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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Tolerating bad plays and lack of talent is a toxic problem far worse than having a twisted perspective that makes you see nearly all comments or conversations as an attack.
    Because they are? Who decides whether a comment is an attack? You? Just as the you can claim a comment is not attack, the recipient can also claim it is. Your claim is no more correct than they are.

    It is the same with other remarks. One person may consider a comment a joke while another can consider it as insult.

    It sounds this is just an excuse to justify an offensive comment just because the person consider it to be true. True or not, the comment can still be offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    It seems like being kind but in fact you're just an enabler. Not sucking is just as easy as not saying anything to bad players, the only difference is sucking is the source of toxicity, the bad comments are just a symptom, solve the problem at the source to really cure cancer.
    This sounds like a deflection or justification of toxic behavior and deflecting the blame onto something else.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbrigham View Post
    So, this may be a devisive post, but I'm curious what the general wow community thinks about it. In the decade plus I have played wow, I have experienced good interactions...and some really really toxic ones. Here too. But I'm curious why you-you being the WoW player, or the forum goer- why do you think people are so toxic? I mean, it doesn't help. It doesn't add to the fun of others. Its not conducive to a healthy game or forum environment. So why then?? Why be toxic. Either on WoW or in forum.
    I would say for the same reason the Internet has been toxic since before the Internet existed. During the bulletin board days there were toxic people, and in fact it was just as easy back then as it is now to post toxic replies without any repercussion. Posting through pseudonyms was quite easy, especially since most bulletin boards didn't require anything personal to validate who you were.

    I reject that earlier eras of the World of Warcraft community were less toxic. In fact, I think that by and large, mundane interactions between players in the current game (both retail and classic) are a bit better overall. I think that's true only because people seem to interact less today than they did back early on in World of Warcraft. For example, trade chat is dead on most of the servers on retail. That does not mean that toxic interactions are not happening.

    Ultimately, getting back to the "why", I think there is no incentive in the game for people to be nice. Human beings are always seeking for their own good in a game. Thus, the only barrier to toxic behavior is self-restraint, dignity, and decency.

  3. #143
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    Because they are? Who decides whether a comment is an attack? You? Just as the you can claim a comment is not attack, the recipient can also claim it is. Your claim is no more correct than they are.

    It is the same with other remarks. One person may consider a comment a joke while another can consider it as insult.
    Like you said, who decides whether a comment is an attack? If I can't then the person I'm talking to also can't. Their opinion is not as valuable as mine. In fact, they might not even know what the intent of the message was because only the speaker knows. Therefore I would be in a better situation to explain if the comment was an attack or not.

    Ultimately all discussions are a 2 way thing, the true meaning comes from the speaker, not from the listener.

    The listener can misinterpret, the speaker can't. Feeling insulted doesn't mean the speaker's intention was to insult, maybe the listener is just overly sensitive. And the message doesn't transform into an insult based on the listener's feelings, the message carries the intention of the speaker.

    If the speaker has to apologize for simple words that can easily be ignored, then shouldn't the person who plays bad enough to waste everybody's time apologize as well and understand that it's normal for others to be pissed at him?
    I'm asking this question seriously, why should we just be nice to people who constantly underperform and waste time for everyone else?
    They get to cry if people are unhappy with them but everyone should be forced to deal with their crap? What?

    It sounds this is just an excuse to justify an offensive comment just because the person consider it to be true. True or not, the comment can still be offensive.
    You're talking as if there was an official, objective rule describing what an "offensive" comment is. And technically, there is. For a comment to be offensive it needs to be made as an attack. Read MADE AS, therefore it has to be the intent of the speaker to make his comment offensive. If the listener CONSIDERS it offensive, that's their own little problem, it doesn't TRANSFORM the meaning or intent the speaker originally had.
    If player A is playing bad and player B says "You're playing like shit", this is the exact same thought process as seeing a red apple and saying "that's a red apple". As the listener, if you're aware that you're playing like shit you can just agree and move on, you're not FORCED to be offended by a fact statement, you can have the mental awareness to recognize it even before someone says it. I'm sure you've seen people do a mistake in a dungeon and instantly say "sorry my bad I messed up", this is the kind of attitude I'm talking about. Everyone should be like this.

    And of course through all this I'm not talking about the EXTREMELY RARE cases where someone just goes off like a madman on a mix of dope just yelling insults non stop at people, this happens like one every 3 months, just laugh it off and move on goddamn, it's not important what a crazy person says. Why do you let this affect you?

    This sounds like a deflection or justification of toxic behavior and deflecting the blame onto something else.
    Sounds like it at first glance. But when you think about it for more than 12 seconds you can realize it's not.
    Last edited by CrawlFromThePit; 2020-09-20 at 08:31 PM.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Quite the opposite i was/am being the victim of toxic people.
    If you were a victim of toxic people, that doesn't mean you aren't toxic as well.

