With no titanforging we need more stats on gear

[Kehego]

Yeah. I get this. (Also, another 15 year wow player here.)

I think a fair amount of issues with azerite aren't really a problem with the azerite system, but how it interacts with M+ and raids. I do like M+, but it has caused a whole host of problems, and not just with azerite. It has been so much easier to gear up from M+ than raids, and then, on top of it, you managed to get a bonus jump from the weekly chest. Just talking about azerite traits, if the best traits were in M+, you had to continually farm M+ for it. And then, as you pointed out, the huge power jump. The ilevels from M+ allowed players to leap-frog over complete raid tiers and rendered the rewards pretty worthless.

And for others reading this, M+ is massively easier to get gear from than raid. Even if you weren't guaranteed a drop every run, you could spam run the dungeons. If each dungeon were around 20 minutes, you stood a decent chance of getting at least one piece an hour. More if you had people willing to trade you drops. You only need 5 people to run it, you get to practice endlessly, and with the key system, the difficulty is incremental, not the massive wall that is raid tiers. And at the end of the week, you got something from the chest that had an even higher ilevel than what you were running all week. It's absolutely nuts.

As much as it sucks getting less loot, I see the M+ system changes as being a healthy improvement to the game. If I were to reintroduce azerite, I'd keep a 3 ring, M+ focused pieces for M+ rewards, and I'd make raids a 5 ring, generalist rewards. But this is with the assumption that the M+ system is balanced out. I think the current hope with tier bonuses isn't so much with the bonuses themselves but with the idea that you don't need to re-farm the same rewards each new raid tier, and that the idea that raid rewards will be definitively better than M+ rewards, and that each new raid will be an improvement.

the azerite issue was 100% fixed by bod patch but people were just too whiny
People would 100% go to the raid for 5 ringed azerite (and complain that they didnt get it and that the game is unfair)

[Scrysis]

And it was a shit show. I actually raided pre WoD and it wasn't that simple. You needed a full set to tank otherwise you were destroyed. Healer intense fight? Yeah those hybrids are out of Mana in a minute. With the lack of stats today all you need are trinkets and for most content, not even that. The simplification of gear has made it super easy for people to swap roles and do an ok job. Start adding tanking or healing stats back into gear and then Blizzard will design fights to need those stats. And there goes your part time backups. See you next week

This. I like actually having bag space. And not spending hours looking for a tank.

Just think, soon people are going to propose that we bring back spell reagents!

[Monster Hunter]

no

the removal of titanforging means we get BiS back
we can also add gem slots to some pieces
we need set bonuses back

You don't have bis back. And never will.

[Kehego]

You don't have bis back. And never will.

people really didnt understand itemization at all

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This. I like actually having bag space. And not spending hours looking for a tank.

Just think, soon people are going to propose that we bring back spell reagents!

they cried to get back fortitude and battle shout

Grats. you do 10% less damage whenever a warrior/mage isn't present and an additional 5% when a monk/dh is absent

[Monster Hunter]

people really didnt understand itemization at all

Bis or the concept of bis was always more a product of simplistic encounter design. But trying to explain that to people who are fixated on this concept of bis is usually pointless. Eventually they will find it out when there bags are still stuffed with gear for the tons and tons of different situations and encounter designs modern wow now has.

[Kehego]

Bis or the concept of bis was always more a product of simplistic encounter design. But trying to explain that to people who are fixated on this concept of bis is usually pointless. Eventually they will find it out when there bags are still stuffed with gear for the tons and tons of different situations and encounter designs modern wow now has.

Not only encounter design but itemization. strength classes not really even needing that much strength when they could just use agi/ap gear. paladins until wotlk were a whole mess. hunters and mana.

[Kralljin]

And it was a shit show.

That "shitshow" somehow went on for 10 years, without actually being ever a major problem.

You sound like the people who claim that the game cannot exist without Titanforging, despite the game actually doing just fine without it for a decent portion of its lifecycle.

You needed a full set to tank otherwise you were destroyed.

Because no one but tank specs were able to gather tank gear?

