1. #14701
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    This is something that just astounds me. In Scotland we have the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner, an independent body set up to investigate allegations of misconduct by police officers. I know in England and Wales they have something similar. From the best of my knowledge, these bodies are made up mostly of lawyers, I think there is civilian representation too, the point being it is not entirely made up of cops. I genuinely did not know until recently that there wasn't something like this in the US, at least not in all states, and I was genuinely shocked by this.

    I am by no means an ACAB person. While I think these people are often legitimately angry and point out very real flaws, I think this position is at best childish, and the gymnastics that are often performed to justify this, often as being literally true (we can see people in here, people I consider intelligent and usually capable of nuanced thought make these claims) are just absurd, and we tend to see them come out with insane ideas like defund the police (even if you disagree with my contention that this is insane, it is certainly not unreasonable to object to this, only a zealot would assert this, sadly the overly emotional reasoning that comes out with the ACAB mean there are more than a few zealots) and even abolish the police (yes, I know it is only a minority that call for this, however they get a worrying amount of cover, if the reasons why this is a terrible idea aren't obvious to you, then I don't know what to say). People get heated and can make suggestions/demands that either tread close to, or flat out dive in head first into the crazy zone.

    However there are clearly very simple, straight forward things that can be done, that aren't insane or extremely detrimental to society, and an independent board that investigates police misconduct, that isn't made up of cops, that do not answer to the police, or to police unions and is transparent in its decision making is such a great example of this, I have yet to hear a reasonable objection to this suggestion, and it amazed me that this wasn't already in place. It is a policy that should get the backing of most reasonable people, regardless of which isle they are on. People who want to through their support behind the cops, having a body like this to better ensure decent and lawful behaviour and to help enforce standards in policing should welcome this. This is something that is much harder to abuse, much harder to succumb to corruption than internal investigations as they don't have the same conflict of interests or conflicted loyalties.

    Out of the reasonable suggestions I have heard, this ranks among the easiest.
    It seems you are ignoring what people are saying about defunding. And just making up your mind based not on what people said

    Come on and tell us what’s so crazy

  2. #14702
    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    This is something that just astounds me. In Scotland we have the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner, an independent body set up to investigate allegations of misconduct by police officers. I know in England and Wales they have something similar. From the best of my knowledge, these bodies are made up mostly of lawyers, I think there is civilian representation too, the point being it is not entirely made up of cops. I genuinely did not know until recently that there wasn't something like this in the US, at least not in all states, and I was genuinely shocked by this.

    I am by no means an ACAB person. While I think these people are often legitimately angry and point out very real flaws, I think this position is at best childish, and the gymnastics that are often performed to justify this, often as being literally true (we can see people in here, people I consider intelligent and usually capable of nuanced thought make these claims) are just absurd, and we tend to see them come out with insane ideas like defund the police (even if you disagree with my contention that this is insane, it is certainly not unreasonable to object to this, only a zealot would assert this, sadly the overly emotional reasoning that comes out with the ACAB mean there are more than a few zealots) and even abolish the police (yes, I know it is only a minority that call for this, however they get a worrying amount of cover, if the reasons why this is a terrible idea aren't obvious to you, then I don't know what to say). People get heated and can make suggestions/demands that either tread close to, or flat out dive in head first into the crazy zone.

    However there are clearly very simple, straight forward things that can be done, that aren't insane or extremely detrimental to society, and an independent board that investigates police misconduct, that isn't made up of cops, that do not answer to the police, or to police unions and is transparent in its decision making is such a great example of this, I have yet to hear a reasonable objection to this suggestion, and it amazed me that this wasn't already in place. It is a policy that should get the backing of most reasonable people, regardless of which isle they are on. People who want to through their support behind the cops, having a body like this to better ensure decent and lawful behaviour and to help enforce standards in policing should welcome this. This is something that is much harder to abuse, much harder to succumb to corruption than internal investigations as they don't have the same conflict of interests or conflicted loyalties.

    Out of the reasonable suggestions I have heard, this ranks among the easiest.
    Yeah, I don't know why they think doing internal investigations, or doing investigations with District Attorneys that are almost cops themselves with how much they work with cops on cases, it isn't transparent or independent. Some will hand their investigations off, but most won't.

