Covenants system is pointless

[Cosmic Janitor]

Why do covs even exist?

As a narrative device they are kind of interesting, it's just too bad that they forgot to tell their story writers to write a story that makes sense for the already pointless gameplay system that they offer. I won't even go into how much of a perpetual failure they are in regards to system engineering - like the last 5 systems that Blizzard massively failed to properly design.

[Kaver]

I can confirm this. There is some form of RP while we do the campaign (mostly leveling) but after that, RPG elements are few and scarce. You could compare that to Garrisson at most. Nowhere can I find the exitement of Blizzard about meaningfull choice and Covenant intrication. Do you remember patch 8.2 when we got meiningfull outworld interaction with professions ? It's on par.
Outside of transmog/mount, I wouldn't base my covenant choice on RPG elements. And I don't even intent to mythic raid in SL.

The unfortunate reality is that the average player without beta access is not going to realize this until after October 26/27.

[Tesshin83]

Imagine if they put the amount of effort that affects class balance from new systems into actual talents, abilities and more permanent ways to strengthen your character. I get it, putting a point into "chance to increase haste by 60" or giving *everyone* the same new ability or some other boring stuff is really fun and rewarding. Definitely not a "easier to balance" thing.

Thats a horrible idea because then they have to prune it every other expansion. This is what we used to have and it i did not work.

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The unfortunate reality is that the average player without beta access is not going to realize this until after October 26/27.

Me and many others that have beta access would disagree with that statement.

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They are RPG element, you're right. But the point is that it is far from enough compared to what Blizzard have sold it as. You already see people calling covenants "sub-classes" which is so far from the reality. But it shows that the Marketing of Blizzard works. Only the people who have played the Beta knows what covenants REALLY are.

I think all the heat that the players who critique the covenants are getting is misplaced. The truth is that the top 1% wont be very affected by the covenants because they will just sim and pick the best choice. Simple. But what players with beta access know is that this covenants are going to be very disappointing for the average WoW player. Because they doesn't live up to what they were sold as. Just like Island Expeditions and Warfronts in BFA. These features were also sold as "Grand Events" but the average WoW player is not really playing them out of enjoyment.

Thats not the sentiment among people who have beta access.

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they're exactly what we get every xpac

rebranded and more annoying

we got an extra talent line, we got more passive talents (its almost like they have to keep compensating for them anemic talent trees) a few mounts and tmog sets locked behind a rep grind

none of this is new and exciting at all

What would be exciting for you? I am actually curious what something exciting would look like to you

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Convenants are pretty bad, sure people that have the mindset of; i dont give a fuck whether i do 10 dps or 1000, whether i step in pvp with 10 disadvantages rather then 5, or boss 1,4,7 u good at, but the rest u suck cause of convenant choice Sure those people wont mind. Id like to be the verry best i can be, for myself and my team. So no this system i do NOT like, and thats fine. Ill do what i can, but i wont defend this system and pretend its great, and it adds meaningful choices. Its like asking whether u wanna be killed with a knife or a bullet. Theirs no meaningful choice there is there?

Ever considered you are playing the wrong game for a mindset like that? Why not try CS:Go?

[Kaver]

Me and many others that have beta access would disagree with that statement.

Thats not the sentiment among people who have beta access.

Would you be so kind to give specific examples of how the covenants are greatly increasing RPG throughout the Shadowlands based on your beta experience?

[Tesshin83]

Covenants used to be meaningful choice when it was orginally permanent. Then you have to live with your choice. The good and the bad. And you had to play around the downsides because parts of your character are actually not changeable.

Then the usual minority start complaining about the horror of not being optimal in every single situation so now thet made it easier to switch them.

They allready catered to the people who look for any silly excuse to complain about anything. And their arguments are unvalid.

The choice is now less of an RPG feel because it has no consequence. I can just switch if I dont iike it.

Its funny how people dont even know what RPG is.

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Would you be so kind to give specific examples of how the covenants are greatly increasing RPG throughout the Shadowlands based on your beta experience?

Well before they made it easy to switch it was something that was permanent about you that made you different from the paladin to next to you.

By having picked a covenent that made you play it slightly differently and you look different, come from a different story and you would be bad in certain situations compared to the other paladin and better in others.

Permanent choice gives the feel of RPG because it resembles IRL where you have certain things about you that you cant change and you have to work around them. Working around being left handed, or born in another country or being slightly less intelligent is what gives life meaning.

I could go on and on.

