1. #13161
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    You continuing to attack people like this is pretty indicative that you know you're wrong, and just can't admit it. Maybe you could dial back the childish responses and bring it back above board. I'm not going to sit here and eat your shit for much longer.




    You really don't. Or at least you haven't explained it.




    Did you read that before you posted? Seriously, not being facetious here - your argument is literally coming out of your head/feels, and you're claiming that your head/feels is "truth", without any cites or links or anything outside your words - which have been consistently wrong in the logic and objective data. Keep in mind, my position comes from DATA.

    REMEMBER - we're looking at the numbers from this past Primary along with others in the past. What are you looking at? Are you using any evidence? Remember, evidence is a fact, not a position you lay out with words.




    So you're saying that a candidate can fail to increase voter turnout in the Primary (i.e. enthusiasm), but yet somehow increase the turnout in the General? I've posted both logic and reasoning, along with the empirical numbers from past elections, to show this is wrong.

    What have you posted beyond your "feels" again? We must have missed it, could you put the links up again, please?
    That wasn't a childish response, what you're calling a fact is only a fact in your head. You haven't provided anything that shows this to be the case. I've said that a 100 times now. I'm fairly certain what is happening is that you are just skimming my posts and arguing with me about what you skimmed.

    I've given a long detailed explanation behind my thoughts numerous times now, you don;t address them, you just say they are wrong because voter turnout only happens in the primaries first, which isn't true at all.

    I am actually open to being wrong. But you have to prove it and you haven't. You haven't even provided a cogent argument let alone facts or reasoning as to why you think getting votes in a general election is predicated on converting independents into a people that join a party and vote in the primaries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I am... if I don’t specify, you can assume that I believed the specifics were unnecessary. If you disagree, feel free to point it out. But, I’m watching a game, so don’t take skipping posts or taking a while to reply personally... I also got to cook a chicken soon... saying it, because it’s both funny and true... I got a chicken to cook...
    You're not though. Enjoy your dinner and thank whatever power you believe in Trump fucked up the covid response.
    Last edited by Bodakane; 2020-09-20 at 06:19 PM.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  2. #13162
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I am actually open to being wrong. But you have to prove it and you haven't.
    I disagree... It’s why I always try to bring arguments down to a base level. If you can frame it in an equation or have a mathematical representation, it’s the simplest way to show someone disagreeing, being unreasonable.

    Here is another one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...in_U.S._states

    As of May 2020, Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrats, 25% identified as Republican, and 40% as Independent. Additionally, polling showed that 50% are either "Democrats or Democratic leaners" and 38% are either "Republicans or Republican leaners" when Independents are asked "do you lean more to the Democratic Party or the Republican Party?"
    Basically, if independents break even, democrats win due to existing majority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    You're not though. Enjoy your dinner and thank whatever power you believe in Trump fucked up the covid response.
    I’m not going yet... at best during the second game...

    I don’t understand why you think covid is disproportionately helping any democrats. I think the difference between it helping a generic democrat and a specific democrat, would have nearly the same results.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
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  3. #13163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    That wasn't a childish response, what you're calling a fact is only a fact in your head. You haven't provided anything that shows this to be the case. I've said that a 100 times now. I'm fairly certain what is happening is that you are just skimming my posts and arguing with me about what you skimmed.

    I've given a long detailed explanation behind my thoughts numerous times now, you don;t address them, you just say they are wrong because voter turnout only happens in the primaries first, which isn't true at all.

    I am actually open to being wrong. But you have to prove it and you haven't. You haven't even provided a cogent argument let alone facts or reasoning as to why you think getting votes in a general election is predicated on converting independents into a people that join a party and vote in the primaries.
    We've provided links showing voter turnout from past elections and primaries. You continue to argue with those facts with things from your head. You continue to ignore that Bernie didn't bring out the young vote this year, as everyone said he would.

    I've addressed them precisely. Your point continues to be the logical (and factual) fallacy that voter enthusiasm for a candidate doesn't happen in the Primary, but only in the General.

    Feel free to lay out, with FACT and CITES, how that position is wrong. So far, you have not.
    Last edited by cubby; 2020-09-20 at 06:32 PM.

  4. #13164
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I disagree... It’s why I always try to bring arguments down to a base level. If you can frame it in an equation or have a mathematical representation, it’s the simplest way to show someone disagreeing, being unreasonable.

    Here is another one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...in_U.S._states



    Basically, if independents break even, democrats win due to existing majority.

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    I’m not going yet... at best during the second game...

    I don’t understand why you think covid is disproportionately helping any democrats. I think the difference between it helping a generic democrat and a specific democrat, would have nearly the same results.
    1. And yet in 2016 they didn't win did they......

    2. I'm not saying covid wouldn't help a Warren or Bernie. There you go again misconstruing my argument. You have to be doing this on purpose. I'm saying Biden needs that help to beat Trump and don't think Bernie or Warren would need it.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  5. #13165
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    Quote Originally Posted by NED funded View Post
    The whole thing is super shoddy even if you accept their arguments

    Like, "Bernie would have totally brought new voters to the base, there is no evidence of this just trust"
    Exactly - that's the argument he's trying to make, and there is neither evidence nor reasoning saying it would happen.

