to ideal comps. Tuning that tight would make it extremely difficult if not impossible for some classes to realistically compete them without it being a extremely advantageous week or out gearing them by a fair margin.

[Vulgrym]

It's not unusual, in any game, for the hardest difficulty level to provide the biggest reward.

MMOs are a social game, and a significant part of the difficulty that comes with raiding extends beyond the mechanics and to the social aspect of a team that large achieving a common goal.

It's perfectly justifiable to set the loot as incrementally better, especially given how small the delta is.

[Kehego]

I think you missed the 'pre-wod' part there.

because azerite/hoa existed pre wod

you stupid on purpose or by accident?

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As the other poster mentioned I was referring to a specific time period of the game. I know first hand that systems like artifact power have greatly increased the time needed to play effectively at higher levels of the game. Especially with how front loaded most of those systems are.

I would like to see challenging content run alongside mythic raiding for the best rewards but the issue with 5 mans is that in order for them to be on the same level of difficulty they need to be tuned to ideal comps. Tuning that tight would make it extremely difficult if not impossible for some classes to realistically compete them without it being a extremely advantageous week or out gearing them by a fair margin.

again, like you said, its frontloaded.
and no lol, 5 man content will never be comparable difficulty wise, the only thing you can really do is just add damage because at the end of it, it'll *have* to be class ambiguous/agnostic enough that a group of any combination of 12 classes can do it.

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It's not unusual, in any game, for the hardest difficulty level to provide the biggest reward.

MMOs are a social game, and a significant part of the difficulty that comes with raiding extends beyond the mechanics and to the social aspect of a team that large achieving a common goal.

It's perfectly justifiable to set the loot as incrementally better, especially given how small the delta is.

winner winner chicken dinner

[jellmoo]

It's not unusual, in any game, for the hardest difficulty level to provide the biggest reward.

MMOs are a social game, and a significant part of the difficulty that comes with raiding extends beyond the mechanics and to the social aspect of a team that large achieving a common goal.

It's perfectly justifiable to set the loot as incrementally better, especially given how small the delta is.

Except difficulty ≠ complexity. They aren't the same thing. Yes, it is complex to organize a raid and it is certainly a challenge. But it is not a component of in game difficulty.

It's possible to create things that are difficult in different ways have equivalent rewards. I'm not saying the system as it exists now, but a hypothetical system where mythic raiding and M+ handle the difficulty differently, but offer similar rewards. Where one system requires that organization, but also mechanics study and trial and error, where another is based on split second decision making and fighting a timer.

The average DPS in a raid just isn't being challenged the way a Raid Leader is, so having the complexity of a raid setting be the deciding factor that the rewards should be the highest falls a little flat.

[Gorsameth]

because azerite/hoa existed pre wod

you stupid on purpose or by accident?

Ah you missed that the conversation was about how pre-legion/BfA these grind systems that 'force' you to play the game to keep up didn't exist and how it is good that SL's appears to be toning those grinds down, allowing raiders to play at a high level without requiring constant play all the time.
That's ok, confusing happens sometimes. Apology accepted.

[Vulgrym]

Ah you missed that the conversation was about how pre-legion/BfA these grind systems that 'force' you to play the game to keep up didn't exist and how it is good that SL's appears to be toning those grinds down, allowing raiders to play at a high level without requiring constant play all the time.
That's ok, confusing happens sometimes. Apology accepted.

If you read more carefully, you'll also notice that I didn't mention uncapped grinding at all. For the record, I think the systems these past 3 expansions have been awful. Nobody I know in the raiding community enjoys the nature of the grind that Blizzard has implemented. Not sure how you confused that with loot rewards being tied to easy/hard content, but apology accepted for your misguided smugness

As for the comment above yours, I'm well aware that difficulty and complexity are distinct. The net of that equation remains that organized raiding is the 'harder' (or whatever you want to call the result of the overall equation). As long as Blizzard allows players to use gear from one form of content in another, they'll need to find a way to balance those rewards accordingly. I think an entirely new system would be fine, I'm just saying the SL approach makes more sense than what currently exists.

[kaminaris]

The guilds clearing Heroic in 1-2 weeks are not "Heroic" guilds, they are either full fledged Mythic guilds or 'Heroic' guilds that don't have 20 people to do Mythic with. The difficulty isn't balanced around them.

As I often say. Look at how shit the average player is, then realise half of the players are worse.

