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  1. #501
    Immortal Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    I don't really think that WoW is at it's best when skill or complexity is the main defining factor, not at all. One could argue that the highest levels of M+ offer the highest level of difficulty, the most amount of knowledge required from the player because in order to be successful isn't just about basic skill at the game, it's about having intimate knowledge about every mob, every pull, every mechanic, in every dungeon.

    While that kinda gameplay is fine, I liked it better as a niche gameplay like when it existed as challenge modes, rewarding cosmetics, have it like how Gladiators earn their mounts each season. Of course a subjective view but I think WoW is probably too difficult now and suffers as a result, I think the spirit of raiding is overcoming challenges as a large team, big social environment. It has instead kinda turned into this almost e-sport level of gaming where you have professional level players putting in full time hours and effectively dedicating their lives to the game, while countless genuinely good guilds just die left and right with no hope in hell until it's either nerfed or through heavy gear inflation.

    So I think that raiding should drop the best gear, but I also think raiding should not be balanced around professional level gaming, Mythic raiding could use being a good bit easier (think somewhere between WOD raiding and EN Mythic), I dunno how you make a good world first around that but I know so many players who don't bother anymore just because the effort required isn't worth it.. Hell I'm one of them, it's like do you want to play videogames or have a career?
    This is so true. Blizzard has kind of backed themselves into a corner with their design. Maybe these changes will help. I always thought when they removed Challenge modes and announced M+ they would stick to their guns as well. It originally was supposed to be a hard dungeon with a very modest timer (60 minutes) or something most groups would never hit. So you could sit down and strategize and what not until you either gave up or completed the dungeon. But late in Legion Beta they redesigned it back to be more like challenge modes with extremely tight timers. I really liked the idea of a good challenge on basically a nonexistent timer but without gear scaling down. Like raids but in a 5 man format.

    I don't see them revisiting that idea again though.
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  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    ok...so... you didnt do 15s...
    which was what my previous comment was all about, that doing +15 first week of expansion/patch is not something most people would call "joke"
    noone did a 15 the first week of bfa when the loot cap was 10
    people did 10's 11's

    jesus

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    This is so true. Blizzard has kind of backed themselves into a corner with their design. Maybe these changes will help. I always thought when they removed Challenge modes and announced M+ they would stick to their guns as well. It originally was supposed to be a hard dungeon with a very modest timer (60 minutes) or something most groups would never hit. So you could sit down and strategize and what not until you either gave up or completed the dungeon. But late in Legion Beta they redesigned it back to be more like challenge modes with extremely tight timers. I really liked the idea of a good challenge on basically a nonexistent timer but without gear scaling down. Like raids but in a 5 man format.

    I don't see them revisiting that idea again though.
    ya cus it was a dumb idea

    and they had mythic 5mans in wod where 5mans dropped relevant gear and they were pretty successful, lockout sucked tho

  3. #503
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by united View Post
    Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?
    You don't turn a neckbeard into a rational person just like that, unfortunately. Ion is no exception.
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  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    noone did a 15 the first week of bfa
    im sorry, im getting more confused by the minute...
    i said, contrary to guy i quoted, that first week of expansion they did not do +15 and even if so, its not something people would consider easy enough to call joke, that was my whole point

    you first quote me to tell me you did not do +15 the first week, and then that nobody did them... which was kind of what i was saying... so what the hell was the point of your comments?! to confirm i was right? bcs you kinda formulated it as if i was wrong, but said pretty much what i said...

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    You don't turn a neckbeard into a rational person just like that, unfortunately. Ion is no exception.
    Okay so by your logic anyone who raids is a neckbeard, and someone who doesnt raid is a 'rational person'.

    Why do you generalize like that? I dont understand your reasoning, could you elaborate a little?

  6. #506
    Glad we didn't.

