Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[TigTone]

Coming up systemic racism as the only explanation for disparities in behavior is pretty stupid.

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I've certainly changed my mind on universities - they're deeply racist and should be defunded.

Not all universities are the same...way too over generalize.

[Spectral]

Not all universities are the same...way too over generalize.

Many universities are racist. They should prove that their admissions policies are a reflection of legitimate merit or lose access to government resources.

[TigTone]

Many universities are racist. They should prove that their admissions policies are a reflection of legitimate merit or lose access to government resources.

Hmm I guess that should be applied to all branch’s/levels of government.

Government Policies and practices shouldn’t be racist.

A great way to start an end of Systematic racism where ever it may be.

[Themius]

Coming up systemic racism as the only explanation for disparities in behavior is pretty stupid.

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I've certainly changed my mind on universities - they're deeply racist and should be defunded.

You are fucking perfect. You are just perfect.

You are literally the thing that holds back all progression. A white man... claiming everything is racist if future generations try to correct well... past racism.

Angry white man with Asian wife declares that universities need defunding because universities are racist... but only racist towards Asians and that systemic racism isn't really a thing that exists.

Tell me why that option is worth anything?

[Orange Joe]

Related to this topic but anyone else seen this??

https://www.buffaloschools.org/Page/93603

Public schools mandating that kids support Black Lives Matter as part of their curriculum. Like the movement Black Lives Matter not the idea of not being racist or awareness of race. Some cult like shit going there

I'm not reading what you are claiming here.

[Themius]

Many universities are racist. They should prove that their admissions policies are a reflection of legitimate merit or lose access to government resources.

So when schools in certain areas suffer due to low property taxes due to systemic racist issues you say "too bad fuck those people if they don't test well"

You are aware that to actually do well and pass and get through college you have to do the work so a score alone isn't the ultimate measure. I would expect someone like you... who spent their time getting a fucking phd would be better at elementary critical thinking. Alas it seems racism often clouds judgement and thought.

Now when a person goes to, does well, and graduates college. What is the mysterious "legitimate merit" you are fucking going on about? The merit is proven when they perform is it not? Or do you think an Asian person who had a community of people pay for them to get private tutoring (for the Asians who aren't well off) and therefore test better have more merit. When compared to a person who say... didn't have any of that and instead self studied or worked while trying to make it but ultimately doesn't test as well?

Are people purely numbers or are they idk... people with multiple facets? I mean being you subscribed to racist pseudoscience in the past I can't say I expect anything logical, genuine, not racist, or bias from you.

You are perfect, absolutely perfect. You are the epitome of the exact issue we have been talking about in this thread.

The masses of white people who are apathetic to the issues and instead turn themselves into victims. They turn themselves into victims and their pet minority, which is just another form of racism. Asian's aren't special people Spectral. I know you think so, you've behaved as such and you think they're the ones "truly" suffering from systemic racism.

[Spectral]

So when schools in certain areas suffer due to low property taxes due to systemic racist issues you say "too bad fuck those people if they don't test well"

You are aware that to actually do well and pass and get through college you have to do the work so a score alone isn't the ultimate measure. I would expect someone like you... who spent their time getting a fucking phd would be better at elementary critical thinking. Alas it seems racism often clouds judgement and thought.

Now when a person goes to, does well, and graduates college. What is the mysterious "legitimate merit" you are fucking going on about? The merit is proven when they perform is it not? Or do you think an Asian person who had a community of people pay for them to get private tutoring (for the Asians who aren't well off) and therefore test better have more merit. When compared to a person who say... didn't have any of that and instead self studied or worked while trying to make it but ultimately doesn't test as well?

Are people purely numbers or are they idk... people with multiple facets? I mean being you subscribed to racist pseudoscience in the past I can't say I expect anything logical, genuine, not racist, or bias from you.

You are perfect, absolutely perfect. You are the epitome of the exact issue we have been talking about in this thread.