Pug is doing heroic first week so your argument is invalid

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What world do you live in? M+ is a thing, but please enlighten me on how much fun world quests are so I can slap you down. The best gear should always come from the hardest content, if you're not willing to invest time and effort, then you shouldn't be rewarded to the same degree as people who do/are.

Then it should come form M+ because as infinitely scalable content it will become impossible at some point. If you are not willing to invest time trying to do equivalent of 32 current keys you shouldn't be rewarded with best gear, as simple as that.

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a 15 was a joke by the first month of the season tbh.

Go ahead and do 32, lets see how it goes.

[Hyeonh]

Raiding is usually the end part of MMO games, every path usually leads up to it. The best gear traditionally came from raiding for pve. You can play the game without raiding, but you won't be getting the best equipment the game has to offer if you don't put the time and effort aside for it. Personally I'm not for having Mythic dungeon gear overtaking current raid gear, and i'm less thrilled about it overtaking pvp gear.

[kaminaris]

As for the comment above yours, I'm well aware that difficulty and complexity are distinct. The net of that equation remains that organized raiding is the 'harder' (or whatever you want to call the result of the overall equation). As long as Blizzard allows players to use gear from one form of content in another, they'll need to find a way to balance those rewards accordingly. I think an entirely new system would be fine, I'm just saying the SL approach makes more sense than what currently exists.

Except it really doesn't make sense. It effectively cuts off M+ as a gearing path because of various things like: loot being more rare, loot from dungeon itself being garbo, loot from weekly chest not needing M+, not being able to use coins (using coin in M+ is waste of coin). There is literally disadvantage on every aspect compared to raiders.

[tomten]

There is literally disadvantage on every aspect compared to raiders.

And thats exactly like it should be?
Why should you get equal (or in your words more) for doing less?
And to your comment try M+ 32... Has no meaning whatsoever because gear stops being rewarded at 14 in SL, which means, you only push high keys because you enjoy it and then you dont need gear for that. At best, some cosmetic reward or an achievement should be enough, because you're doing what you enjoy anyhow?

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Where one system requires that organization, but also mechanics study and trial and error, where another is based on split second decision making and fighting a timer.

You have never raided high level, have you? xD

[Heladys]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

How can you leave behind something that is true?

[Bigbazz]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

During Legion M+ had often better rewards than raiding, while also offering infinite drops, that continued in BFA though it wasn't as bad. There is a sweet spot, the sweet spot should always have raids as the best gear because they require much more organisation and can only be done once a week.

Im not saying SL is the sweet spot, but I'm not going to be crying about it if M+ falls into a niche bonus you can safely ignore. M+/AP actually killed my guild in Legion, players who had been going since 2005 no longer able to keep up because M+ farming was effectively mandatory and they had limited play time, jobs, kids. Prior to Legion you could raid log and not be at a disadvantage. M+ AP farming and infinite gearing, legendaries, the boss tuning based on that and social pressures around everything meant in Legion you really needed to be online every day doing something to keep creeping forward.

Not saying one way is necessarily better than the other, but M+ drastically changed the raiding game.

[Thereaperszone]

With the M+ cache offering multiple choices & mythic item level loot, in the long run, M+ will result in a better gearset than it currently does as you're a lot more likely to find something useful in your cache each week.



Well fun is the best reason. Gear is a tool, so honestly, if these changes are enough to put people off doing certain content then they're just not all that into the content in the first place, which is the real discussion to be had here.

Na what happens when you run 10 mythic+ with 0 loot or more the 1 item drop is stupid

[jellmoo]

During Legion M+ had often better rewards than raiding, while also offering infinite drops, that continued in BFA though it wasn't as bad. There is a sweet spot, the sweet spot should always have raids as the best gear because they require much more organisation and can only be done once a week.

I fundamentally disagree with the part I bolded. The complexity of organizing a group of people really shouldn't be the deciding factor about where the best gear drops. The game should be rewarding high levels of skill in the game itself, not project management. Plus, it's not like it's every raid member that is engaged in that complexity. The average DPS player is not engaged in that additional complexity at all.

Im not saying SL is the sweet spot, but I'm not going to be crying about it if M+ falls into a niche bonus you can safely ignore. M+/AP actually killed my guild in Legion, players who had been going since 2005 no longer able to keep up because M+ farming was effectively mandatory and they had limited play time, jobs, kids. Prior to Legion you could raid log and not be at a disadvantage. M+ AP farming and infinite gearing, legendaries, the boss tuning based on that and social pressures around everything meant in Legion you really needed to be online every day doing something to keep creeping forward.