  7. #507
    I'm glad it's back. I'm not a mythic raider but feel mythic raiding should be the best gear you can get. You don't have to "raid all the time" to have fun in the game. You just won't have the best gear in the game or it may just take you a little longer to get. M+ vault options still yield mythic raiding ilevel, cept the last two bosses in the raid. That means you will still be able to gear your toon out over the course of time by doing the content you want. Blizz made a mistake by giving all these handouts and consolation prizes ,via too much gear, and now like a child that's been given junk food for years you all are fighting back the fruit/veggies, making gear more valuable by limiting it,which is ultimately better for you and the game. Now maybe when you get a piece of gear you will actually remember what you got because you worked for it like people did in vanilla/BC.
    Last edited by Sarkli83; 2020-09-20 at 12:53 PM.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    im sorry, im getting more confused by the minute...
    i said, contrary to guy i quoted, that first week of expansion they did not do +15 and even if so, its not something people would consider easy enough to call joke, that was my whole point

    you first quote me to tell me you did not do +15 the first week, and then that nobody did them... which was kind of what i was saying... so what the hell was the point of your comments?! to confirm i was right? bcs you kinda formulated it as if i was wrong, but said pretty much what i said...
    The point that i was getting across is that people were doing the content for the max chest reward from week 1. Dassit.

    10/15 doesn't matter. anything past the reward cap is just icing on top.
    People carry high keys season to season for max reward, people grind to 10/11 first week for max reward.

    That's why i specifically mentioned key deletion to generate more 10/11 keys to further populate the guild with more keys/gearing options

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    The point that i was getting across is that people were doing the content for the max chest reward from week 1. Dassit.

    10/15 doesn't matter. anything past the reward cap is just icing on top.
    People carry high keys season to season for max reward, people grind to 10/11 first week for max reward.

    That's why i specifically mentioned key deletion to generate more 10/11 keys to further populate the guild with more keys/gearing options
    ofc key level matters when the whole debate you joined in was if key lvl 15 is easy or not at season begining...
    not if it gives best reward or anything else, i never mentioned reward at all, bcs that was completely off topic in that discusion, which was about difficulty...

    my whole point as i mentioned was doing +15 was not piss easy first week, and we kind of know that, as world first +15 in time in BFA happened 11days after opening of season... or you think worlds best players, other than those who actualy did it next week despite no reward, didnt bother first week bcs there was no reward?

    i mean you are not wrong about gear cap being at +10 in the begining of expansion, it just have nothing to do with what we debated, which was +15 not being "joke" difficulty at that time...

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    ofc key level matters when the whole debate you joined in was if key lvl 15 is easy or not at season begining...
    not if it gives best reward or anything else, i never mentioned reward at all, bcs that was completely off topic in that discusion, which was about difficulty...

    my whole point as i mentioned was doing +15 was not piss easy first week, and we kind of know that, as world first +15 in time in BFA happened 11days after opening of season... or you think worlds best players, other than those who actualy did it next week despite no reward, didnt bother first week bcs there was no reward?

    i mean you are not wrong about gear cap being at +10 in the begining of expansion, it just have nothing to do with what we debated, which was +15 not being "joke" difficulty at that time...
    Yes they 100% didn't do it first week because M+ didn't give loot past a certain itemlevel in the first week.
    Week 2 increased the cap to 370 so they completed it that week after they geared further.

    Not saying that it's a skill issue, its a mechanical issue. Also iirc the first week of BFA M+ was like super punishing to healers so it def wasn't a push week
    Last edited by Kehego; 2020-09-20 at 02:36 PM.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Yes they 100% didn't do it first week because M+ didn't give loot past a certain itemlevel in the first week.
    Week 2 increased the cap to 370 so they completed it that week after they geared further.
    so i said people werent doing +15 first week and you try do argue with me by saying they DIDNT do it bcs they did not have good enough gear...
    you do realise your argument is not going against mine, but actualy supports it, right? so you obviously dont even know what you are arguing about... what a pointless attempt at argument...

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    so i said people werent doing +15 first week and you try do argue with me by saying they DIDNT do it bcs they did not have good enough gear...
    you do realise your argument is not going against mine, but actualy supports it, right? so you obviously dont even know what you are arguing about... what a pointless attempt at argument...
    Lol, you're completely missing the point because a 15 in the first week is pointless and that's why there was no rush to do it. Was it possible? probably. Did it make sense to push? Nope, because at that level in the first week you had to do a lot of chores and sitting down and pushing a key was pointless.

    first week, people did itemlevel cap and then leveled their secondary/tertiary character and did the same. No progression oriented player left the first week of bfa without doing every m0 for azzy on whichever toons they were playing (usually 2-3)

