outlaw is just terrible

[Monster Hunter]

i am not a master mind in matters of explanation, but what they did to outlaw feels wrong. my complete flow i had with outlaw is completely destroyed. constantly confusing roll the bones with slice and dice, keep using between the eyes as stun instead of kidney shot, not paying attention to when roll the bones is ready or depleted and sometimes I totally forget about pressing it as a cooldown because I'm not used to it. There's so much stuff you have to keep up and pay attention to, that the actual gameplay experience with outlaw comes to a standstill.

you cannot tell me that this is the version we get on live servers. my whole muscle memory is lost. I had to rebind all my keys because it's a complete clusterfuck for me. call me autistic, but I can't deal with that change. no way.

anyone else feels like that or am I alone?

That's normal, you just need to relearn to play it befor judging it.

Wow makes sweeping changes to class's most expansions and that's long term a good thing as stuff eventualy would get boring.

[Versy]

Outlaw in shadowlands is fine..just need to be more aware and use addons to keep track of buffs.
Muscle memory and keybinds...Well thats just down to you..the more you play it the easier it gets

[keldarepewpew]

Your entire argument is based on, i havent been able to adapt to the new spec ergo it sucks. Not sure if trolling or super unaware how bad that argument is. You are litteraly advocating for no changes cause change is scary.

[intenzity]

Wow makes sweeping changes to class's most expansions and that's long term a good thing as stuff eventualy would get boring.

The dramatic loss of subscribers and rise of private servers would contradict this statement. Change for the sake of change is risky at best even with a good dev team, which Activision do not have.

[Delano]

Outlaw is barely improved over BFA so far, even with SnD. RTB is still a mess and the spec is still going to have the usual problems with energy capping etc.

[intenzity]

I can understand the criticism of outlaw being too RNG and I agree, it puts me off the spec for RNG to be a larger deciding factor than player skill over short fights. However the criticism of the spec being too cluttered makes no sense considering it's still very dumbed down compared to MoP combat.

[jellmoo]

Outlaw is far from the only spec with a maintenance buff it needs to work in, but it is probably the most underwhelming one in the game. Instead of being something exciting with a palpable and obvious effect, it's just "press this after building combo points so your damage goes up". It's bland and uninteresting.

Blizzard really should try and make SnD feel meaningful and give it some panache.

[Skendarn]

Agree with above posters. Really hope outlaw will get a better feel to it since i love the sword theme.

[Mafic]

SND actually improves the flow of Outlaw. Also it means you are not forced into taking Vigor and RTB is a bonus because while you have SND rolling you can choose to use RTB at the most opportune times to line up with BTE debuff.

This current version of Outlaw is vastly, vastly better than BFA Oultaw. BFA Outlaw is so bad it is right there with BFA Sub but the difference is that BFA Outlaw actually performed.

- - - Updated - - -

Outlaw is barely improved over BFA so far, even with SnD. RTB is still a mess and the spec is still going to have the usual problems with energy capping etc.

Energy capping shouldn't be happening but again that is easily adjustable by wow devs.

[WowClassic]

Imagine liking pirate spec enough to complain about them changing it

Cringe

[Gurg]

Rogue alt here, so my opinion might not be of value as much as someones who plays rogue as main.

BfA - Im not big fan of RtB, specially BfA version of it, it felt really punishing when you get bad roll, and you have to reroll again. Im actually no fan of it at all, using SnD trough majority of BfA when i played my rogue, meaning sub optimal.
This could have been mitigated with talent, but still felt a bit.. Strange to have that kind of RNG in the game.

SL - i agree that, comparing to Legion and BfA Outlaw feels a bit of unintuitive, tho i dont agree about the reason behind it.
Personally, Outlaw felt really simple and bland to me, similar to Fury (no offense meant to anyone) so the actual reason why i didnt pleyed it so much i would say that its more of an issue of feeling quite boring instead of actual RtB mechanic. The damage was there and you could do some super fun rogue funky play that only rogues can do, but Outlaw felt really simple and i was getting bored fast.

RtB change feels nice and you wont be forced to reroll as much as you used to, in addition its not punishing as much since you only spend GCD on it instead of CP.

SnD is, kinda, double edged sword for me.
I welcome the addition of it, it adds a layer of gameplay by having to keep it up. However, button it self feels more annoying than it should.
Maybe because its just - poke things faster. Thats it. Has 0 interaction with anything else, including conduits and leggos.
So im not yet sure where im on it.

BtE change is really nothing special due to already being an rotational ability during most of BfA cause of aTraits. So meh at it.

Blade Flurry is change that really feels good and you can easily have 100% uptime, which feels like its by design.

Im okish with changes made tbh, Outlaw could have been just fine without SnD, but its nothing like "the sky is falling." its just annoying.
I agree that it feels a bit strange, but not as something super complicated, just a bit of time to get finger memory going.