  5. #145
    People are in a love/hate relationship with the game because they get some endorphin rush from it they can’t seem to get anywhere else. Plus, there seems to be some anger in long running fandoms these days when it comes to IPs expanding their horizons a bit when it comes to who their content is aimed at, who it’s for, or who is included and a certain percentage of the player base can’t comes to grip with it.

    WoW seems to be special in this regard. Don’t see the same attitudes in SWtoR and definitely not in GW2.

  6. #146
    Pandaren Monk ThatsOurEric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    First of all it's important to note that most toxicity does not materialize out of thin air. An issue occurs first and becomes the source of the toxicity.
    Yes, but more often than not, a TOXIC person is the one who takes the issue to
    the extreme 1st.

    Ex. A dungeon party wipes. If someone says, something that attacks the group (i.e. you guys suck, or something
    passive aggressive like, "what the fuck guys"), is that person being toxic? Yes or no.

    This source often happens to be something like excessively bad player skill, blatant ignorance concerning basic knowledge that players should have, or straight up stupidity. All of those are easily avoidable, and I'm not talking about new players, that's understandable, I'm talking about those with evidence of big experience in the game.
    Except that all of those things you're commenting about are most often attributed to new players, or players who
    don't take the content *that seriously*. To them, it's a game, meant to be played for fun. If you don't WANT
    to group with those kinds of people, there are ways around it.

    And terms like "bad player skill" and "stupidity" are very loaded and dubious.

    What they bring is worse than toxicity, and here's why: it doesn't add to the fun of others, it's not conductive to a healthy game or forum environment, but on top of all that they make players around them mad by wasting their time and creating a terrible gaming experience which then creates toxicity.
    Bull fucking shit. This is just an excuse that toxic people (such as yourself) make to justify insulting and
    belittling others in an attempt to make yourself look better, on top of justification to being an asshole.

    The thing that separates toxic people from those that aren't is a little something called "maturity" and
    most importantly, knowing the difference between being an asshole and CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

    There are plenty of ways one can deal with "low skill" or "bad" players. One could be, oh I dunno, helping
    them improve? And even if you don't want to be that nice, you can always avoid them.

    I've been playing WoW and other online games for years, and despite multiple times I've had, been paired
    with bad players, I may stew about them outside of the games, but I have never directly attacked or
    berated them. I may offer suggests and help. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But under no
    circumstances am I ever justified in insulting someone FIRST. Regardless of what they do, unless it is
    something that is tantamount to cheating, no one is ever justified in being a bully, or acting like an asshole.

    is the "toxic person" in his right to express his opinion on someone's shortcoming?
    If the toxic person is incapable of sharing their opinion without being an asshole, no, he has no right
    to share it, because no one else wants to hear it.

    Are we, as a species, supposed to just accept all form of mediocrity without saying a word? Shouldn't we strive to better ourselves and move forward or just be content with being crayon eaters?
    This is unbelievably elitist and downright pathetic to say, let alone believe in.

    Simply put, if people stop sucking at video games or saying extremely stupid stuff on forums like "blizzard hates warlocks" or some other silly things that are the actual opposite of reality, then toxicity could probably straight up disappear.
    Once more, bull fucking shit.

    Everyone has varying degrees of skill regarding a game. YOU, and no one else who had no hand in the game's
    development or creation, has the right to tell anyone they suck at any capacity, regardless of it being online
    in the game or on a forum. Toxic people will find ANYTHING to complain about. I've had games of Overwatch
    where my team is being carried by a seriously skilled player, but if they make one mistake, and someone
    attacks them for "being shit" despite that one mistake and all the mountain of work they've done. Assholes
    will find any excuse to be an asshole.

    Almost every instance of toxic behavior can be linked to a stupid thing someone else did or said in the first place.
    No, it was because someone decided to be an asshole, and be "that guy" and volunteer his/herself when NO ONE asked
    them to.

    I strongly believe moronic behavior perfectly warrants a "harsh" response to some extent
    Some would call your post and thought process "moronic." Are you saying that by your logic, YOU should be
    perfectly warranted to being targeted harshly?

    Moronic behavior is a loaded term, because it has no objective meaning, it's entirely subjective. One person's
    "moronic" behavior is another's "silly" behavior, or "fun" behavior, etc. etc.

    Once again, only an asshole would act immediately hostile over what they perceive as harsh. It is actually
    *gasp* possible to challenge something WITHOUT being a douche.

    No we're not, some people suck, some people are good, we don't contribute to society or life to the same extent, our own value on this planet is not the same, some people are simply more important than others.
    This is also, not surprisingly, an extremely pathetic and elitist thing to say.