Not saying one way is necessarily better than the other, but M+ drastically changed the raiding game.

I do agree with a good chunk of what you're saying. People should not feel forced to throw all their time at the game. Nor do I support M+ being given Raid level gear with the system as it exists.

But, I do believe that multiple paths for the best gear should be available. It shouldn't be locked to a single content type. Multiple paths can be difficult, in different ways, and reward similar gear. It is more than possible to design a reward system that allows players to hit the content they prefer and feel that the content is worthwhile and they are on track to have the gear rewards they want.

[Bigbazz]

I fundamentally disagree with the part I bolded. The complexity of organizing a group of people really shouldn't be the deciding factor about where the best gear drops. The game should be rewarding high levels of skill in the game itself, not project management. Plus, it's not like it's every raid member that is engaged in that complexity. The average DPS player is not engaged in that additional complexity at all..

I don't really think that WoW is at it's best when skill or complexity is the main defining factor, not at all. One could argue that the highest levels of M+ offer the highest level of difficulty, the most amount of knowledge required from the player because in order to be successful isn't just about basic skill at the game, it's about having intimate knowledge about every mob, every pull, every mechanic, in every dungeon.

While that kinda gameplay is fine, I liked it better as a niche gameplay like when it existed as challenge modes, rewarding cosmetics, have it like how Gladiators earn their mounts each season. Of course a subjective view but I think WoW is probably too difficult now and suffers as a result, I think the spirit of raiding is overcoming challenges as a large team, big social environment. It has instead kinda turned into this almost e-sport level of gaming where you have professional level players putting in full time hours and effectively dedicating their lives to the game, while countless genuinely good guilds just die left and right with no hope in hell until it's either nerfed or through heavy gear inflation.

So I think that raiding should drop the best gear, but I also think raiding should not be balanced around professional level gaming, Mythic raiding could use being a good bit easier (think somewhere between WOD raiding and EN Mythic), I dunno how you make a good world first around that but I know so many players who don't bother anymore just because the effort required isn't worth it.. Hell I'm one of them, it's like do you want to play videogames or have a career?

[Whiskeyjac]

I fundamentally disagree with the part I bolded. The complexity of organizing a group of people really shouldn't be the deciding factor about where the best gear drops. The game should be rewarding high levels of skill in the game itself, not project management. Plus, it's not like it's every raid member that is engaged in that complexity. The average DPS player is not engaged in that additional complexity at all.



I do agree with a good chunk of what you're saying. People should not feel forced to throw all their time at the game. Nor do I support M+ being given Raid level gear with the system as it exists.

But, I do believe that multiple paths for the best gear should be available. It shouldn't be locked to a single content type. Multiple paths can be difficult, in different ways, and reward similar gear. It is more than possible to design a reward system that allows players to hit the content they prefer and feel that the content is worthwhile and they are on track to have the gear rewards they want.

I think the issue comes back to comps though... If you make 5 mans on par with mythic raiding you would have to create some sense of parity between the difficulties. That would mean some classes wouldn't be able to compete in 5 mans at all (more or less look at mythic 25 currently).

I think right now it is... alright? I am not really sure how you can have multiple paths in wow even with content like the mage tower you have classes that just breeze through content and others that struggle. While I don't know if raiding is the best... its the best we have seen so far.

[razorpax]

i mean this lets mythic plus players not have to worry about scrub raiders in their dungeons

it lets raiders not really worry about having to farm mythic plus

its almost like it separates two groups that bitch about eachother

honestly i think its a good change but its only made to stop loot trading. Dungeon runners will still get mythic quality once a week and the difference is 3 ilvls

3ilvls...trust me you and a vast vast majority of players are in no way effected by this

[Lolites]

we did 10's and 11s. you just had to actually pay attention in the 9 and then you did the ol key delete trick in the 10/11 and boom, keys for your entire guild

ok...so... you didnt do 15s...
which was what my previous comment was all about, that doing +15 first week of expansion/patch is not something most people would call "joke"

[HolyCowBro]

What we need is raid+

Affixes from Mythic+ apply to raid as well. The format is 10 man with every 3 bosses rewarding a chest for clearing it in a set time. You receive a key for each wing that you clear in time.