Getting tank gear gear was pretty easy for an organized group and a lot of people had tank gear lying around, if your tank didn't need some tank pants anymore, you gave it to some dps, who could then tank if necessary.
Maybe someone had tank lying around from the previous tier, which was still useable because we didn't have 30+ Ilvl jumps per tier back then.

You somehow believe that only a tank specced character was able to collect tank gear, which is just straight false.

Same goes for healing gear, this issue only came up for utterly unprepared raidgroups, which will struggle nowadays as much because someone who hasn't played heal or tank will not even come close to the performance of somehow who knows who to play these roles.

Your current tank doesn't need tank gear, but if they don't have how to play tank or use their active mitigation, that advantage vanishes into thin air.

With the lack of stats today all you need are trinkets and for most content, not even that.

Good thing something like badges existed where you could buy trinkets and whatnot.

[Kehego]

That "shitshow" somehow went on for 10 years, without actually being ever a major problem.

You sound like the people who claim that the game cannot exist without Titanforging, despite the game actually doing just fine without it for a decent portion of its lifecycle.

Because no one but tank specs were able to gather tank gear?

Getting tank gear gear was pretty easy for an organized group and a lot of people had tank gear lying around, if your tank didn't need some tank pants anymore, you gave it to some dps, who could then tank if necessary.
Maybe someone had tank lying around from the previous tier, which was still useable because we didn't have 30+ Ilvl jumps per tier back then.

You somehow believe that only a tank specced character was able to collect tank gear, which is just straight false.

Same goes for healing gear, this issue only came up for utterly unprepared raidgroups, which will struggle nowadays as much because someone who hasn't played heal or tank will not even come close to the performance of somehow who knows who to play these roles.

Your current tank doesn't need tank gear, but if they don't have how to play tank or use their active mitigation, that advantage vanishes into thin air.

Good thing something like badges existed where you could buy trinkets and whatnot.

or you could just have usable trinkets drop

I dunno.

But yes, ofc you would be a proponent of welfare. grind dat lowest common denominator content for rewards twice as powerful

[Ielenia]

no

the removal of titanforging means we get BiS back
we can also add gem slots to some pieces
we need set bonuses back

I much prefer the "Azerite Armor" system that allows me to pick and choose which bonuses each individual piece of armor is going to give me, instead of the fixed bonuses that "lock" that piece of armor to my character, making me unable to replace it otherwise I lose the set bonus.

[Kralljin]

or you could just have usable trinkets drop

I dunno.

But yes, ofc you would be a proponent of welfare. grind dat lowest common denominator content for rewards twice as powerful

I'm not sure where this argument comes from, the point is that acquiring a trinket suited for a certain role wasn't a big issue because you could get one from the badge vendor, even if you aren't maining that given role.

That obviously doesn't mean decent trinkets cannot drop but the discussion about badge vendors hasn't much to do with the discussion at hand.

Also, fullquoting the entire post when you actually just respond to a single sentence is kinda awkward.

[Kehego]

I much prefer the "Azerite Armor" system that allows me to pick and choose which bonuses each individual piece of armor is going to give me, instead of the fixed bonuses that "lock" that piece of armor to my character, making me unable to replace it otherwise I lose the set bonus.

People can't count so apparently 15 bonuses from 3 pieces of gear is somehow inferior to 2 from 4.

Ah well

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I'm not sure where this argument comes from, the point is that acquiring a trinket suited for a certain role wasn't a big issue because you could get one from the badge vendor, even if you aren't maining that given role.

That obviously doesn't mean decent trinkets cannot drop but the discussion about badge vendors hasn't much to do with the discussion at hand.

Also, fullquoting the entire post when you actually just respond to a single sentence is kinda awkward.

I don't care to got through the post and edit out most of your garbage, you can take the quote as a snapshot of your shitpost that I'm replying to.

Lemme see what's easier.

your scenario where I have to go buy shit off a badge vendor, for every slot
or
live scenario where all non damage proc gear is useful for tanks/healers.

Hm. I wonder.