    To all the people out there who are prone to quickly report people because "they say bad words" or "they hurt my feelings" and other things along those lines, you want this to stop? You want to be valued? You want to have a good time online? Work on yourself, open your mind, thicken your skin, harden those fragile feelings, get better, improve, give no one around you a reason to be toxic, make them enjoy their time when you're around. Don't be the clown who has to get carried everywhere and needs better players to get shit done or need devs to implement a report system to make you feel "safe" in a gaming community.
    Yet another elitist response, this one more akin to worshipping the elitist mindset.

  7. #147
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsOurEric View Post
    Yes, but more often than not, a TOXIC person is the one who takes the issue to
    the extreme 1st.

    Ex. A dungeon party wipes. If someone says, something that attacks the group (i.e. you guys suck, or something
    passive aggressive like, "what the fuck guys"), is that person being toxic? Yes or no.
    Yes. And I mentioned that before. My issue is with people who claim any form of message that is not 100% positive should instantly be considered toxic. People are way too quick to get their feelings hurt and calling toxicity.


    Except that all of those things you're commenting about are most often attributed to new players, or players who
    don't take the content *that seriously*. To them, it's a game, meant to be played for fun. If you don't WANT
    to group with those kinds of people, there are ways around it.

    And terms like "bad player skill" and "stupidity" are very loaded and dubious.
    I talked about this as well in a previous post, there's a huge difference between a new player and someone who's 470+ with 25k achievement points, a long boi and shit, but he still body pulls a bunch of stuff as if he was sitting on his keyboard? That's what I mean by bad player. I never once tried to justify being mean to a new player.



    Bull fucking shit. This is just an excuse that toxic people (such as yourself) make to justify insulting and
    belittling others in an attempt to make yourself look better, on top of justification to being an asshole.
    That's your assumption and nothing else. Being an asshole would imply just coming out the gate with insults and being aggressive to everyone for no reason. I never did that. And I almost never see that happening ever. I'm sure if there was a statistics on that, the ratio of toxicity coming from bad play vs random attacks for no reason the ratio would be at least 90% of the time it comes from someone playing bad and refusing to improve or listen to what others say.

    The thing that separates toxic people from those that aren't is a little something called "maturity" and
    most importantly, knowing the difference between being an asshole and CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.
    Again something I mentioned in a previous post (btw I'm not saying this as if you should have read every posts I made besides the one you replied to, I'm just repeating), there's many cases where giving polite suggestions result in the person getting instantly offended and telling me to stfu and not tell them how to play "their class" as if they invented it and knew more than anyone else. These people deserve to be shit on. For the others who take it correctly then everything is fine. I don't explode out of nowhere calling people names at the first slip up. For these cases of straight up rage then is it even worth the time having a discussion over that? They're clearly crazy, clearly won't read this thread, and clearly can't be reasoned with. There's an ignore feature in the game, that's all you can do about it, either way that happens extremely rarely at least from my experience, compared to real cesspools of bullshit like LoL for example.


    There are plenty of ways one can deal with "low skill" or "bad" players. One could be, oh I dunno, helping
    them improve? And even if you don't want to be that nice, you can always avoid them.
    Same as above, what do you do when you tell them politely what to do and they incorrectly take it as an offense? At this point they become the toxic person, it's perfectly fine to insult them yet they are still the ones prone to using report features in games even if they are objectively at fault. It's not the job of everyone else in the group to UNCONDITIONALLY tolerate and help them and spend the entire dungeon being at their service. Constantly bad players should be punished way harder than those who have to deal with them, specially since they already suffered from said bad play.


    I've been playing WoW and other online games for years, and despite multiple times I've had, been paired
    with bad players, I may stew about them outside of the games, but I have never directly attacked or
    berated them. I may offer suggests and help. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But under no
    circumstances am I ever justified in insulting someone FIRST. Regardless of what they do, unless it is
    something that is tantamount to cheating, no one is ever justified in being a bully, or acting like an asshole.
    I completely agree and you can apply this paragraph to every single thing I posted in this thread and it would fit perfectly. The only thing I'm fighting against is the step beyond what you just describe, where people are being stubborn idiots after others were nice to them and they still call that toxicity. This happens way more often than people going full aggro out of nowhere, at least from my experience which isn't any smaller than yours as you described.


    If the toxic person is incapable of sharing their opinion without being an asshole, no, he has no right
    to share it, because no one else wants to hear it.
    To be completely truthful, what gives someone the right to voice their opinion has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of people willing to listen to it, no matter the content. That's just not how conversation works. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion and everybody else has the right to ignore it or reply anything they want about said opinion.