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Yes they 100% didn't do it first week because M+ didn't give loot past a certain itemlevel in the first week.
    Week 2 increased the cap to 370 so they completed it that week after they geared further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kehego View Post
    Lol, you're completely missing the point because a 15 in the first week is pointless and that's why there was no rush to do it. Was it possible? probably. Did it make sense to push? Nope, because at that level in the first week you had to do a lot of chores and sitting down and pushing a key was pointless.

    first week, people did itemlevel cap and then leveled their secondary/tertiary character and did the same. No progression oriented player left the first week of bfa without doing every m0 for azzy on whichever toons they were playing (usually 2-3)
    No, no, you have no idea what you're speaking about. There was a prestige to timing the first +15 in the world (and for the smaller fish - realm first +15, which was a Feats of Strength achievement). For a large chunk of high rated M+ players. You only think it was pointless because clearly you lived in your own bubble.

    1. BfA M+ was unlocked on September 4th, 2018. The gear was capped, as usual in the heroic week.
    2. World first +15 Atal'Dazar was timed on September 9th (video here), with ilvl 350-357 gear (and 30 sec below the timer). Next day they also timed +15 Freehold (5min30sec below the timer).
    3. Mythic raids opened on September 11. This is also when the obtainable item level was increased beyond ilvl 355.
    Last edited by ID811717; 2020-09-20 at 04:34 PM.

  14. #514
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    Okay so by your logic anyone who raids is a neckbeard, and someone who doesnt raid is a 'rational person'.
    NO. And how on Earth did you jump to that conclusion? O_o

    Quote Originally Posted by Vidhjerta View Post
    I dont understand your reasoning, could you elaborate a little?
    You should have started with that sentence, I would be happy to oblige

    So, WoW was run for a long time (starting with vanilla WoW) by hardcore dudes, some of them coming from Everquest (Furore and Tigole, just to name those two).

    These people design the game around what appeals to them, namely raiding, sinking huge sums of money (and designer time) into the said content at the expense of all other forms of content. These people are colloquially referred to as 'neckbeards' (I didn't coin that term

    Now, sometimes, these guys are put back in check by the Accounting / Financial control department when they do something particularly stupid. For instance, when they pushed the raid logic to the extreme and designed the Shamanwell Plateau, which was only seen by like 2% of players while being a full blown raid tier (assets-wise), that level of retardation became apparent and we got LK where the raids were a lot more accessible. After that, we got LFR because it was no longer defensible to sink such huge amounts of money into content seen by <10% of the playerbase.

    So, that contradiction went on and on in the game for the past 10+ years. Now, where are we at the end of BFA? We don't have the sub fligures because Blizzard no longer gives them, but from the MAUs alone we can see that BFA was at best stagnating. And more likely, going down.

    Now, in this situation, what a rational person would do? He or she would think along the lines of "hmmm... what type of content brings the most players to the game and what do these players need? Well, they need a story, open-world content, dungeons, perhaps some easy raids. So, let's focus on that type of content"?

    On the other hand, what does Ion do? "Hurrr, let's focus back on raiding again! I mean, that went so well in Lollords of Draenor, right? Sure it will work this time". I'm exaggerating a bit, of course, but that's the main idea.

    So, this has nothing to do with "anyone who raids is a neckbeards". There are all kinds of raiders, good people, normal people, toxic people, you name it. But this people do not have the power to decide how the game should be designed. Unlike the ones running the show at Blizzard HQ.
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  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    No, no, you have no idea what you're speaking about. There was a prestige to timing the first +15 in the world (and for the smaller fish - realm first +15, which was a Feats of Strength achievement). For a large chunk of high rated M+ players. You only think it was pointless because clearly you lived in your own bubble.

    1. BfA M+ was unlocked on September 4th, 2018. The gear was capped, as usual in the heroic week.
    2. World first +15 Atal'Dazar was timed on September 9th (video here), with ilvl 350-357 gear (and 30 sec below the timer). Next day they also timed +15 Freehold (5min30sec below the timer).
    3. Mythic raids opened on September 11. This is also when the obtainable item level was increased beyond ilvl 355.
    well thanks for that.
    So they did clear 15's the first week unlike what the other guy said. thanks for that.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    A mythic15 is many times more impressive and worthy of rewarding good loot than a heroic raid.