[Kralljin]

your scenario where I have to go buy shit off a badge vendor, for every slot

The ability to buy a trinket off a vendor, doesn't mean one can buy one for every slot.

But i think you're more occupied by glossing over a post and then shitting out some reply that has nothing to do with the actual topic.

[Kehego]

Haha my ideal is always Cata. Early in the expansion I was spamming “heal” and PoM on cd, pws every 12 seconds for the mana regen, if a dps started taking damage on a dungeon boss fight you laughed and pointed as they died. But that only lasted a couple weeks, once you got the two mana regen trinket (vp and darkmoon) it was fine.

End of the expansion I don’t think heal was even on my bars anymore, it was all poh greater heal.

I loved the evolution. Best feeling of progression I’ve ever had on a character.

M+, as with many things, is the thorn in the side here though. If you’re running the same dungeons for 2 years you can’t allow that drastic a change in healing style to happen (which is why I’m in favor of m+ tiers).

I mean healing from the first tier to the last tier of bfa felt different too, but that's not something most people on here would even want to admit.
hint: its the secondary stats

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The ability to buy a trinket off a vendor, doesn't mean one can buy one for every slot.

But i think you're more occupied by glossing over a post and then shitting out some reply that has nothing to do with the actual topic.

And by pulling out an individual line, you're attempting to obfuscate and post things out of context.

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The ability to buy a trinket off a vendor, doesn't mean one can buy one for every slot.

But i think you're more occupied by glossing over a post and then shitting out some reply that has nothing to do with the actual topic.

And by pulling out an individual line, you're attempting to obfuscate and post things out of context.

People can't count so apparently 15 bonuses from 3 pieces of gear is somehow inferior to 2 from 4.

Ah well

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I don't care to got through the post and edit out most of your garbage, you can take the quote as a snapshot of your shitpost that I'm replying to.

Lemme see what's easier.

your scenario where I have to go buy shit off a badge vendor, for every slot
or
live scenario where all non damage proc gear is useful for tanks/healers.

Hm. I wonder.

The ability to buy a trinket off a vendor, doesn't mean one can buy one for every slot.

But i think you're more occupied by glossing over a post and then shitting out some reply that has nothing to do with the actual topic.

so anyway I got no problem quoting my subsequent post.

your scenario, where i have to buy shit off a badge vendor for every slot
or
live where all your dps gear works for healing/tank

I wonder who is the one glossing over a post here. I appreciate your fervor to take things out of context to try to manufacture a point.
Point is, gearing is vastly better for all parties involved now. dassit. you can go back to tbc classic or whatever pirate server you wanna play on and walk around with 3 bags worth of gear, not like you could dual spec and utilize it anyway, mind you

And I yes, I'm aware that you don't have tank gear in every slot. Not that you'd have the badges to buy a full set of gear. If you were playing any expansion pre WoD, and someone asked you to tank, you'd have to go spend a substantial time period to attempt to get geared.

That's the point. I know you're gonna attempt to quote a single line to try to push your asinine rubbish again, but such is life.

[Kehego]

Not nearly to the same extent. I played a resto druid and by and large you cast the same spells the whole time. They healed for a lot more later but whatever. Once you got insane corruption it was fun to see your gcd drop to nothing but again, it’s not close to the same thing as what happened with mana regen in Cata.

I played a holy paladin and a resto shaman and I pressed the same buttons. the nerf to tower of radiance (iirc) early on was huge but w/e. Basing healers around regen was shit and I'm glad its gone to never come back

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tower_of_Radiance the first hotfix

[Scrysis]

That "shitshow" somehow went on for 10 years, without actually being ever a major problem.

You sound like the people who claim that the game cannot exist without Titanforging, despite the game actually doing just fine without it for a decent portion of its lifecycle.

Because no one but tank specs were able to gather tank gear?

Getting tank gear gear was pretty easy for an organized group and a lot of people had tank gear lying around, if your tank didn't need some tank pants anymore, you gave it to some dps, who could then tank if necessary.
Maybe someone had tank lying around from the previous tier, which was still useable because we didn't have 30+ Ilvl jumps per tier back then.