    This is unbelievably elitist and downright pathetic to say, let alone believe in.
    You call this elitist, I call this having drive and ambitions. Try to prove me wrong just for the fun. Let's be real, there is far more to gain, in everything, by putting efforts and doing things well, than in half-assing everything and doing "just enough" which is often not really enough... for the sake of what? A subjective, individual perspective of fun?


    Once more, bull fucking shit.

    Everyone has varying degrees of skill regarding a game. YOU, and no one else who had no hand in the game's
    development or creation, has the right to tell anyone they suck at any capacity, regardless of it being online
    in the game or on a forum. Toxic people will find ANYTHING to complain about. I've had games of Overwatch
    where my team is being carried by a seriously skilled player, but if they make one mistake, and someone
    attacks them for "being shit" despite that one mistake and all the mountain of work they've done. Assholes
    will find any excuse to be an asshole.
    Well yeah, this is just human nature. It has nothing to do with toxicity or internet, or gaming. Look at the silly idiots refusing to wear masks and getting beat up because they talk back instead of doing it and shutting the fuck up. It's the exact same principle, if they put on their mask no one will complain except crazy people who can be ignored. If everyone plays well, no one will complain except the crazy people who can be ignored. The BIGGER PART OF THE PROBLEM will be solved, because that's the SOURCE of the problem. Complaining that someone plays bad is not the source, someone FIRST has to play bad for this to happen, and the threshold is pretty big. If I do better than everyone in a M+ I'm not gonna shit on everyone just because I'm like 1% ahead (gross, vague example), but if there's one guy who body pulled some stupid shit 3 times in a row and it's clearly because of him that we didn't make time, then yeah I might have a few words for the REAL TOXIC PERSON who made 4 other people waste their time. Time is A LOT MORE valuable than the little feelings one bad player has coming from EASILY IGNORABLE WORDS in a video game chat.

    Can we all just stop acting like this is extremely relentless fucking cyber bullying attacking their real life reputation and everything? It's just meaningless words in a video game chat, said by a no-name, to another no-name. It's IRRELEVANT, stop being so fucking sensitive to this shit, you are hurting yourself. Just say "ur mom" and ignore him, who gives a shit.


    No, it was because someone decided to be an asshole, and be "that guy" and volunteer his/herself when NO ONE asked
    them to.
    And who was asked to play badly. Please take the time to consider and understand both sides here. You seem to be pretty locked on the idea that any mention of a "negative" word regardless of context INSTANTLY makes that person the bad guy. There is SO MUCH MORE to all of this that you seem to completely ignore, IMO willingly, just for the sake of disagreeing with my post and trying to fight me, when everything I said actually makes a tremendous amount of logical sense.

    Some would call your post and thought process "moronic." Are you saying that by your logic, YOU should be
    perfectly warranted to being targeted harshly?
    That's basically what you're doing right now. I have no issue with it because I'm not a sensitive little shit who clicks on the report button the moment someone disagrees with me. I enjoy having these conversations. What I mean by moronic were things that are pretty obvious like the example I gave of claiming that Blizzard hates Warlocks. It's extremely well documented that Warlocks have been very well supported by Blizzard over their entire existence. You can try to make a case for yourself by explaining why you think my position on the subject is moronic, but so far your entire post revolves around "if you say one bad word you are an asshole regardless of the context, everyone should be forced to happily have their time wasted by bad players and on top of that help them get better as well since these bad players NEVER refuse help and ALWAYS welcome criticism"... which of course, is objectively false.

    Moronic behavior is a loaded term, because it has no objective meaning, it's entirely subjective. One person's
    "moronic" behavior is another's "silly" behavior, or "fun" behavior, etc. etc.
    Well that's a very vague and generic way to put it. In general if you consider everything in life, yes, what you said mostly applies. There are exceptions that make this impossible to be a universal truth. Like eating tidepods, drinking soap to gain immunity to covid, not wearing a mask in a dirty walmart, and many more surprisingly stupid behavior that have been seen. Maybe in comparison to that my use of moronic doesn't hold the same value, mostly because the consequences are not comparable, but the concept basically is the same: something that obviously should not happened, did happen, either by mistake or ignorance, both of which are the result of weakness or inferiority compared to the average the majority is used to.

    Once again, only an asshole would act immediately hostile over what they perceive as harsh. It is actually
    *gasp* possible to challenge something WITHOUT being a douche.
    I talked about this several times above, no need to repeat.


    This is also, not surprisingly, an extremely pathetic and elitist thing to say.
    That's just your perspective on it. Doesn't change that it's a fact. Not every life has the same value. I make video games for a living, I'm easily expandable, borderline useless I just make entertainment products, it's not necessary. A doctor is far more valuable than I am to society. It doesn't matter how I feel about this or how I see myself, it's just a reality I have to accept because even if I don't accept it, that's still how it really is.
    This isn't about being elitist or acting like I'm above others, it's about being realistic and knowing your place in the world. This applies to people who are on top as well as the bottom dwellers who could die today and their bodies be found in 3 years rotting in a dirty apartment because the smell reach the floor above.