The masses of white people who are apathetic to the issues and instead turn themselves into victims. They turn themselves into victims and their pet minority, which is just another form of racism. Asian's aren't special people Spectral. I know you think so, you've behaved as such and you think they're the ones "truly" suffering from systemic racism.

Princeton has admitted to systemic racism. Yale is accused by the DoJ of civil rights violations. Who am I to argue? It's time to defund these racist institutions.

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You are fucking perfect. You are just perfect.

You are literally the thing that holds back all progression. A white man... claiming everything is racist if future generations try to correct well... past racism.

Angry white man with Asian wife declares that universities need defunding because universities are racist... but only racist towards Asians and that systemic racism isn't really a thing that exists.

Tell me why that option is worth anything?

I don't think I'm really the one that seems "angry". I'm a pretty cheerful guy, but you might want to engage in some introspection.

[Themius]

Princeton has admitted to systemic racism. Yale is accused by the DoJ of civil rights violations. Who am I to argue? It's time to defund these racist institutions.

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I don't think I'm really the one that seems "angry". I'm a pretty cheerful guy, but you might want to engage in some introspection.

Angry when it comes to this topic you have been before.

Earlier this month, Princeton President Christopher Eisgruber published a letter to the university community in which he acknowledged that the university has and continues to be shaped by systemic racism.

Racism and the damage it does to people of color nevertheless persist at Princeton as in our society, sometimes by conscious intention but more often through unexamined assumptions and stereotypes, ignorance or insensitivity, and the systemic legacy of past decisions and policies," he wrote, underscoring also that for most of Princeton's history, the university "intentionally and systematically excluded people of color, women, Jews, and other minorities."

"Racist assumptions from the past also remain embedded in structures of the University itself," he added, noting that, for example, Princeton has at least nine departments and programs organized around European languages and culture, but only a single, relatively small program in African studies.

The letter instead served to update students on the steps Eisgruber had tasked the university administration to take to address systemic racism, including new funding for teaching, research and service projects related to racial justice, exploring the possibility of a new degree program for students from disadvantaged communities that are disproportionately impacted by systematic racism, diversifying the faculty, including by increasing by 50% the number of tenured faculty from underrepresented groups, and reviewing university benefits and policies with an eye for enhancing equity for employees in lower-paid positions, among many other things.

aka doesn't support your bullshit argument but instead destroys it being their issue has been systemic racism as it affects people of colour and underrepresented groups. The two things you say doesn't really exist. What a folly of an example to use.

The White House used that admission to investigate them... it seems you subscribe to the Trumps. Is that who you're backing and voting for? Or are you gonna be one of those "I'm a libertarian so I'll vote for them, the do nothings who want all the same things as those republicans expect we're cool with asians and gays."

Gurl bye.

Do people sell accounts? Or is this just what happens to some though too many white men as they get older? They just get more apathetic and selfish and then become cool with all the racism they see because it doesn't quite affect them? You hold back progress.

You are on the side of history that says "Oh slavery is terrible... but those abolitionist are too radical" Aka people with opinions worth as much as a speck of sand in the Sahara.

[Spectral]

Angry when it comes to this topic you have been before.

aka doesn't support your bullshit argument but instead destroys it being their issue has been systemic racism as it affects people of colour and underrepresented groups. The two things you say doesn't really exist. What a folly of an example to use.

I don't know what you think I'm arguing - all I'm saying is that Princeton is a racist institution that shouldn't receive federal dollars. I can't really say I'm terribly interested in the specifics of their self flagellation, it's enough to know that they're a bunch of racists.

[Endus]

Coming up systemic racism as the only explanation for disparities in behavior is pretty stupid.

I didn't.

The other explanation would be that it's inherent to the people, and they earn their inferior outcomes accordingly.

That's just direct racism, however, and pretty untenable.

If you're suggesting the outcomes are natural, then that's direct racism.
If you're arguing that they come about due to culture and socioeconomics and values and so forth, that's literally the "system" part of "systemic racism". You're just describing characteristics of the "system" in question, factors along which it fosters injustice.