  3. #14703
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Yeah, I don't know why they think doing internal investigations, or doing investigations with District Attorneys that are almost cops themselves with how much they work with cops on cases, it isn't transparent or independent. Some will hand their investigations off, but most won't.
    "We have investigated ourselves and found we were not guilty of any wrongdoing. No further investigation is necessary. Our investigation records did not result in any indictments, so they are sealed as they contain sensitive information regarding ongoing cases."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Woods View Post
    LOL never change guys. I guess you won't because conservatism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostpanther View Post
    I do care what people on this forum think of me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    This site is amazing. It's comments like this, that make this site amazing.

  4. #14704
    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    "We have investigated ourselves and found we were not guilty of any wrongdoing. No further investigation is necessary. Our investigation records did not result in any indictments, so they are sealed as they contain sensitive information regarding ongoing cases."
    Exactly. The fact that they can investigate themselves and find no wrongdoing, means that I don't trust anything they say or do. Especially when you watch some of these videos where they investigate themselves, and give a slap on the wrist to a cop that murders someone like George Floyd and whatnot.

  5. #14705
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is nonsense.

    The "bad apple" idiom goes "one bad apple spoils the whole bunch."

    And when those "bad apples" are not aggressively and immediately removed from duty and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for every single possible abuse of force, with the entire police force turning against them and providing them no support whatsoever, then we're not talking "some bad apples". Every member of that force is a "bad apple", just by virtue of supporting and defending the other "bad apples".

    This is kind of the point of the idiom.
    Going by this logic all those "peaceful protesters" out there are also 100% violent rioters since they also practice what you describe here, and in much larger % compared to police cases of misbehaviour.

    Not that I agree, I think you're insane. This stance is ridiculous, it completely discounts the human element.
    [Infraction]
    Last edited by Rozz; 2020-09-21 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Minor Flaming

  6. #14706
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    Going by this logic all those "peaceful protesters" out there are also 100% violent rioters since they also practice what you describe here, and in much larger % compared to police cases of misbehaviour.

    Not that I agree, I think you're insane. This stance is ridiculous, it completely discounts the human element.
    Except, I can probably link you dozens of videos of other protesters stopping the rioters or turning them in. While if a cop turns in another guy in his precinct, that cop is usually fired or subjected to so much harassment they quit, or in some cases, get killed. There isn't a thing similar to the "blue wall of silence" amongst protesters.

  7. #14707
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Except, I can probably link you dozens of videos of other protesters stopping the rioters or turning them in. While if a cop turns in another guy in his precinct, that cop is usually fired or subjected to so much harassment they quit, or in some cases, get killed. There isn't a thing similar to the "blue wall of silence" amongst protesters.
    So you do agree that some police officers did try to turn in "bad apple"? And you do realize that you proved his point ? They are not all corrupted.

  8. #14708
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So you do agree that some police officers did try to turn in "bad apple"? And you do realize that you proved his point ? They are not all corrupted.
    There are so few that do, that it doesn't make a difference. And again, there is no "blue wall of silence" when it comes to protesters, but there is for the Police.

    Again, if they aren't turning their fellow officers in when they witness crimes, then they are just as bad as the ones that do commit crimes.

  9. #14709
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    There are so few that do, that it doesn't make a difference. And again, there is no "blue wall of silence" when it comes to protesters, but there is for the Police.

    Again, if they aren't turning their fellow officers in when they witness crimes, then they are just as bad as the ones that do commit crimes.
    Yeah sure. Let's fire them all.

    On a serous note, how does that go in other countries?

    Maybe you should make sure that each incident is properly investigated with a proper independant service. This is where you should start.

    If you take an extremist stance as you are currently, you can be sure you will get an extremist response. You stance just removed the human part of it, most cops do not report the others because they are afraid of losing their jobs, plain and simple.

  10. #14710
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yeah sure. Let's fire them all.

    On a serous note, how does that go in other countries?

    Maybe you should make sure that each incident is properly investigated with a proper independant service. This is where you should start.

    If you take an extremist stance as you are currently, you can be sure you will get an extremist response. You stance just removed the human part of it, most cops do not report the others because they are afraid of losing their jobs, plain and simple.
    Camden, New Jersey actually did that. They fired most of their cops and started over. They got rid of the cops with lots of excessive force complaints. And have fewer excessive force complaints since they overhauled their police departments.

    And I agree with you, they need to have an independent investigation away from Internal Affairs and DAs that work with the cops on a daily basis.

