Level squish in future expansions

[Soeroah]

They *implied* it when they said after Shadowlands a new player would go through Exiles Reach then the Shadowlands expansion and then whatever the new expansion is, instead of doing BfA first, but they've never outright said there would be a squish.

[Sluvs]

They will most likely add 10 more levels and previous expansions level you up through 1-60 now.

The level squish serves a purpose, to make levels more meaningful and to stop the number from getting high. With that in mind, the squish is meaningless if they don't increase the level cap. They did the squish, IMHO, in order to make the increases easier to swallow. There is a reason we saw 5 level increases and cata and MoP and did not see them later.

1. They increase 5 levels in order to control the level cap.It was getting ridiculous.
2. BUT, five levels increases were proven to feel bad for the Playerbase, they said as much.

So if they learned anything from past lessons, they will just get to 100 and squish it again. But at that point, WoW will be at his 24th anniversary? Who knows what will happen by then. I fully expected WoW to start dying after MoP, but it still brings a lot of money for Blizzard. I would not be surprised if it lasted 10+ years at this point.

Now, for the health of the game, it might be better if they squished every expansion, but I think this will not go down well with a lot of players. So they might not want to risk it. Because, it LOOKS like, people that hate the squish get really aggravated when you are downgraded, but people that like it, would not mind the increase of the level cap as much.

That being said, they might not have made up their minds about it and are watching the discourse to decide what happens next. In the end, who knows, the only thing that is clear to me is that they expect WoW to last for at least 3 more expansions, otherwise they would not have done this.

Unrelated, but it's funny to see the people now clinging to the RPG element.

[RemasteredClassic]

It does seem like they're stuck in this eternal cycle of expansion and squishing. A metaphor for the game itself, really.

They could just treat expansions as glorified patches instead with a focus on gear based / renown based / build your own talent tree with dropped gem like systems instead of squishing levels. The entire game could be made to feel relevant if designed with gear / player power progression as opposed to player level progression.

[NineSpine]

NONE of my math used any borrowed power system, squish, or anything of the like (all of which exacerbated it yes, but it wasn't required for it). It's literally just the combat ratings going from 17.62 rating per 1% crit to 72 rating per 1% crit (~4x as much rating required). The math would have applied the same squish or no, just the raw numbers would be about 20x as big.

This has happened every single expansion to various degrees. The only question is does your gain in stats offset this rating reduction. Maybe it did upto cataclysm, but not from MoP on. But the primary reason for that is because the rating changes weren't as extreme (or in the case of Cataclysm, the massive increase in primary stats from leveling).
60 -> 70 required 58% more rating
70 -> 80 required 108% more rating
80 -> 85 required 291% more rating
85 -> 90 required 235% more rating
90 -> 100 required 378% more rating
100 -> 110 required 264% more rating
110 -> 120 required 308% more rating.

Does the significant increase in borrowed power make it more extreme? Yeah of course. But power is still "reset" every expansion. A higher level character in the same gear will always* do less damage than a lower level character until the "old expansion damage bonus" kicks in.

* unless leveling grants massive amounts of primary stats like in Cataclysm.

- - - Updated - - -

Straight up wrong.

Level squish method
Level 60 pre-squish character -> level 50 post squish character -> level 60 post squish character
50% crit before the squish -> 50% crit after the squish -> 16% crit

Your method:
Level 60 pre-squish character -> level 60 post squish character
50% crit before the squish -> 16% crit after the squish

The first method is changed across the next 10 levels, yours is done instantly. Thus the first method is objectively less jarring.

You are acting like Blizzard can’t do things like dynamically scale the effects down as you complete the new expansions introduction content. There are myriad ways around this that don’t require taking levels away.

[Omedon]

I don't feel like people would take their level being knocked back EVERY expansion as a good thing

Because everyone quit after the first stat squish. And the second. This standardizing squish form 120 to 50 is potentially systemic and lingering. Level 61 does not fit in the game, ever again, with the effort they're taking here to establish the chromie time bracket and its standardized leveling pace with almost zero modifiers remaining. The modularity of WoW expansions as they've evolved fits perfectly into an eternal 60 cap.