You have three choices;
1> Admit to being directly racist. I don't expect that of you, nor do I believe it of you, but it's a possibility and must be mentioned.
2> Deny that demographic variances exist. This is just willful ignorance and counterfactual, and doesn't bear serious consideration other than to dismiss it; it's mostly here because if we reached a point where this were true, we could consider that the issue had been solved.
3> Acknowledge that systemic racism exists and affects outcomes unjustly.

There aren't other options. Your only argument thus far has been to point to components of systemic racism and say "what about these, huh?" and then act offended when I point out they're just elements of society and thus examples of systemic racism in practice. Without making any kind of counter-argument, just clutching at invisible pearls as if my point is somehow objectionable.

[Themius]

I don't know what you think I'm arguing - all I'm saying is that Princeton is a racist institution that shouldn't receive federal dollars. I can't really say I'm terribly interested in the specifics of their self flagellation, it's enough to know that they're a bunch of racists.

This type of bad faith really just terrible posting is not like you of the past.

"Princeton admitted there is racism therefore they should receive no money!" is a foolish conclusion... being the issue Princeton faces is recognising systemic racism within the school due to peopleEXACTLY LIKE YOU who implicitly are racist or bias, and due to that Princeton is addressing it...

You have a problem with that? You don't believe in systemic racism, so you take issue with a school that says systemic racism affects every aspect of life and society, even here?

Quick question.

What did you get your Ph.D in?

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I didn't.

The other explanation would be that it's inherent to the people, and they earn their inferior outcomes accordingly.

That's just direct racism, however, and pretty untenable.

If you're suggesting the outcomes are natural, then that's direct racism.
If you're arguing that they come about due to culture and socioeconomics and values and so forth, that's literally the "system" part of "systemic racism". You're just describing characteristics of the "system" in question, factors along which it fosters injustice.

You have three choices;
1> Admit to being directly racist. I don't expect that of you, nor do I believe it of you, but it's a possibility and must be mentioned.
2> Deny that demographic variances exist. This is just willful ignorance and counterfactual, and doesn't bear serious consideration other than to dismiss it; it's mostly here because if we reached a point where this were true, we could consider that the issue had been solved.
3> Acknowledge that systemic racism exists and affects outcomes unjustly.

There aren't other options. Your only argument thus far has been to point to components of systemic racism and say "what about these, huh?" and then act offended when I point out they're just elements of society and thus examples of systemic racism in practice. Without making any kind of counter-argument, just clutching at invisible pearls as if my point is somehow objectionable.

Idk if that's spectral... truly I don't... posting patterns are just radically different. Then again he's been slipping into that hate hole for years and delving deeper and deeper into subscribing to racist pseudoscience and BS arguments.

Like Princeton shouldn't get money because they admit systemic racism exist everywhere, including their school. Clearly what we want are schools that say it doesn't exist and racism isn't a thing, while white students yell slurs targeting black people. Looking at you Syracuse.

[Draco-Onis]

I don't know what you think I'm arguing - all I'm saying is that Princeton is a racist institution that shouldn't receive federal dollars. I can't really say I'm terribly interested in the specifics of their self flagellation, it's enough to know that they're a bunch of racists.

It seems you don't understand the problem with universities, the DOJ is just doing Trump's racist bidding and doesn't care about problems. The vast majority of these universities get their admissions through legacies and "donations". It's pretty easy to get in if your great grandfather gave a nice donation to attend then generations of your family who keep donating have access that is hard to achieve when your great grandfather was a slave.

[Spectral]

I didn't.

The other explanation would be that it's inherent to the people, and they earn their inferior outcomes accordingly.

That's just direct racism, however, and pretty untenable.

If you're suggesting the outcomes are natural, then that's direct racism.
If you're arguing that they come about due to culture and socioeconomics and values and so forth, that's literally the "system" part of "systemic racism". You're just describing characteristics of the "system" in question, factors along which it fosters injustice.