However, you can switch every other week now so not much a permanent choice any more.

[Atharaxie]

I would include the weekly activity in that consideration. It's gonna be frustrating if you don't like what they have you do on the regular.

Do you mean tending to my sylvarden garden or looking for parts to add to my abomination ? (Haven't done Bastion/Revendreth yet)
There could be something else I missed, things aren't always very clear.
My fear is that Blizzard is labelling everything that isn't meaningfull to PVE/PVP as "RPG".

I don't advocate for or against PVP/RP/PVE. But I trully believe that Blizzard is promoting some sort of clivage between "filthy casual" vs "elitist neck beard". Telling one side they can't get what they want because the other side is demanding too. But truth is that currently in the beta (Eta 6 weeks) there is none. Balancing is inexistant because stars allign for certain class/specs while some have to get what they can and sacrifice conduit for ability or M+ for raid. And RPG elements are meaningless. Legion class hall was more palatable. Weekly activity only means that you get access to 1/4 the content unless you play 3 more alts.

Don't get fooled by Blizzard PR, at the time, both sides are getting scamed by Covenant and Blizzard is blaming player eagerness for this.

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However, you can switch every other week now so not much a permanent choice any more.

That is worst of both world. It kills covenant identity if you don't have to stick to your initial (or second) choice.
It doesn't solve the problem of players wanting to be Kyrian in M+, Necrolord in PvP and Venthyr in raid to get the most of each conduit/abilities.

Blizzard failed to content both min/maxer and RPG afficionados. But they managed to antagonize them both. Even on this forum, they are at each other throat.

[huth]

I guess my questions is more based on "What is the meaning?".

What is the meaning of choosing between power and aesthetics?

What is the meaning of choose between M+ and raiding?

Forcing you to consider which you actually want more. You know, this thing called "making a choice".

*Not meaningful in terms of RPG value.

Pointlessly vague and far to subjective to be a valid point.

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That is worst of both world. It kills covenant identity if you don't have to stick to your initial (or second) choice.
It doesn't solve the problem of players wanting to be Kyrian in M+, Necrolord in PvP and Venthyr in raid to get the most of each conduit/abilities.

Nah, it works just fine as a deterrent to frequent switching. Permanently locking people in isn't really a valid option when the game is constantly subject to change.

[Kaver]

Forcing you to consider which you actually want more. You know, this thing called "making a choice".

But why do I have to make that choice? What good comes from it? Why do I have to consider if I like raiding more than M+ or the other way around. Why cant I just like them both and want to play them both on an optimal character? I can see that we are making a choice, but I cannot see how that choice is making the game better.

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Covenants used to be meaningful choice when it was orginally permanent. Then you have to live with your choice. The good and the bad. And you had to play around the downsides because parts of your character are actually not changeable.

Then the usual minority start complaining about the horror of not being optimal in every single situation so now thet made it easier to switch them.

They allready catered to the people who look for any silly excuse to complain about anything. And their arguments are unvalid.

The choice is now less of an RPG feel because it has no consequence. I can just switch if I dont iike it.

Its funny how people dont even know what RPG is.

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Well before they made it easy to switch it was something that was permanent about you that made you different from the paladin to next to you.

By having picked a covenent that made you play it slightly differently and you look different, come from a different story and you would be bad in certain situations compared to the other paladin and better in others.

Permanent choice gives the feel of RPG because it resembles IRL where you have certain things about you that you cant change and you have to work around them. Working around being left handed, or born in another country or being slightly less intelligent is what gives life meaning.

I could go on and on.

However, you can switch every other week now so not much a permanent choice any more.

But the permanent choice and the difference between the two paladins would still boil down to transmog and 2 abilities. Comparing that to how Blizzard have sold the system is night and day. The difference between the Paladins in terms of RPG should be much greater.

It's insane to me that some people call covenants for sub-classes. 2 abilities do not amount to a sub-class.

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Pointlessly vague and far to subjective to be a valid point.

I don't think it's subjective at all.

If you walk around the shadowlands and there is almost no difference between being a Kyrian or a Venthyr then that is not what Blizzard sold the system as. Blizzard said the covenants will be part of our identities. So we should feel that when playing the game.

[NineSpine]

Most mythic raiders are casual.

No, they are not.

[Inukashi]

This is false.

The people who are against the covenants are people who have played the beta and know that Blizzard have sold the covenants based on fallacies.