  6. #13166
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    We've provided links showing voter turnout from past elections and primaries. You continue to argue with those facts with things from your head. You continue to ignore that Bernie didn't bring out the young vote this year, as everyone said he would.

    I've addressed them precisely. Your point continues to be the logical (and factual) fallacy that voter enthusiasm for a candidate doesn't happen in the Primary, but only in the General.

    Feel free to lay out, with FACT and CITES, how that position is wrong. So far, you have not.

    I'm not ignoring anything. I didn't see where you posted any facts. Where are these facts that prove turning independents into a primary participating member of a party is the only valid goal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Exactly - that's the argument he's trying to make, and there is neither evidence nor reasoning saying it would happen.

    Again, no the fuck it isn;t my argument.

    Literally to a person, you guys are straight misrepresenting my point.
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  7. #13167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    1. And yet in 2016 they didn't win did they...
    Again, in order to make this argument, you have to argue that the status quo now, is the same as before Trump. Something that I think you would disagree with...

    2. I'm not saying covid wouldn't help a Warren or Bernie. There you go again misconstruing my argument. You have to be doing this on purpose. I'm saying Biden needs that help to beat Trump and don't think Bernie or Warren would need it.
    Why didn’t Warren or Bernie need the same help? What do you base this on?

    (By the way, you are literally saying I’m misrepresenting you, to say exactly what I’m saying.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Exactly - that's the argument he's trying to make, and there is neither evidence nor reasoning saying it would happen.
    What can you do...

    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  8. #13168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I'm not ignoring anything. I didn't see where you posted any facts. Where are these facts that prove turning independents into a primary participating member of a party is the only valid goal?
    Um, NO - that wasn't your fucking argument to me. You said Bernie would bring out the vote better than other candidates. Here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I said Warren or Bernie would bring out the vote in the actual election.
    Still patently, and objectively false. They didn't bring out anyone new to the Primary, factually, and there is no evidence (outside your feels) that they would have done so in the General.

    Please post FACTS and CITES to back up your claim if you disagree. FACT and CITES - not your words. It's clear we disagree on those, so there's no point in continuing to repeat ourselves.

  9. #13169
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Again, in order to make this argument, you have to argue that the status quo now, is the same as before Trump. Something that I think you would disagree with...



    Why didn’t Warren or Bernie need the same help? What do you base this on?

    (By the way, you are literally saying I’m misrepresenting you, to say exactly what I’m saying.)
    1. I've explained the status quo part. You ignored my point, rewrote your won and are again wanting me to defend your rewrite.
    2. I've already explained why they wouldn't need the help, like 10 times now. Not doing it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Um, NO - that wasn't your fucking argument to me. You said Bernie would bring out the vote better than other candidates. Here:


    Still patently, and objectively false. They didn't bring out anyone new to the Primary, factually, and there is no evidence (outside your feels) that they would have done so in the General.

    Please post FACT and CITES to back up your claim if you disagree. FACT and CITES - not your words. It's clear we disagree on those, so there's no point in continuing to repeat ourselves.
    I have posted facts. Just like Felya, you ignored them. You still haven;t made a single post with a fact or even reasoning. You just tell me I'm wrong and back it up with air.

    Here:

    Primaries are not indicative of the general election, full stop. Prove that wrong.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  10. #13170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    What can you do...

    Not much, lol. He actually forgot his original point with me. So...I don't know.

    Meanwhile, looks like RBG is going to be replaced with a Trump nominee. And we'll be lucky to see an actual election with the USPS fuckery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I have posted facts. Just like Felya, you ignored them. You still haven;t made a single post with a fact or even reasoning. You just tell me I'm wrong and back it up with air.

    Here:

    Primaries are not indicative of the general election, full stop. Prove that wrong.
    I see no links or cites in response to me.

    Repost them. NOW. I call bullshit - show your cites and links now. Failure to do so will prove you're both wrong and a liar.

  11. #13171
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    1. I've explained the status quo part. You ignored my point, rewrote your won and are again wanting me to defend your rewrite.
    How am I ignoring it, when I say it doesn’t make sense and then try to explain why? The fact that you refuse to explain how the status quo is the same in 2020 and 2016, is why what you are saying us wrong. On top of it, you can’t explain and in fact argue against, the idea that there is any reason to believe that Bernie or Warren would fare better than Biden.

    I've already explained why they wouldn't need the help, like 10 times now. Not doing it again.
    You said Biden needs help, I’m asking why Warren and Bernie wouldn’t need it. Seriously... WTF?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  12. #13172
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Not much, lol. He actually forgot his original point with me. So...I don't know.

    Meanwhile, looks like RBG is going to be replaced with a Trump nominee. And we'll be lucky to see an actual election with the USPS fuckery.

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    Repost them. NOW. I call bullshit - show your cites and links now. Failure to do so will prove you're both wrong and a liar.
    Trump won the election in 2016.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  13. #13173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    You said Biden needs help, I’m asking why Warren and Bernie wouldn’t need it. Seriously... WTF?
    He never did. I'm sensing that we're never going to get a real argument from him - and I've yet to see a single cite or link backing up any of his claims.