Once we painlessly let the precedent happen at 9.0 (and of course we will), after two prior number squishes, it's precedent. The game's approachability to new players with a permanent 60 cap is vastly more important than "I climbed 120 levels now you must too," and that's really all anyone opposing this sort of change is trying to maintain.

And let's be real: the level cap, whatever it is, is a guarantee for all players. It's not a measuring stick or an accomplishment, and it can't ever be allowed to be that ever again because all the development is at the level cap. It might as well be a nostalgically relevant 60.

[leggomydairy]

I remember reading a blue post or an interview where Blizzard said that future expansions will work like Shadowlands according to the level squish and max level:

Every new expansion we get set back to level 50 and the new max level is again level 60.

Unfortunately I can't find this blue post or interview anymore.
Can someome please help me?

Yeah they never said this it’s just been speculation by the fandom.
And if they did do this it would be stupid as hell. We level to 60 every expansion just to be sent back to 50 and forced to relevel to 60 in another new expansion? No. Fuck that. This squish makes sense. A squish every expansion? Nope.

[Onikaroshi]

NONE of my math used any borrowed power system, squish, or anything of the like (all of which exacerbated it yes, but it wasn't required for it). It's literally just the combat ratings going from 17.62 rating per 1% crit to 72 rating per 1% crit (~4x as much rating required). The math would have applied the same squish or no, just the raw numbers would be about 20x as big.

This has happened every single expansion to various degrees. The only question is does your gain in stats offset this rating reduction. Maybe it did upto cataclysm, but not from MoP on. But the primary reason for that is because the rating changes weren't as extreme (or in the case of Cataclysm, the massive increase in primary stats from leveling).
60 -> 70 required 58% more rating
70 -> 80 required 108% more rating
80 -> 85 required 291% more rating
85 -> 90 required 235% more rating
90 -> 100 required 378% more rating
100 -> 110 required 264% more rating
110 -> 120 required 308% more rating.

Does the significant increase in borrowed power make it more extreme? Yeah of course. But power is still "reset" every expansion. A higher level character in the same gear will always* do less damage than a lower level character until the "old expansion damage bonus" kicks in.

* unless leveling grants massive amounts of primary stats like in Cataclysm.

- - - Updated - - -

Straight up wrong.

Level squish method
Level 60 pre-squish character -> level 50 post squish character -> level 60 post squish character
50% crit before the squish -> 50% crit after the squish -> 16% crit

Your method:
Level 60 pre-squish character -> level 60 post squish character
50% crit before the squish -> 16% crit after the squish

The first method is changed across the next 10 levels, yours is done instantly. Thus the first method is objectively less jarring.

Except you did get more powerful while leveing, soooooo

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Because everyone quit after the first stat squish. And the second. This standardizing squish form 120 to 50 is potentially systemic and lingering. Level 61 does not fit in the game, ever again, with the effort they're taking here to establish the chromie time bracket and its standardized leveling pace with almost zero modifiers remaining. The modularity of WoW expansions as they've evolved fits perfectly into an eternal 60 cap.

Once we painlessly let the precedent happen at 9.0 (and of course we will), after two prior number squishes, it's precedent. The game's approachability to new players with a permanent 60 cap is vastly more important than "I climbed 120 levels now you must too," and that's really all anyone opposing this sort of change is trying to maintain.

And let's be real: the level cap, whatever it is, is a guarantee for all players. It's not a measuring stick or an accomplishment, and it can't ever be allowed to be that ever again because all the development is at the level cap. It might as well be a nostalgically relevant 60.

I never said it was an accomplishment, but that doesn't make it NOT a stupid idea, part of rpgs is progression.

[ShmooDude]

You are acting like Blizzard can’t do things like dynamically scale the effects down as you complete the new expansions introduction content. There are myriad ways around this that don’t require taking levels away.

Sooo, basically what we have now, except the 60 on your portrait stays a 60 the whole time instead of going back down to 50 and raising back up again to 60. Got it....