Overall i like the changes to rogues (mainly Sub and Assa) and its my second pick as new main for SL, on first place being a tie between new Enhance and DKs.
Unfortunately, if you dont like Outlaw changes now, you will probably like it even less when SL lands since most of their legendaries and conduicts revolve around buffing mostly RtB, but also your passive proc, BtE increasing damage to pistol Shot and Blade Flurry giving additional proc chance of your passive.
So what you see/play now on PTR/beta is how will it play in expansion, just further being boosted by conduicts and leggos.

My suggestion is to either spend some time on PTR and getting a hold of new rotation and learning new finger memory.
As someone mentioned earlier - Hekili is great addon to help you with this.
If not, try other rogue specs, Sub feels super fun tbh.
However, if you dont find them fun and decide to stick with Outlaw u better spend that time on PTR learning changes.

Or try different class. I know that this is something quite pointless to say and not helpful at all, but thats how it is, im just open about it.
Theres slim-to-none chance that we will see any drastic changes to classes before next major patch in expansion.

[Donald Hellscream]

I havent read trough all comments, but i did read trough most of them.

Rogue alt here, so my opinion might not be the valued as much as someones who plays rogue as main.

I will repeat something that i keep saying recently.

First thing first, take into consoderation that what you see on PTR is not complete picture of how will class play into shadowlands.
You are missing covenants, soulbinds, conduicts and legendaries.

Now to get into Outlaw.

BfA - Im not big fan of RtB, specially BfA version of it, it felt really punishing when you get bad roll, and you have to reroll again. Im actually no fan of it at all, using SnD trough majority of BfA when i played my rogue, meaning sub optimal.
This could have been mitigated with talent, but still felt a bit.. Strange to have that kind of RNG in the game.

SL - i agree that, comparing to Legion and BfA Outlaw feels a bit of unintuitive, tho i dont agree about the reason behind it.
Personally, Outlaw felt really simple and bland to me, similar to Fury (no offense meant to anyone) so the actual reason why i didnt pleyed it so much i would say that its more of an issue of feeling quite boring instead of actual RtB mechanic. The damage was there and you could do some super fun rogue funky play that only rogues can do, but Outlaw felt really simple and i was getting bored fast.

RtB change feels nice and you wont be forced to reroll as much as you used to, in addition its not punishing as much since you only spend GCD on it instead of CP.

SnD is, kinda, double edged sword for me.
I welcome the addition of it, it adds a layer of gameplay by having to keep it up. However, button it self feels more annoying than it should.
Maybe because its just - poke things faster. Thats it. Has 0 interaction with anything else, including conduits and leggos.
So im not yet sure where im on it.

BtA change is really nothing special due to already being an rotational ability during most of BfA cause of aTraits. So meh at it.

Blade Flurry is change that really feels good and you can easily have 100% uptime, which feels like its by design.

Im okish with changes made tbh, Outlaw could have been just fine without SnD, but its nothing like "the sky is falling." its just annoying.
I agree that it feels a bit strange, but not as something super complicated, just a bit of time to get finger memory going.

Overall i like the changes to rogues (mainly Sub and Assa) and its my second pick as new main for SL, on first place being a tie between new Enhance and DKs.
Unfortunately, if you dont like Outlaw changes now, you will probably like it even less when SL lands since most of their legendaries and conduicts revolve around buffing mostly RtB, but also your passive proc, BtE increasing damage to pistol Shot and Blade Flurry giving additional proc chance of your passive.
So what you see/play now on PTR/beta is how will it play in expansion, just further being boosted by conduicts and leggos.

My suggestion is to either spend some time on PTR and getting a hold of new rotation and learning new finger memory.
As someone mentioned earlier - Hekili is great addon to help you with this.
If not, try other rogue specs, Sub feels super fun tbh.
However, if you dont find them fun and decide to stick with Outlaw u better spend that time on PTR learning changes.

Or try different class. I know that this is something quite pointless to say and not helpful at all, but thats how it is, im just open about it.
Theres slim-to-none chance that we will see any drastic changes to classes before next major patch in expansion.

Its not entirely true that SnD doesn't have any interaction with anything else, the Grand melee buff from Roll the bones gives 2 seconds of SnD per combo point spent on a finisher, extending the duration if SnD is already active, this can in some circumstances lead to SnD having a very long duration.
Admittedly its still not a super interesting interaction.

[Wedny22]

You are Just compaining without a real reason...you dont like something...shiit happens..Just adept, of go play another spec..only bitching about it, well, it Will only make of more messed up for you.. Just go focus on the fun part of the spec you clearly seem to love!

Although, i have to admit, i agree with you, Just not with the complaining part, please dont be made At me for sayin that out loud.
I wont play Rogue, until ma guild forces me too again, i witch case ill prolly Just go balance again.

Anyway, i hope you Will enjoy Shadowlands and your "new" Rogue!