The majority of the playerbase just haven't experienced the covenants yet so they don't know any better. But they will once the game releases. The covenants are nothing close to what Blizzard said they would be and this is going to disappoint a lot of people. The truth is that the few "elitists circle jerks" as you call them, wont even care about the covenants because they are just going to work around them. The people who will get upset are the normal players who expect to get a meaningful RP choice because this is what Blizzard have told them they would get. Just like they told the normal players that Island Expeditions and Warfronts were going to be awesome. But they weren't.

.

I'm wasn't talking about the rp part. I was only takling about the soulbinds and class abilities. People are upset that they can't switch them whenever they want because one ability is stronger in raids, another would be better in m+. Some even want to swap covenant abilities between fights, like talents.
People are creating problems for themselves. There is always someone who is better in AoE and Classes that are better in single target dps or utility.
You pick a class at the start of the game because you want to be a stealthy single target guy or some AoE caster. Same with covenant abilities.

The only thing blizzard will learn from this is "Dont't give the players any choice. Making decisions does only upset them, because they can't have everything."

[huth]

But why do I have to make that choice? What good comes from it? Why do I have to consider if I like raiding more than M+ or the other way around. Why cant I just like them both and want to play them both on an optimal character? I can see that we are making a choice, but I cannot see how that choice is making the game better.

Player agency. What you do actually has a lasting impact on things. And you can do that... you just have to use two seperate characters.

Your problem comes down to "why can't i have everything", and the answer to that is simply "because then there'd be no game".

[Redroniksre]

Again, I think it is misplaced to call it a "whine fit".

Yes players who care about performance are worried about the system. But do also remember that Blizzard themselves are creating the content where performance really matters. Blizzard are creating the Mythic raid bosses and the +30 M+ dungeons. They are the ones creating this demanding content where balance is most important. So it's a bit hypocritical of Blizzard to create this insanely tuned content but at the same time tell the players that they should not worry too much about performance.

If Blizzard are going down this route then they should honestly stop making incredibly difficult content. If they don't want players to change talents etc. between bosses then they should go back to the vanilla/bc level of difficulty. They cannot make boss fights like mythic kil'jaeden and at the same time expect people to not min-max. It's not fair.

I mean the content is not going to require specific covenant-class combos, they simply won't balance around that because that would be incredibly stupid. Will it bring big advantages if you have your entire comp at their best? Sure, but you will still be able to kill the boss without those specifics, though it may take you longer as you will need to gear past that. In the end this system will affect them like every other borrowed power system does, they pick the best and go with it.

[Malania]

This has been discussed to death. Blizzard have stated it's going ahead regardless. There was no "ripcord". Really the best you can hope for at this point is it not turning out like Azerite armour and needing 3 systems tacked on to "fix" the first broken on.

[Dire]

lol.. i see the MMO Champion forums are still a basket of whining jerkoffs. LOL

[Unholyground]

That is why I am glad gear is gear again at the very least and there is much less of it to obtain.

[Passanius]

They should have made the four "main" spells into a new talent at 60(or drop it to three talents, maybe also easier to balance). Then just make the covenant a cosmetic choice.
If someone wants to keep conduits, make them the same for all covenants(again, maybe also easier to balance).

Now everyone has everything of both worlds. meaningful choice and flexibility.

[NineSpine]

They should have made the four "main" spells into a new talent at 60(or drop it to three talents, maybe also easier to balance). Then just make the covenant a cosmetic choice.
If someone wants to keep conduits, make them the same for all covenants(again, maybe also easier to balance).

Now everyone has everything of both worlds. meaningful choice and flexibility.

Make everything identical and pointless. Got it.

[Nyel]

It absolutely is useless as it'll get removed in the next expansion. That's the epitome of a borrowed power.

[Passanius]

Make everything identical and pointless. Got it.

No the visuals and stories of the four covenants would still be different. It also lessens the borrowed power impact if we get a new talent row with interesting active abilities.

[Whiskeyjac]

They should of made a new talent row. I think even as blizzard is hurtling towards the launch day they have realized how badly they overestimated themselves... nothing is balanced yet with a little over a month left.

They bit of more then they could chew but I honestly think they invested to much into the system to #pulltheripcord... I expect this to be the wackiest and easiest tier in the game since naxx in wrath. Everything is easy... nothing is balanced and covenant choices when you factor in conduits and everything involved with that make up 30-60% power differences between them.

Blizzard need to pull a rabbit out of their hat for this to work... never mind they haven't even tested pvp yet.