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't think a whole "no more levels" will have good response as going back to the level 60 max. I think thats taking too much RPG(You level up in RPGS and yeah yeah I know it seems dumb but I understnad the concern).

[NineSpine]

Sooo, basically what we have now, except the 60 on your portrait stays a 60 the whole time instead of going back down to 50 and raising back up again to 60. Got it....

Yes because losing 10 levels every expansion will always feel bad. Really bad.

This is the sort of situation where you’ve convinced yourself because of headmath that it “makes sense” but that’s not how game design works. How something feels matters more than anything, and logging in one day and being set back 10 levels to where you were two years ago feels bad.

[ro9ue]

Ideally they'll go the ESO route and just do champion points after level 60 and hard cap levels there forever.

[Omedon]

I never said it was an accomplishment, but that doesn't make it NOT a stupid idea, part of rpgs is progression.

And WoW's progression has been season-based with soft resets every 6 months and further reset by expansions every two years for yeeeears now, as a necessity of "new and returning player" approachability. On purpose. As it stands, 110 didn't mean jack squat when BFA dropped, and one expansion's 60 might as well be the next prepatch's 50 every 2 years.

I get that you don't like it. I'm just seeing how nigh inevitable this appears to me. I can't call it a lock, but it wouldn't surprise me at all, and would bother me even less, speaking for me.

[ShmooDude]

Except you did get more powerful while leveing, soooooo

Upto cataclysm? Sure, after that, no way.

[Onikaroshi]

And WoW's progression has been season-based with soft resets every 6 months and further reset by expansions every two years for yeeeears now, as a necessity of "new and returning player" approachability. On purpose. As it stands, 110 didn't mean jack squat when BFA dropped, and one expansion's 60 might as well be the next prepatch's 50 every 2 years.

I get that you don't like it. I'm just seeing how nigh inevitable this appears to me. I can't call it a lock, but it wouldn't surprise me at all, and would bother me even less, speaking for me.

I mean, those soft resets don't reset your actual player progession, I didn't get weaker the minute 8.2 or 8.3 launched, i just had further progression to do.

- - - Updated - - -

Upto cataclysm? Sure, after that, no way.

mop too, after that though the fuckery started.

[ShmooDude]

Yes because losing 10 levels every expansion will always feel bad. Really bad.

This is the sort of situation where you’ve convinced yourself because of headmath that it “makes sense” but that’s not how game design works. How something feels matters more than anything, and logging in one day and being set back 10 levels to where you were two years ago feels bad.

How about if we we change how "level" is displayed, obfuscating it a bit. Levels and XP values are no longer displayed, all you have is your XP bar which only shows as a percent of max level.

Before Shadowlands, your bar is full. When Shadowlands launches, you're now at 80%. Would that still "feel" really bad? Maybe it would for you, I can't say since losing levels doesn't bother me in the first place.

I've always been pro-squish, ever since they announced the first one. I much prefer dealing with small numbers than large ones (not necessarily relevant for the level squish, but is for the stat squish so we're not dealing with 9+ digit numbers).

[NineSpine]

How about if we we change how "level" is displayed, obfuscating it a bit. Levels and XP values are no longer displayed, all you have is your XP bar which only shows as a percent of max level.

Before Shadowlands, your bar is full. When Shadowlands launches, you're now at 80%. Would that still "feel" really bad? Maybe it would for you, I can't say since losing levels doesn't bother me in the first place.

I've always been pro-squish, ever since they announced the first one. I much prefer dealing with small numbers than large ones (not necessarily relevant for the level squish, but is for the stat squish so we're not dealing with 9+ digit numbers).

When designing games, we make systems in accordance with identifying a problem and then coming up with solutions. So, what’s the problem here?

The problem is secondary stat scaling between expansions.

Already we can see that this is a fairly esoteric math problem, and it only really matters for a short time when expansions change.

Next we come up with solutions. We want the cleanest and most elegant solution possible. Your idea is to move their level back to where it was two years ago.