    I am not taking an extremist stance, as the extremist stance is to get rid of the cops entirely, which no one is advocating for. I have asked for the independent stuff in previous posts, literally like 2 days ago.

  11. #14711
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Except, I can probably link you dozens of videos of other protesters stopping the rioters or turning them in.
    I can probably do the same with cops. Your point?

    Also, "dozens", haha, no.

    While if a cop turns in another guy in his precinct, that cop is usually fired or subjected to so much harassment they quit, or in some cases, get killed. There isn't a thing similar to the "blue wall of silence" amongst protesters.
    This narrative that the police force is evil is just so detestable. I don't get what you guys hope to accomplish.

  12. #14712
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    I can probably do the same with cops. Your point?

    Also, "dozens", haha, no.



    This narrative that the police force is evil is just so detestable. I don't get what you guys hope to accomplish.
    If they aren't reporting or testifying against the cops they see doing illegal things, then yes, they are evil.

  13. #14713
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So you do agree that some police officers did try to turn in "bad apple"? And you do realize that you proved his point ? They are not all corrupted.
    Some officers try to and end up fired, harrassed, on desk duty, facing DEATH THREATHS misuse of office equipment to research and then harass them and their families.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Yeah sure. Let's fire them all.

    On a serous note, how does that go in other countries?

    Maybe you should make sure that each incident is properly investigated with a proper independant service. This is where you should start.

    If you take an extremist stance as you are currently, you can be sure you will get an extremist response. You stance just removed the human part of it, most cops do not report the others because they are afraid of losing their jobs, plain and simple.
    This is a silly argument you have.

    "YOU CAN'T FIRE THEM ALL you need to have investigated from the outside"

    FBI and DHS has found that many departments have people who are either in or sympathise with groups the FBI deems as terror threats at the same time the FBI says they have a first amendment right to be part of those groups. The fuck do you do with officers who want to literally end your existence in the country?

  14. #14714
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    If they aren't reporting or testifying against the cops they see doing illegal things, then yes, they are evil.
    Do you consider protesters who hide/don't report or testify against rioters who do illegal things evil? I suspect that the answer to this would be no, and you will give me reasons as to why this doesn't apply to the side you support, but does to the side you oppose. I don't know what the precise nature of that answer will look like, so I will leave that to you. Or I could be wrong entirely, in which case my bad.

    I ask this not to pick a fight, I think on many things we are in broad agreement with, such as the need for an independent body to investigate the police, that isn't made up of cops, is not answerable to the police and is transparent in their decision making. And I think we are both in agreement that some fundamental changes need to happen with policing, we might disagree on what some of these are, however I think we certainly agree on what some of those should be. My point is that I am genuinely not trying to be adversarial.

    I think there can be a problem with using overly emotional language, such as evil. I understand it, it is born out of anger, out of disgust, however I am not sure how helpful this is, and I genuinely feel that in viewing this as good v evil, it becomes very difficult to see people on the other side as human and I think this is bad. In suggesting this, I want to be clear, I am not suggesting for a second that I am above this. We can all fall into this trap. I have a hard time not doing it with some elements of the protesters. There are elements within the protest movements that frankly scare me, and I feel that more reasonable elements do not do enough to counter them and to disown them, and tend to gaslight them out of existence, insisting that it is simply a far right conspiracy, or that it is so minor that it can be ignored- I won't lie I get angry with these people. It scares me further how the far right, and see Trump doing this, will insist that these extreme elements are representative of the entire movement, and will point to an alleged lack of meaningful and sincere public denouncement by peaceful protesters, as evidence that they are just as bad, that they are enablers. I think it is safe to assume that as we get closer to the election, this rhetoric will be ramped up, a vote for Trump is a vote for law and order, a vote for Biden is a vote for anarchy, burning buildings, pissed covered streets and looting, and frankly I think it will work, and I think it will be a disaster for the USA.

    It does frustrate me that more sane elements can't/won't see this. They demand the police act in a way that too many on their own side are unwilling to do (e.g. get their house in order). And sometimes, to my shame, I start seeing the wider movements in the same way I see the lunatic wings, my frustration colours my view of things. I usually can pull myself back before I go in with both feet, though not always before making a comment I later think I shouldn't have made, or at least articulated differently, and realise that this isn't fair, it isn't that black and white, people are complicated.