    Yet another elitist response, this one more akin to worshipping the elitist mindset.
    Those are all extremely useful tips I just gave. I don't know why you would consider any of that "elitist". Being strong minded is considered elitist now? Seriously what is wrong with you? Why does your entire post sounds like "please support mediocrity"?
    Re-read that last paragraph from my post:
    "To all the people out there who are prone to quickly report people because "they say bad words" or "they hurt my feelings" and other things along those lines, you want this to stop? You want to be valued? You want to have a good time online? Work on yourself, open your mind, thicken your skin, harden those fragile feelings, get better, improve, give no one around you a reason to be toxic, make them enjoy their time when you're around. Don't be the clown who has to get carried everywhere and needs better players to get shit done or need devs to implement a report system to make you feel "safe" in a gaming community."

    Do you seriously believe anyone in their right mind should do the opposite of what I suggest there? People should not want to be valued? They should not work on themselves to improve and have a better time in game and in life? They shouldn't want to be mentally more resistant to the bullshit comments of others? They shouldn't want to become good enough so others have no reason to complain about what they do? They should be the clowns who need to be carried in everything they do and they should expect devs to make safe space systems for them in online communities?

    Please take a deep breath and really think this over. There's no way you really believe this is elitism or a bad thing to suggest to people. It's like the ONE truly positive part of my post and you just brush it off like the dried out corpse of a fly by the window.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    You're talking as if there was an official, objective rule describing what an "offensive" comment is. And technically, there is. For a comment to be offensive it needs to be made as an attack.
    In some places, there is. An independent adjudicator. If you work in a workplace that values diversity, there is usually someone that is appointed to that role, either internal or external.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Read MADE AS, therefore it has to be the intent of the speaker to make his comment offensive. If the listener CONSIDERS it offensive, that's their own little problem, it doesn't TRANSFORM the meaning or intent the speaker originally had.
    That kinds of prove some of my point. You seems to suggest that because no offensive was intended, then it is not an attack. You are deciding, not the recipient. And if the recipient is having trouble with that, it is their problem. Shifting the blame to them for your behavior.

  9. #149
    Some people are toxic online. It is most noticeable in online gaming - but it happens on twitter, facebook, discord etc.

    I just know it's the norm and use whatever tools there are to avoid being confronted by it.

    For example, there's a guild on my server that gives ranks based on the best (read nastiest) insult made by a member in trade chat. I block everyone in that guild (they are not huge). I am also in a guild that has become friends and has values that reward good online behaviour and does not tolerate abusive behaviour.

    I don't think you can 'fix' toxic behaviour. Reporting the really bad occurrences is worth doing - but never say you are doing so. Often the biggest rewards for toxins (people who are toxic) is being noticed - and responding only enables them to escalate. But the best solution is to use tools to avoid them - and again typing out 'blocked' is a waste of time - just do it without hesitation. There are some situations where you won't be able to avoid it unless you can avoid pugs totally. It is no coincidence that solo instance play (torghast, visions) is becoming a 'thing'.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    snip.
    This all comes from a place where you feel the need to suggest others should play a certain way - something you really dont have any say in. Why is it that you feel some kind of power over how others play? Why is it such a big issue for you? This is a really common opinion i see from you - play how i want you to play, or, in your words, you deserve to 'get shit on'.

    You have the right to play how you want, and so do the other players. You have the right to not play with them, and i would recommend that would be a better solution than "shitting on" people because they dont play to your personal standard.

  11. #151
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This all comes from a place where you feel the need to suggest others should play a certain way - something you really dont have any say in. Why is it that you feel some kind of power over how others play? Why is it such a big issue for you? This is a really common opinion i see from you - play how i want you to play, or, in your words, you deserve to 'get shit on'.

    You have the right to play how you want, and so do the other players. You have the right to not play with them, and i would recommend that would be a better solution than "shitting on" people because they dont play to your personal standard.
    Moving your character incorrectly and body pulling by stupid mistake is not a gameplay style.
    Being a melee DPS and fat fingering your taunt during your dps rotation 5 times in a row is not a gameplay style.
    Thinking you put all your talent points in passives and forgetting to put 2 active abilities in your bar is not a gameplay style.
    Wearing strength stat stick trinkets as a mage to boost your ilvl is not a gameplay style.
    Facing the wrong way when you use frostwyrm or barrage is not a gameplay style.
    Seeing 8 mobs die in one spot and dropping sanguine then getting 1 shot when walking over it is not a gameplay style.
    Chain pulling when the healer has no mana is not a gameplay style.
    Fighting with your fishing rod on for 5 pull is not a gameplay style.