    Prove me wrong (you can't)
    You are right to a certain extent.

    I can take my 450 Guardian Druid into a Heroic N'Zoth, tank the boss and kill the boss, get the loot and run. While in a +15 I have a much adder time due to poop magical resistances, gear, the time limit and the overall scaling of the mobs. Group size is also a massive factor, a group with 5 people will have less mechanics to worry about BUT the impact of missing those mechanics are massive just like in raids. Screw up an soak and everyone dies, fun. With a group of 15 people its much easier to carry someone else that is under preforming and funnel them loot which is why all those gear funnel sells happens with 4-5 people in the raid being ilvl 400 characters. Sure M+ you can have 1 person getting carried but its much less effective gold making for the time it takes.

    The reasons why its heavily nerfed is the accessibility of M+ and the timegate lords of blizzards need the player engagement numbers to validate $$$ to the shareholders. I do think M+ rewards should scale to +20ish for mythic rewards. Sure people will complain about no being able to get those rewards but for those that actually enjoy pushing M+ can be rewarded for it. M10 normal, M15 heroic and M18-21 mythic with scaling rewards like in raids. Gear in the m+ should be lower then the weekly chest and never the same as the chest in order to proved raid with a sightly higher ilvl and on par with the chest.

    Making the weekly chest give normal loot is pure BS. Guess m+ are just premade battlegrounds for fun now(same as in BFA). Lets go do a M21 Necrotic Wake and get normal raid ilvl gear instead of gear that slightly lower then mythic cause you know m21s are sooooooo easy and require the same amount of gear and difficulty.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by ID811717 View Post
    No, no, you have no idea what you're speaking about.
    even if it was pointles as he said, WHAT ON EARTH would it have to do with me saying doing +15 first week is not something so easy most players would call it "joke"?!
    bcs thats what my previous comment he reacted to was about... he was so off topic when reacting he should run for US president...

    my fuckup about the date though, didnt check on rio so i though they cleared it week later... although 7days for video editing seems like a lot

  18. #518
    the best way to get bis gear is to play all aspects of the game.

    if you only want to play one aspect of the game, you can get pretty close to bis, no matter what aspect of the game you insist on only playing.
    but sure, players who only wanna raid will get closer to bis than players who only do pvp or m+.

    which i think makes sense considering raiding is where we kill the main villains of the game.
    Last edited by mojusk; 2020-09-20 at 05:06 PM.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    I'll tell you what we need. Pet Battle Raids.
    One-3 pet per person or one person needing 10+ pets to beat a single boss?

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by Reliek View Post
    The reasons why its heavily nerfed is the accessibility of M+ and the timegate lords of blizzards need the player engagement numbers to validate $$$ to the shareholders. I do think M+ rewards should scale to +20ish for mythic rewards. Sure people will complain about no being able to get those rewards but for those that actually enjoy pushing M+ can be rewarded for it. M10 normal, M15 heroic and M18-21 mythic with scaling rewards like in raids. Gear in the m+ should be lower then the weekly chest and never the same as the chest in order to proved raid with a sightly higher ilvl and on par with the chest.
    The problem with 18-21 giving mythic rewards does not work, because these key levels can go from being impossible (e.g. on week 1 of an expansion) to being really easy (e.g. right now, at the end of the expansion). Blizzard would inevitably have to determine the reward item levels dynamically, such as:
    - The best 0.1% players in the world have a chance to get ilvl 485 loot (say, at most 2-4 pieces per week, from a very small number of possible loot pieces, and even that would be like winning in a lottery... to match the chances of a 12/12M raider getting this quality of gear from the last two bosses + from bonus coins).
    - The best 1% players in the world get ilvl 475 loot (again, in very limited numbers, beyond the weekly vault).
    And so on...

    But in order to do that, Blizzard would have to implement their own player rankings for M+. And there are multiple other design pitfalls along the way... I think making a "fair" loot system just goes way-way beyond any reasonable amount of effort Blizzard would be happy to invest into this. I mean, we played 2+ years of BfA, and they did not even bother fixing a lot of common bugs in M+ dungeons. They clearly have no resources for that.

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