You have three choices;
1> Admit to being directly racist. I don't expect that of you, nor do I believe it of you, but it's a possibility and must be mentioned.
2> Deny that demographic variances exist. This is just willful ignorance and counterfactual, and doesn't bear serious consideration other than to dismiss it; it's mostly here because if we reached a point where this were true, we could consider that the issue had been solved.
3> Acknowledge that systemic racism exists and affects outcomes unjustly.

There aren't other options. Your only argument thus far has been to point to components of systemic racism and say "what about these, huh?" and then act offended when I point out they're just elements of society and thus examples of systemic racism in practice. Without making any kind of counter-argument, just clutching at invisible pearls as if my point is somehow objectionable.

If you define "systemic racism" sufficiently broadly, I will certainly grant that basically anything could be systemic racism in that case.

My own wager would be that different outcomes between groups don't strictly require racism (or any other form of prejudice) to be the driver. For example, it's pretty hard to tell a story where Norway having more Nobel Prizes than nations like Spain is a result of Nordic people oppressing southern Europeans.

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It seems you don't understand the problem with universities, the DOJ is just doing Trump's racist bidding and doesn't care about problems. The vast majority of these universities get their admissions through legacies and "donations". It's pretty easy to get in if your grandfather gave a nice donation to attend then generations of your family who keep donating have access that is hard to achieve when your grandfather was a slave or lived under Jim Crow.

While I certainly recognize the right of private institutions to discriminate in favor of their legacy admits, I'd suggest that this is a pretty good reason to stop providing them federal funding. I don't know that I'm exactly clear on the point you're making, but you're mistaken if you think I have a soft spot for old money Ivy Leaguers.

[Themius]

If you define "systemic racism" sufficiently broadly, I will certainly grant that basically anything could be systemic racism in that case.

My own wager would be that different outcomes between groups don't strictly require racism (or any other form of prejudice) to be the driver. For example, it's pretty hard to tell a story where Norway having more Nobel Prizes than nations like Spain is a result of Nordic people oppressing southern Europeans.

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While I certainly recognize the right of private institutions to discriminate in favor of their legacy admits, I'd suggest that this is a pretty good reason to stop providing them federal funding. I don't know that I'm exactly clear on the point you're making, but you're mistaken if you think I have a soft spot for old money Ivy Leaguers.

That's a silly example... the examples about systemic racism in America are backed up directly by the history of this country that you rush to discount.

People aren't saying we have systemic racism problems in America because of white Persians in Iran. How in the fuck could you possibly think that analogy was acceptable to prove your point? Is bad faith your game now?

You're the type of guy that was posted in that mem in this thread hundreds of pages ago... the person who argues contrarian points for fun because the issues people like me face are nothing but a thought experiment you do not understand and do not care to understand.

[Draco-Onis]

While I certainly recognize the right of private institutions to discriminate in favor of their legacy admits, I'd suggest that this is a pretty good reason to stop providing them federal funding. I don't know that I'm exactly clear on the point you're making, but you're mistaken if you think I have a soft spot for old money Ivy Leaguers.

What I am pointing to is part of systematic racism, the past affects the present. A lot of reasons minorities don't have the same representation is because of things like these. The slaves were freed but they were not given any land or reparations they had to work for slave wages then policies like Jim Crow, red lining, discrimination among others stopped them from building capital to pass on to their kids.

It's an entire system of injustices that result in these outcomes hence the term systematic racism. The police play their part as well since most of these injustices were done by members of the police who supported groups like the KKK. The Judicial system gave the white murderers a pass and convicted black people at an very high rate even where there was no proof.

We may disagree on a lot but in general I think you are a very intelligent person, if you don't understand this issue it is done willfully.

[Spectral]

That's a silly example... the examples about systemic racism in America are backed up directly by the history of this country that you rush to discount.

People aren't saying we have systemic racism problems in America because of white Persians in Iran. How in the fuck could you possibly think that analogy was acceptable to prove your point? Is bad faith your game now?

My claim is that systemic racism isn't the only reasonable explanation for differences in group outcomes and behaviors. Honestly, it's incredibly stupid that this even seems like a debatable point to anyone, so I'll pass on debating it any further and assume that people who disagree with something so clear to me probably differ at such a base level that it's pointless.