    Should I go on or you start to get it?
    I don't want to people to "play my way", I want them to play decently according to the standards implemented by the game design itself. That's all I want. It's extremely fucking simple.

    I consider all of the things mentioned above to be on the same level of retardation as seeing the toilet cover down, still deciding to sit on it and taking a shit that just splashes everywhere.

    I'm not asking for everyone to be a world first mythic raider. I just want the basics to be done well by everyone, that's really not asking much man. It's not super elite to move your character correctly so you don't body pull. And it's also not a play style, it's just common knowledge everyone at this level should have. We can have fun finding out the new aggro range in SL dungeons when we get there, but if you're a keystone master, fucking act like one.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Moving your character incorrectly and body pulling by stupid mistake is not a gameplay style.
    Being a melee DPS and fat fingering your taunt during your dps rotation 5 times in a row is not a gameplay style.
    Thinking you put all your talent points in passives and forgetting to put 2 active abilities in your bar is not a gameplay style.
    Wearing strength stat stick trinkets as a mage to boost your ilvl is not a gameplay style.
    Facing the wrong way when you use frostwyrm or barrage is not a gameplay style.
    Seeing 8 mobs die in one spot and dropping sanguine then getting 1 shot when walking over it is not a gameplay style.
    Chain pulling when the healer has no mana is not a gameplay style.
    Fighting with your fishing rod on for 5 pull is not a gameplay style.
    Now quote the part where i once said "gameplay style". Because otherwise, this is clearly what is referred to as a strawman argument. See every single point you raised, apparently to respond to them? Quote where i mentioned a single one of them, otherwise, this is clearly what is referred to as..................a strawman argument.

  13. #153
    I will say the community is become less promiscuous, I use to average like 5-10 different hook-ups an expansion. Seriously you could always convince someone to come out to Vegas for a weekend. I believe though the toxic nature of society as a whole has bleed in and poisoned the World of Warcraft, but I also believe the gaming community as a whole has greatly diversified compared to when I first started gaming.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Moving your character incorrectly and body pulling by stupid mistake is not a gameplay style.
    Being a melee DPS and fat fingering your taunt during your dps rotation 5 times in a row is not a gameplay style.
    Thinking you put all your talent points in passives and forgetting to put 2 active abilities in your bar is not a gameplay style.
    Wearing strength stat stick trinkets as a mage to boost your ilvl is not a gameplay style.
    Facing the wrong way when you use frostwyrm or barrage is not a gameplay style.
    Seeing 8 mobs die in one spot and dropping sanguine then getting 1 shot when walking over it is not a gameplay style.
    Chain pulling when the healer has no mana is not a gameplay style.
    Fighting with your fishing rod on for 5 pull is not a gameplay style.

    Should I go on or you start to get it?
    I don't want to people to "play my way", I want them to play decently according to the standards implemented by the game design itself. That's all I want. It's extremely fucking simple.

    I consider all of the things mentioned above to be on the same level of retardation as seeing the toilet cover down, still deciding to sit on it and taking a shit that just splashes everywhere.

    I'm not asking for everyone to be a world first mythic raider. I just want the basics to be done well by everyone, that's really not asking much man. It's not super elite to move your character correctly so you don't body pull. And it's also not a play style, it's just common knowledge everyone at this level should have. We can have fun finding out the new aggro range in SL dungeons when we get there, but if you're a keystone master, fucking act like one.
    You realize that by overreacting and straw manning what he said, you are proving his point that people have a really nasty and antisocial hang up about dictating how other people play.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Moving your character incorrectly and body pulling by stupid mistake is not a gameplay style.
    Being a melee DPS and fat fingering your taunt during your dps rotation 5 times in a row is not a gameplay style.
    Thinking you put all your talent points in passives and forgetting to put 2 active abilities in your bar is not a gameplay style.
    Wearing strength stat stick trinkets as a mage to boost your ilvl is not a gameplay style.
    Facing the wrong way when you use frostwyrm or barrage is not a gameplay style.
    Seeing 8 mobs die in one spot and dropping sanguine then getting 1 shot when walking over it is not a gameplay style.
    Chain pulling when the healer has no mana is not a gameplay style.
    Fighting with your fishing rod on for 5 pull is not a gameplay style.

    Should I go on or you start to get it?
    I don't want to people to "play my way", I want them to play decently according to the standards implemented by the game design itself. That's all I want. It's extremely fucking simple.

    I consider all of the things mentioned above to be on the same level of retardation as seeing the toilet cover down, still deciding to sit on it and taking a shit that just splashes everywhere.