    My point is that when we get ruled by emotional reasoning, and start seeing things as black and white, good vs evil, my side is good, those other guys are evil, and must be destroyed, things can get messier than they need to be, and our thinking can get clouded. I think a demand for sensible police reform is reasonable and just. I think much of the anger aimed at the police is justified. However at the same time, I don't think it will help get the police to act when there are loud voices insisting that they are evil, that they are all bastards, spouting kill all cops (and most of the voices pushing back against those sentiments, at least on a public level don't appear to be saner voices on the reform side, I know it isn't many who are doing this but lets not act like there are none either, and there doesn't need to be many for it to be weaponised by Trump), if I was on the police I would be skeptical of these calls and the motivations of the people making them, as a member of the public I would not want police reform to be decided by the ACAB/FUCK PIGS!/All cops are evil crew. There is a huge difference in going into talks with a group that supports what you are, but wants you to be better and has good faith solutions to offer to achieve this, and a group that insists you are evil, you are all bastards (I mean this statement literally means every single one without exception, and if someone has a problem with it being taken literally then maybe pick a different slogan, use a word like most or some), has fringe elements that want your abolition and to do harm to you, why would you sit down with the latter?

    Like I said, I think that the anger is justified. I believe reform is essential. However using overly emotional language when it comes to demands, slogans and assertions, especially dehumanising language (and I grant, some cops are evil and are bastards, I just can't accept that they all are, or even most), I genuinely don't think this is the best way to move forward. And I also think it gives too much ammunition to the likes of Trump. Now one could argue that they would twist and weaponise your words regardless of how measured they are, and this isn't a bad point to make, you could also argue that the Trumpsters wouldn't care how reasonable the language is, they would still be against it, you can't change their minds, and again this is not a bad point to make. However I do believe, and I suppose this might be more of a misplaced sense of faith in humanity than anything else, but there might be enough who could be immune to the moral panic Trump will create if they see less extreme behaviour and language (and I do think calling the cops evil is extreme language) and more measured words and actions from more of the protesters, maybe enough to make a difference. I could be way off with this, maybe it wouldn't matter in the end, maybe the only way is to just go mental and break stuff until they capitulate, I just have a hard time accepting that this is how it needs to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  15. #14715
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    I can probably do the same with cops. Your point?

    Also, "dozens", haha, no.



    This narrative that the police force is evil is just so detestable. I don't get what you guys hope to accomplish.
    Are you white? Like you're probably white, white or not from this country.

    THE UNITED NATIONS CALLS THE PROBLEM MODERN DAY LYNCHING and draws parallels between black American treatment and Roma treatment in Hungary.

    But let's all listen to the non-targeted person tell targeted people how they're all wrong. As if your opinion means anything as if you think your opinion should mean even more coming from your lack of experience.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    Do you consider protesters who hide/don't report or testify against rioters who do illegal things evil?
    So you hold the police to the same standards of following the law as protesters?

    Police are literally working with white hate groups deemeds terror threats by the FBI and your problem is "oh but are they going over the top"

    You say emotional reasoning except... there is a lot of DATA som of it from the FBI and DHS itself. ACAB comes from the fact that these issues can easily be solved with "good cops reporting" but you know what happens when good cops report? ENTIRE DEPARTMENTS TURN ON THEM HARASS, HIDE, AND FIRE THEM so the idea that "it's just a few bad apple" is fucking bullshit and bogus unless you think ENTIRE DEPARTMENTS are just a fucking tardis that somehow is filled with thousands of more rotten apples inside.

    Tell me what major reform has come from people trying to capitulate to the median? We'd still be in jim crow following shitty advice like that.

    Police officers operate like a gang. The sheriff department in LA.

    had a racist gang that gave out fucking gift cards for physical violence IS THE ENTIRE DEPARTMENT AN APPLE???????

    When the whistleblower testifies that the deputy shot a man on the ground in the back multiple times to earn his executioners ink you mean we shouldn't dismantle the entire department and get rid of all those cops. You know the ones LINKED TO MURDERS AND HAVE HAD SEVERAL PEOPEL ARRESTED OVER YEARS

    What number of needless deaths by cops linked to hate groups and known to murder is acceptable before you're like "maybe that department should be scrapped and started over anew"???

    By chance are you either white or not American?

    Becuase you sound like non-rohingya people telling roghinyga to just behave and not be so radical, while the Burmese exterminate them. It's always the "moderate white person" that has held this country back from progress. As they are more concerned with how things look not whether black and brown people are suffering and dying. The latter is just an inconvenicen but one they are more than willing to put up with not being the target of said oppression.