[Themius]

What I am pointing to is part of systematic racism, the past affects the present. A lot of reasons minorities don't have the same representation is because of things like these. The slaves were freed but they were not given any land or reparations they had to work for slave wages then policies like Jim Crow, red lining, discrimination among others stopped them from building capital to pass on to their kids.

It's an entire system of injustices that result in these outcomes hence the term systematic racism. The police play their part as well since most of these injustices were done by members of the police who supported groups like the KKK. The Judicial system gave the white murderers a pass and convicted black people at an very high rate even where there was no proof.

We may disagree on a lot but in general I think you are a very intelligent person, if you don't understand this issue it is done willfully.

some economist did the work and well... a large amount of the disparity comes from things like giving white people free land while simultaneously taking land away from blacks. And a lot of white people are able to trace back their wealth, even if it isn't "millions wealth" to the government giving them shit tons of hand outs for decades while oppressing black people. Red lining still happens but Spectral thinks if you have a high test score surely no one will discriminate against you

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My claim is that systemic racism isn't the only reasonable explanation for differences in group outcomes and behaviors. Honestly, it's incredibly stupid that this even seems like a debatable point to anyone, so I'll pass on debating it any further and assume that people who disagree with something so clear to me probably differ at such a base level that it's pointless.

Why instead of talking about systemic racism and how that affects many aspects of life for black and brown people, do you want to instead ignore race and talk about entirely different issues not related to racism? Why do you wish to move away from racism when we are trying to talk about racism?

This is why people do not care about the opinions of people like you. They aren't worth very much to the conversation... not when you out of the gate try to dismiss racism as a thing that affects people

it's like if I talk about discrimination about being gay and you instead immediately jump to oh it probably isn't you being gay there's probably tons of others things! after I was called a faggot and kicked out an establishment. The fuck is that opinion that it wasn't about sexuality worth? I'll tell you again a speck of sand in the sahara That's how much that opinion is worth.

[Spectral]

What I am pointing to is part of systematic racism, the past affects the present. A lot of reasons minorities don't have the same representation is because of things like these. The slaves were freed but they were not given any land or reparations they had to work for slave wages then policies like Jim Crow, red lining, discrimination among others stopped them from building capital to pass on to their kids.

It's an entire system of injustices that result in these outcomes hence the term systematic racism. The police play their part as well since most of these injustices were done by members of the police who supported groups like the KKK. The Judicial system gave the white murderers a pass and convicted black people at an very high rate even where there was no proof.

We may disagree on a lot but in general I think you are a very intelligent person, if you don't understand this issue it is done willfully.

I don't find the generational wealth argument broadly compelling; I think the discussion in this SSC blog post explains it more robustly than I plausibly can.

You won't find a defender of the police or the judiciary with me. I have a generally low opinion of the individuals involved and have little doubt they tack personal racial animus on top of broadly terrible treatment of citizens. I'm in favor of decriminalization of drugs and changes in police practices to begin to address those problems.

[Themius]

We may disagree on a lot but in general I think you are a very intelligent person, if you don't understand this issue it is done willfully.

Racists can be intelligent. He has subscribed to the idea that black people are simply genetically inferior and therefore stupid. In fact, in my post where I note his past postings, the only thing he took issue with was that his stance on schools had changed. Not the other things I can mentioned.... so it is safe he still follows that psudoscience.

[Spectral]

Racists can be intelligent. He has subscribed to the idea that black people are simply genetically inferior and therefore stupid. In fact, in my post where I note his past postings, the only thing he took issue with was that his stance on schools had changed. Not the other things I can mentioned.... so it is safe he still follows that psudoscience.

I'm not actually going to try to address furious rants point by point. I don't post here much any more because the level of heat is way higher than the level of light. To the extent that I'm going to bother, it's surely not going to be with multiple paragraphs attempting to atone for some imagined bigotry on my part. I don't think I've ever expressed racial animus towards any group here.