So somehow we have gotten from a fairly small, relatively easy to fix issue that isn’t really perceptible except in a small window once in awhile... to solving that with taking levels away from players every two years, including a massive number of players who don’t really think about how secondary stat scaling works and will just log in one day and see themselves 10 less levels.

Your solution has all the hallmarks of bad design. It is bigger than the problem it’s supposed to solve. Its difficult to communicate to players who aren’t reading WoW news what happened. It intrinsically feels bad to a lot of people. It’s clunky and obtuse.

You always run into problems when you try to solve an under-the-hood math problem with a clunky player-visible system.

[PaladinBash]

Every expansion? I doubt it. A few expansions from now? I'd imagine so. Bear in mind that's like 6 years from now so who fucking knows.

[tmamass]

its only logic to do so. so every xpac is in the 10-50 bracket except the new one.
shame though as that means another rp aspect gone.... I would rather level to 200+ then to 60 every time....

[ShmooDude]

When designing games, we make systems in accordance with identifying a problem and then coming up with solutions. So, what’s the problem here?

The problem is secondary stat scaling between expansions.

Already we can see that this is a fairly esoteric math problem, and it only really matters for a short time when expansions change.

Next we come up with solutions. We want the cleanest and most elegant solution possible. Your idea is to move their level back to where it was two years ago.

So somehow we have gotten from a fairly small, relatively easy to fix issue that isn’t really perceptible except in a small window once in awhile... to solving that with taking levels away from players every two years, including a massive number of players who don’t really think about how secondary stat scaling works and will just log in one day and see themselves 10 less levels.

Your solution has all the hallmarks of bad design. It is bigger than the problem it’s supposed to solve. Its difficult to communicate to players who aren’t reading WoW news what happened. It intrinsically feels bad to a lot of people. It’s clunky and obtuse.

You always run into problems when you try to solve an under-the-hood math problem with a clunky player-visible system.

It's not my solution, it was a hypothetical to try to figure out WHY losing 10 arbitrary levels feels bad, and if changing the window dressing so to speak changes how you feel about it (which you didn't answer). That's not actually what I would design.

Second, the secondary rating correction is not the only problem. Another problem is the leveling flow. The primary reason we're having this leveling squish is to fix the leveling flow. It allows you to level using only 2 expansions. One "obsolete" expansion and the current one. I highly doubt they're going to throw that all away for whatever comes after Shadowlands. If we simply change the "obsolete" expansions from 10-50 to 10-60, this means they have to redo what level you earn your abilities at or the leveling flow changes (even if the time to level does not). If we don't, then we're now leveling in 3 expansion (and 4... then 5... and then we're back to where we started).

There's also the large number problem. Keeping numbers at a reasonable level for readability. Smaller numbers are more digestible and without stat squishes they get unwieldy rather quickly. Now you can disagree with this point, but I'm reasonably sure Blizzard agrees with me or they wouldn't be on their third stat squish. When everyone says "just abbreviate" they tend to forget about one key point. 1,234 vs 1,234k is easier to distinguish than 1,234k vs 1,234m by the virtue of the first being the absence of any letter vs the presence of a letter rather than having to differentiate 2 letters. Just play endgame Diablo 3 with abbreviated damage numbers on for a bit and you'll see what I mean.

So even if we did your "behind the scenes" leveling, you haven't solved the large number problem. That's why, to me, it makes the most sense just to go full reset every expansion and be done with it. But then again, that's always been my preference even before I knew the level squish was a thing, this just simplifies it because now we don't have to worry about adjusting the leveling scale ever again.

EDIT: Also, if we're not actually "leveling" as you suggest, what happens next expansion.

Player A "leveled" through shadowlands and had his ratings adjusted.
Player B didn't.

What happens when they both start questing in the next expansion?

[Squigglyo]

If they set everything up properly, it shouldnt be hard for them to squish again without even showing it.


Shadowlands:
Every xpac: 10 to 50.
Shadowlands 51 to 60

Next xpac
Every xpac: 10 to 60
Current: 61 to 70


All they would need to do is just slightly alter their math and every expansion could be from 10 to 60 instead of 10 to 50.
Effectively, this would act like a level squish every expansion while visually not appearing so.