    It does frustrate me that more sane elements can't/won't see this. They demand the police act in a way that too many on their own side are unwilling to do (e.g. get their house in order).
    What foolishness is this argument? They demand law enforcers act in a way in accordance with the law and that frustrates you? Please give me a fucking break. Do you expect Doctors to act like not doctors because they treat people who aren't doctors? Or do you expect your doctor to act like a doctor when treating you? They are supposed to be law-enforcers... except they usual break the law.

    And studies find they target black and brown people even when they're literally doing nothing. What fucking house needs to be in order what the fuck is out of order?

    You're over here bitching and moaning about fucking "emotional language"???

    Peopel are getting shot, killed, abused, choked, INJECTED WITH KETAMINE FOR NON-MEDICAL REASONS and you're over here fucking BITCHING AND MOANING about emotional language?

    Are you fucking serious?

    Look slavery is a problem but by jolly look how those ni----- negros talk. it's so violent and emotional! <-- This is a worthless opinion.
    Last edited by Themius; 2020-09-21 at 12:14 PM.

  16. #14716
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    If they aren't reporting or testifying against the cops they see doing illegal things, then yes, they are evil.
    Such black and white view of the world, yet you claimed not to be an extremist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Themius View Post
    Are you white? Like you're probably white, white or not from this country.
    And here come the racists... I'm not even gonna bother with the rest of the post, it's like a hundred conspiracy theories package.
    Last edited by Soliloque; 2020-09-21 at 01:22 PM.

  17. #14717
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    I can probably do the same with cops. Your point?

    Also, "dozens", haha, no.



    This narrative that the police force is evil is just so detestable. I don't get what you guys hope to accomplish.
    Well, let's take Buffalo. It wasn't just a couple bad cops who pushed down an old guy. It was the two dozen cops around them that die not render aid, and who ignored it. It was the department who got caught lying about the incident, and falsifying reports. It was the 50+ officers who resigned their billets in protest to their buddies getting in trouble.

    Enjoy that narrative.

  18. #14718
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    Such black and white view of the world, yet you claimed not to be an extremist.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And here come the racists...
    Most of African Americans talk about how they have been targeted by police.


    The police report numbers literally prove this to be true:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ates/19043207/
    Blacks are more likely than others to be arrested in almost every city for almost every type of crime. Nationwide, black people are arrested at higher rates for crimes as serious as murder and assault, and as minor as loitering and marijuana possession.

    Arrest rates are lopsided almost everywhere. Only 173 of the 3,538 police departments USA TODAY examined arrested black people at a rate equal to or lower than other racial groups.
    So to continue with your stance one or more of the following must true:

    - You don't understand how numbers work.
    - You think African Americans are genetically predisposed to commit more crime, which is racist.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  19. #14719
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Most of African Americans talk about how
    And there it ends. I don't give half a crap about "talking" or "my truth" or all that other bs. Bring me data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    So to continue with your stance one or more of the following must true:

    - You don't understand how numbers work.
    - You think African Americans are genetically predisposed to commit more crime, which is racist.
    Hahaha, I absolutely love when people of your ilk poison the well like this, providing nothing but Iwin/Youlose possible answers to the question.

    Yeah, no. All that shows is that black people get arrested, period.
    Is your claim that they're being falsely arrested? Then I'm on your side, let's prove the accusations are false and get those innocents out.
    If not, that means they've been correctly arrested.

    So I don't see what your issue is with criminals getting arrested. I don't give a crap about skin color when it comes to that, and neither should you.

  20. #14720
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliloque View Post
    And there it ends. I don't give half a crap about "talking" or "my truth" or all that other bs. Bring me data.



    Hahaha, I absolutely love when people of your ilk poison the well like this, providing nothing but Iwin/Youlose possible answers to the question.

    Yeah, no. All that shows is that black people get arrested, period.
    Is your claim that they're being falsely arrested? Then I'm on your side, let's prove the accusations are false and get those innocents out.
    If not, that means they've been correctly arrested.

    So I don't see what your issue is with criminals getting arrested. I don't give a crap about skin color when it comes to that, and neither should you.
    Enjoy!!!

    https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/f...mographics.pdf

    Enjoy!!!

    https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/pu...lice-use-force

    Enjoy!!!

    https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi...ntext=articles
    Last edited by Machismo; 2020-09-21 at 02:25 PM.

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