    I'm not asking for everyone to be a world first mythic raider. I just want the basics to be done well by everyone, that's really not asking much man. It's not super elite to move your character correctly so you don't body pull. And it's also not a play style, it's just common knowledge everyone at this level should have. We can have fun finding out the new aggro range in SL dungeons when we get there, but if you're a keystone master, fucking act like one.
    Talk about creating a straw man argument after being proven wrong. This is just plain embarrassing. Is there really a need to abuse other people because they don't meet your abirtary standards?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  16. #156
    When BLIZ began introducing cross-realm functions, it really helped out a lot of players but it also began a gradual disconnect from a sense community and server reputation, and made it increasingly easy to be a jerk to people with no consequences. BLIZ also does nothing about toxicity in their game. Most other companies at least attempt to control it, and those with really harsh or swift policies, have very little trouble.

    Another certain game I can think of, they are very ban happy and screwing over other players has immediate and painful consequences. End result? The game is very much "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" and no one acts out because even their actions, without anything said in chat, can trigger retaliation from the mods.

    Personally on WoW, I barely talk to anyone but if you whisper me or engage me for some reason, as long as you're being civil you'll find me friendly and responsive, generally. Unless it's just some random whisper that doesn't really warrant a response. I think games should be an escape from stress and bullshit so I try to be pleasant to people I meet or at the least, civil.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Bbrigham View Post
    why do you think people are so toxic?
    Entertainment

    I mean, it doesn't help.
    If the person on the receiving end can dish it back then it's pretty funny lol

    It doesn't add to the fun of others.
    Depends again on the receiving end person, I take toxic comments as a chance to make jokes Though I take all comments as a chance to make jokes

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TSM View Post
    Because of this (and the implications of internet anonymity):

    I would strongly suggest this not to be anyones reason, you can be found if you upset the wrong person lol.
    My Collection
    - Bring back my damn zoom distance/MoP Portals - I read OP minimum, 1st page maximum-make wow alt friendly again -Please post constructively(topkek) -Kill myself

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    Moving your character incorrectly and body pulling by stupid mistake is not a gameplay style.
    Being a melee DPS and fat fingering your taunt during your dps rotation 5 times in a row is not a gameplay style.
    Thinking you put all your talent points in passives and forgetting to put 2 active abilities in your bar is not a gameplay style.
    Wearing strength stat stick trinkets as a mage to boost your ilvl is not a gameplay style.
    Facing the wrong way when you use frostwyrm or barrage is not a gameplay style.
    Seeing 8 mobs die in one spot and dropping sanguine then getting 1 shot when walking over it is not a gameplay style.
    Chain pulling when the healer has no mana is not a gameplay style.
    Fighting with your fishing rod on for 5 pull is not a gameplay style.
    To reply to your obviously straw man point. Are you telling me that you never ever done any of those things? Or similar things? You always play perfectly with a millimeter precision? Even the world's best professionals make stupid mistakes from time to time. Lewis Hamilton lost the Italian GP this year, because he had a brain fart and missed 2 obvious red lights that told him that the pit lane was closed. That guy is a 6-time world champion. Arguably the best there ever was.

  19. #159
    Banned CrawlFromThePit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    In some places, there is. An independent adjudicator. If you work in a workplace that values diversity, there is usually someone that is appointed to that role, either internal or external.



    That kinds of prove some of my point. You seems to suggest that because no offensive was intended, then it is not an attack. You are deciding, not the recipient. And if the recipient is having trouble with that, it is their problem. Shifting the blame to them for your behavior.
    I'm gonna explain to you something very sad that is happening in our society right now and this is related to the first thing you said here.

    We live in the cancel era, where it has become extremely common to throw a fit the instant someone says something that is bellow 100% positive on the "feeling scale". It's literally a trend, people are actively looking at old messages, tweets and shit where people said something not 100% positive. And often taken out of context. It has become "normal" to take the side of the first person who cries, and gang up against the "bad guy" who said the message (again, regardless of context or intent).

    This has spread to the gaming community in the form of crying against all form of negative behavior no matter what it is (even if it was prompted by an even worse behavior from the whiner), and we're calling this toxic, and we should all accept that the person reporting the offense is INSTANTLY RIGHT. Victim, police, judge and jury in one person. Most report systems online are automated, a lot of people found that out, so if you play with group of friends and you're man enough to say something, you might just get cancelled. Gone are the times of just getting kicked, now they use you for the run cuz if they kick you they can't finish in time, and chances are if you're telling them they suck, you're probably carrying them and that infuriates them (incorrect behavior on their part obviously).