You somehow believe that only a tank specced character was able to collect tank gear, which is just straight false.

Same goes for healing gear, this issue only came up for utterly unprepared raidgroups, which will struggle nowadays as much because someone who hasn't played heal or tank will not even come close to the performance of somehow who knows who to play these roles.

Your current tank doesn't need tank gear, but if they don't have how to play tank or use their active mitigation, that advantage vanishes into thin air.

Good thing something like badges existed where you could buy trinkets and whatnot.

Look at it another way -- do the benefits outweigh the problems that reintroducing old itemization mechanics brings?


General -- Downsides

-- LFG/LFR recode: If stats are significant enough that tank/healer gear has an impact, you need to recode the Looking for Group system so that it checks gear as well as spec, since spec and ilevel alone are no longer enough to reasonably ensure success.

-- Player confusion: Players are now even more confused with what they need to gear up with in order to tank or heal with. New players become even more intimidated as the gearing system becomes more complex, resulting in fewer new players entering the system.

--Long queue/wait times: PUG wait times across the spectrum (LFG/LFR/M+/Raids) become SIGNIFICANTLY longer as now players need specific gear to fulfill specific roles, as well as spec and ilevel requirements. Players increasingly request AI healers and tanks so as to reduce the negative impact.

Tank -- Cons

-- Learning to tank, which is already very intimidating since a large segment of WoW players aren't at all patient with people learning a role, is now 100 times worse due to new players trying to figure out how to balance current secondary stats and things like block, dodge, parry, and armor.

-- Way fewer tanks as more just stick to being dps.

-- The spectrum of tanks widens as tanking now requires more research and theorycrafting in order become reasonably successful. That means that out of the now even more limited pool of tanks, there will be even more "bad" tanks who have suboptimal gear because they didn't find the right resource online. This doesn't even mean it's the player's fault either; multiple conflicting sources online can lead to confusion.


Healer -- Cons

-- Healers will now be limited to strictly "healer" items, even if an item could be useful for them.

-- Disc priests will now have to go to the gym and get swole in order to fight the other casters for "dps" trinkets. All the gyms are closed due to Covid, so this is a bit of a problem.

-- Healers will have extremely lopsided balance during the expansion -- too little mana at the beginning, and never-ending mana at the end. This will have an impact on player expectations and will severely limit encounter design. It will also make some classes, like Mistweaver Monk, OP and BROKEN AS FUCK because they will no longer have a limit on mana.

-- Healers will now have to suffer more often with ignorant pugs yelling at them for wiping even though they were sitting in the back drinking for mana when the group ran into the next room and pulled. This will cause healers to become even more depressed and neurotic than normal, but won't actually impact numbers in any way since all healers are a bunch of masochists anyways. This will only last until midway into the expansion, at which point the healer will blame themselves for not saving dps who stand in fire due to having unlimited mana.

-- DPS will no longer be able to substitute for a healer since they can't be bothered to collect extra healer gear. This will lower the number of people filling the healer position. You'll still be able to tell the real healer in the back by seeing that they're dead inside.

Pros!

-- A small subset of the population is less bored with their secondary stats?

-- Slower gearing (which they could do in other ways)



I mean, the more that I think about it, the more that I realize that Blizzard will never go back to the older ways. There are just too many downsides for what it offers.

[Rawrajishxc]

no

the removal of titanforging means we get BiS back
we can also add gem slots to some pieces
we need set bonuses back

That's what I'm sayin' broham.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Titanforge and systems like artifact power just really can't be removed, sadly.
I know people think they dislike them now, but you will begin to realize how some systems just don't work at all when you get literally nothing from some rewards.

Systems like Mythic+ and world quests were designed with titanforge and AP in mind, and without them, they just really suck some times.

I'll never fully understand people who want the game's progression system to be so finite when content is consumed so quickly, but its harming the game for players who like to play a lot.

[aceperson]

quantity does not equate to quality. we need more interesting stats and gear. not more stats and gear. you are making the exact same mistake blizz is finally fixing.