  14. #13174
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    How am I ignoring it, when I say it doesn’t make sense and then try to explain why? The fact that you refuse to explain how the status quo is the same in 2020 and 2016, is why what you are saying us wrong. On top of it, you can’t explain and in fact argue against, the idea that there is any reason to believe that Bernie or Warren would fare better than Biden.



    You said Biden needs help, I’m asking why Warren and Bernie wouldn’t need it. Seriously... WTF?
    I've explained both of these in detail. You ignored or misrepresented those explanations. Go back and read them,.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  15. #13175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Primaries are not indicative of the general election, full stop. Prove that wrong.
    What are they indicative of?
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  16. #13176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Trump won the election in 2016.
    So no cites then? Nothing to prove your original point? Thanks for conceding. Don't bother responding, your bullshit just got outed.

  17. #13177
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    He never did. I'm sensing that we're never going to get a real argument from him - and I've yet to see a single cite or link backing up any of his claims.

    I did. In the big long post you ignored.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  18. #13178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I've explained both of these in detail. You ignored or misrepresented those explanations. Go back and read them,.
    Nope... I even underlined you explicitly saying it above... sorry...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  19. #13179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    What are they indicative of?
    Don't - he's lying. Can't cite anything. Looked back, no links to prove his point.

    We have evidence from the 2020 primary that Bernie didn't bring out new voters. Yet somehow magically he would in the General.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I did. In the big long post you ignored.
    Repost them now.

  20. #13180
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    So no cites then? Nothing to prove your original point? Thanks for conceding. Don't bother responding, your bullshit just got outed.
    But I'm the child here, ok. Here read this fucking post. Don't skim it, read it. then give your facts as to why its all wrong, Counselor, because you haven't provided ANYTHING to back your point. Nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Part 1: Independents are not moderate.
    I say this because if they were moderate they would NOT have voted for Trump in 2016. He was an extreme right candidate espousing extreme right ideals. He didn't even moderately grab someone by the pussy. Hillary on the other hand, is the walking embodiment of moderate. So, if these moderates are just so moderate why did they not vote the very moderate moderate into office?

    This clearly shows that the independents that flipped the 2016 are either.....far right which is not moderate or over the status quo (which Hillary also perfectly embodied) which is also, get this....not moderate. Sure, I'm letting hope tell me they were just over the status quo and not far right shitbags, but its hope based in reality and logic. Either way, they very clearly were not moderate.

    Part 2: People are fatigued with the status quo, due in large part to social media and information overload.
    Most people are not that invested in politics. They care enough to vote in the general but not enough to follow it before then. To them it is an unknowable quagmire filled with instances where there's no clear right and wrong. Social media and the internet giving platforms for all the angry voices just further exacerbates that issue. They thought, leading up to 2016, that both sides were basically the same, like two football teams in a game and the people arguing over it were no different than those teams fans. They aren't happy with the economy or the derision or just the overall state of things. They don't feel like their choice matters, as it seemed it was likely going to come down to Typical Politician A vs. Typical Politician B. Then came Trump and they and we laughed. Then came Hillary, Typical Politician A. Then they saw it was Typical Politician A vs. Not Typical Politician B. Then they said fuck it, and voted Not Typical Politician B. (Or you know your explanation, where they just decided to vote for Nazis because they are moderate or some shit that makes sense to only you.....)

    Part 3: Trump's massive Covid failure gives Biden a chance.
    Before Covid, the average person wasn't really noticing a massive change in their life. Their quality of life hadn't;t really changed all that much. The political discourse grew across all media though which would only further the fatigue they felt in 2016. So after 2016, when the independents gave Trump a victory due to not being the same old same old.....Dems decided to nominate....Typical Politician C, thereby completely missing the lesson they should have learned 4 years prior. So these fatigued independents whose live wasn't all that different from 2016 to pre covid 2020, are staring at Dems who just made the same decision they made before...why would these independents vote any differently at that point? They likely wouldn't have. But then came covid, and the death tolls and economy point to a fucking apocalypse. That changes minds....hopefully.

    Part 4: Bernie or my actual choice overall Warren, could beat Trump but Dems voted safe in the primaries.
    Dems are notoriously cowards politically. Most dems actually wanted Berni/Warren level plans and programs but voted Biden because they, like you, stupidly think dependents still equal moderate. But if one of them or even Pete had gotten the nom, then this election would be about Not Typical Politician A Whose A Functioning Adult vs. Not Typical Politician B Whose Not A Functioning Adult. By going this route, Trump's incompetence comes into play because these independents weren't going further down the list then Question #1: Is this candidate a typical politician?

    FTR: Just so you and Cubby know, I'm voting Biden without hesitation or compunction. I actually wanted Biden over Obama in their 2008 primary because Biden is actually an excellent strategist with foreign affairs and I knew little of Obama.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Nope... I even underlined you explicitly saying it above... sorry...
    This is insane.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

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