    There is not a single thing in the entire system that teaches these people that they are wrong. Why? In the vast majority of these cases, the person who cries against toxicity is very fragile and will just complain more until they get what they want, and the person who plays the role of the bad guy here (without actually being bad) is usually someone with a much thicker skin, it's easier for them to handle the situation of being wrongly accused than it is for the fragile person to accept the fact that they over reacted to something nearly meaningless. (again I want to reiterate that I'm talking about the issues of people calling toxicity over benign stuff, not the very rare cases of caps lock insult spamming crazy mongo)

    This combination manipulates any form of "independent adjudicator" to have a bias towards the "victim". Not to mention that this kind of job is literally created to reinforce the concept of safe space to begin with. There never was any intention to give this job the task of educating fragile people on how to toughen up and handle typical disagreements or small negative comments on their own like we did 20-30 years ago.

    Now we get to the part of "why are people more fragile than before?"
    That's because we live a life so comfortable and so easy that our threshold of resistance lowered drastically.
    You probably heard this quote that describes our society to a T:
    Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.
    In the past few years we've been in the transition to the last part of this cycle. There's weak men everywhere, and times fucking suck (and I'm not talking about Covid, even if this actually exposed how weak men are today).

    This cycles all the way to the idea that we're trying to have it easy again and the easy way out of "toxic" interactions is to comfort the victim and punish the aggressor without analyzing what really happened. And instantly assuming that it really is a situation of victim vs aggressor and not just 2 people talking like it existed since centuries ago.
    So when you say:
    You seems to suggest that because no offensive was intended, then it is not an attack. You are deciding, not the recipient. And if the recipient is having trouble with that, it is their problem.
    My answer is yes and no. Yes the offense is only an offense if that was the intent, and no I'm not "suggesting", I'm informing you of what things are in a neutral reality devoid of the "weak men bias" of our current cancel era.
    Just like I'm sure you've heard or seen or experienced this situation, when you compliment someone in a weird way and they first get mad about it and you have to explain them that it was meant as a compliment. Something along the lines of "you look like X person" and the listener is like "what!?!? screw you" and you have to explain that you think this person looks cool so it's a compliment, then the listener changes their mind (which is easy in this case because it's a natural positive situation). But the exact same concept applies if you turn this situation into a "negative" and this is where it gets tricky.
    Example:
    You run a dungeon and there's a warrior with the same ilvl and kind of gear you're used to seeing but the guy does less than half the dps he should be doing. It's not toxic to say "you're definitely not playing correctly dude". It's called being truthful, honest and real. You're free to not say anything but that's basically enabling his potential belief that he's playing correctly and maybe he's blaming "having the wrong stats" or some meaningless things like that. Or even worse be nice or compliment him which then just REINFORCES his incorrect beliefs about his gameplay. At least if you mention that there's a problem, he should acknowledge it, ask for help or something. I've been in situations where the conversation was nice and helpful, but that's not the subject here. We're talking about those who will take the "you're definitely not playing correctly" as a personal attack and instead of considering that it's probably true, they want the person to shut up and never talk to them again and die in a fire.
    That's where the broken report systems come into play, and the independent adjudicator and all that. Just because the "victim" felt attacked when it was not an attack, but rather just a statement to point out a problem that needs to be fixed. You can even replace that comment by a direct suggestion of how to fix the dps problem and the reaction of the "victim" could have been the same.
    This ties into:
    Shifting the blame to them for your behavior.
    There was no shifting. The blame was always on the guy doing shit dps. His poor performance is what prompted someone to say something about it, the source of the problem (person to blame) is the person doing bad dps. If he was doing the dps he should be doing, no one would have said anything negative. This is part of the weak men society where the attempts to feel good require a high tolerance for mediocrity, which is easier, but more destructive, than owning our problems and fixing them the right way.

    Now keep in mind, I'm not saying this kind of situation should apply to EVERY instances of "toxicity", there's real cases of crazy toxicity like I said many times before. I'm just saying the light stuff shouldn't be called toxic as much as it currently is, and this is caused by the society catering to weak men we live in. Toughening up is only a massive gain for everyone's mental and physical health, there's no reason to fight against that and unconsciously supporting/enabling our own pathetic regression.


    TLDR; there's a social bias that encourages taking the side of the first person who cries first without analyzing the entire situation, and to not try to reason with this person because we live in an era of weak men who are mostly unreasonable because they were never raised to be tough enough to admit their own faults.
    Last edited by CrawlFromThePit; 2020-09-21 at 02:50 AM.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by CrawlFromThePit View Post
    I'm gonna explain to you something very sad that is happening in our society right now and this is related to the first thing you said here...
    Sorry. I had to snip the rest of that blog post. What's really happening in society is people not taking responsibility for their actions.

    You act toxic as hell on a forum, you post strawman after strawman, you get called out for it by the community and you still try to tell people what to think with your blog?

    This is what is wrong. People blindly telling other people what to do and when they get called out for it they move goalposts and then start blogging about other things altogether. This is just embarrassing now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

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