[Kehego]

Titanforge and systems like artifact power just really can't be removed, sadly.
I know people think they dislike them now, but you will begin to realize how some systems just don't work at all when you get literally nothing from some rewards.

Systems like Mythic+ and world quests were designed with titanforge and AP in mind, and without them, they just really suck some times.

I'll never fully understand people who want the game's progression system to be so finite when content is consumed so quickly, but its harming the game for players who like to play a lot.

they want to "be done" so they can jill off to their reflection in the mirror till the next patch. They've said it previous times too, "i want bis lists so i can get it and be done and play something else"

[Kralljin]

And by pulling out an individual line, you're attempting to obfuscate and post things out of context.

Considering a portion of your post was just insults, i don't think that's really something worth complaining about.

Point is, gearing is vastly better for all parties involved now. dassit. you can go back to tbc classic or whatever pirate server you wanna play on and walk around with 3 bags worth of gear, not like you could dual spec and utilize it anyway, mind you

Looking at Corruption or Azerite, i think that argument stands on thin ice.

And mind you, putting gear for not for your current spec on the bank has always been an option, especially since swapping around specs wasn't something you'd have to do on the fly, unlike Corruption or Azerite which you swap around based on the fight.

Also, said gear seperation also existed in Wotlk, where dual spec as a thing.
Or in MoP, where you could swap between specs freely.

-- LFG/LFR recode: If stats are significant enough that tank/healer gear has an impact, you need to recode the Looking for Group system so that it checks gear as well as spec, since spec and ilevel alone are no longer enough to reasonably ensure success.

This has existed in Wotlk, Cata and MoP.

If this ever was a major issue, then Blizzard didn't even consider it worth solving for ~5 years.
And Tanks have gotten more complex to play and you can't measure that in any shape or form.

-- Player confusion: Players are now even more confused with what they need to gear up with in order to tank or heal with. New players become even more intimidated as the gearing system becomes more complex, resulting in fewer new players entering the system.

Okay, do you really believe an item that reads "+Dodge" or "+Mana regen" confuses a new player?

Look at this whole Conduit & Soulbind system, this is X times more confusing than any of those stats.

This whole "confuses the player" argument is one massive strawman, WoW has gotten more complicated in terms of systems for the past 5 years because Blizzard always throws in new systems that players need to re learn on how they work.

--Long queue/wait times: PUG wait times across the spectrum (LFG/LFR/M+/Raids) become SIGNIFICANTLY longer as now players need specific gear to fulfill specific roles, as well as spec and ilevel requirements.

I think this more comes more down to "people not wanting to tank", rather than "not having the gear", a lot of players used to gather gear for their 2nd spec while playing their main spec.

-- Learning to tank, which is already very intimidating since a large segment of WoW players aren't at all patient with people learning a role, is now 100 times worse due to new players trying to figure out how to balance current secondary stats and things like block, dodge, parry, and armor.

Is this argument a joke?
Look how complicated tanks were to play in Wotlk, look what tanks have to do now.

This whole active mitigation thing is far more mechanically complex, whereas previously the gear took care off the defensive aspect.

-- The spectrum of tanks widens as tanking now requires more research and theorycrafting in order become reasonably successful.

Previously:
"Here's your BiS list"
"Okay"

Current:
"These are the stats you want as tank"
"Okay"

A game where Raidbots has become mandatory cannot pull this argument.

-- Healers will have extremely lopsided balance during the expansion -- too little mana at the beginning, and never-ending mana at the end.

Fair enough, it was however one of the hallmarks to actually feel your character getting stronger, rather than just numbers growing bigger.

-- Healers will now have to suffer with ignorant pugs yelling at them for wiping even though they were sitting in the back drinking for mana when the group ran into the next room and pulled.

Tanks already need to watch the healers Mana, if an DPS pulls, then you have another issue at hand.

-- DPS will no longer be able to substitute for a healer since they can't be bothered to collect extra healer gear. This will lower the number of people filling the healer position. You'll still be able to tell the real healer in the back by seeing that they're dead inside.

Same argument for tanks.