Sorry for typos...my phone..its tragic

[Gurg]

Its not entirely true that SnD doesn't have any interaction with anything else, the Grand melee buff from Roll the bones gives 2 seconds of SnD per combo point spent on a finisher, extending the duration if SnD is already active, this can in some circumstances lead to SnD having a very long duration.
Admittedly its still not a super interesting interaction.

Correct! I was getting 2mins SnD easy on PTR even with my gear.
What i meant was that we didnt get any conduict or Leggo that interacts with it per se. It still feels like its something without which Outlaw could be just fine, but if you look at other rogue specs, they both have 3 maintenance spells, i guess that Outlaws is RtB, SnD and Blade Flurry. Also BtE, but thats already rotational finisher.

I personally see and understand why OP is annoyed and made this topic, but i dont think its so big of and issue which cant be adressed with a bit of time on PTR or during pre-patch, just learning that change in rotation.

[ymirsson]

Correct! I was getting 2mins SnD easy on PTR even with my gear.
What i meant was that we didnt get any conduict or Leggo that interacts with it per se. It still feels like its something without which Outlaw could be just fine, but if you look at other rogue specs, they both have 3 maintenance spells, i guess that Outlaws is RtB, SnD and Blade Flurry. Also BtE, but thats already rotational finisher.

I personally see and understand why OP is annoyed and made this topic, but i dont think its so big of and issue which cant be adressed with a bit of time on PTR or during pre-patch, just learning that change in rotation.

RtB is becoming a CD in Shadowlands.

[shoegazing]

You are Just compaining without a real reason...you dont like something...shiit happens..Just adept, of go play another spec..only bitching about it, well, it Will only make of more messed up for you.. Just go focus on the fun part of the spec you clearly seem to love!

Although, i have to admit, i agree with you, Just not with the complaining part, please dont be made At me for sayin that out loud.
I wont play Rogue, until ma guild forces me too again, i witch case ill prolly Just go balance again.

Anyway, i hope you Will enjoy Shadowlands and your "new" Rogue!

Sorry for typos...my phone..its tragic

Ah yes, the good old "I agree with what you are saying, but I don't like that you are complaining about it"

If you complain about complainers, that makes you a complainer as well.

[Mafic]

I am not sure why people are saying Outlaw in the upcoming expansion is difficult.

How is going from Revealing strike, insight and SND all that different from RTB debuff, SND and RTB buffs? The only thing that feels really different is using Blade Flurry in single target situations. But in my opinion Blade Flurry doesn't need to be on the GCD and I don't like the band aid fix BlizZard has made to it as a result of being on the GCD.

But overall you actually want to line up SND, RTB and BTE now which actually feels good as it requires some planning. We are not talking about some extensive set up here and frankly Revealing strike and red buff isn't extensive planning either. However, it does feel good to be able to plan ahead when you want to put up buffs and debuffs on a target. Just like in the old days of holding off to advance to red insight if you wanted to swtich to a target.

Such nuances are welcomed to return to Outlaw and Sub in the upcoming expansion. Long overdue.

[Kaver]

RtB change feels nice and you wont be forced to reroll as much as you used to, in addition its not punishing as much since you only spend GCD on it instead of CP.

But this is ignoring the reason of WHY we were rerolling. It was a solution to deal with the RNG of the spec and that RNG is still there. So they haven’t fix the problem at all. They have simply restricted the solution which is not helping very much at all. Now when we get a bad buff we just have to accept that we are doing low damage for the next 30-45 seconds and there is nothing we can do about it. They should fix the problem instead of restricting the solution.

[Mafic]

But this is ignoring the reason of WHY we were rerolling. It was a solution to deal with the RNG of the spec and that RNG is still there. So they haven’t fix the problem at all. They have simply restricted the solution which is not helping very much at all. Now when we get a bad buff we just have to accept that we are doing low damage for the next 30-45 seconds and there is nothing we can do about it. They should fix the problem instead of restricting the solution.

I agree but these devs are not giving up on RTB for whatever reason.

My speculation is that they want to keep Outlaw a sustain spec similar to other specs in the game. I feel that Blizzard has put DPS specs into two categories with one category burst and the other sustain. That is why I believe cool downs like Dreadblades and Kspree are talents but then you have talents like Alacrity.

So from the point of view of the devs as long as Outlaw performs as a sustain spec via spreadsheet that they are satisfied with how it functions over a long period of time. But as we all know RNG may be smoothed out over a long period of time but it still feels bad to play in questing, PVP or even dungeon/raid situations where encounters are often much more shorter.

[cozzri]

I absolutely hate outlaw rogue, I had to abandon my Pandaren rogue completely because the change from combat to outlaw just entirely ruined the theme of the character; USING GUNS IS STUPID!!!! They seriously need to add glyphs to make guns into sword attack or something because what they did to combat is just a spit in the face.