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  1. #21
    I am Murloc! KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    I'm right up there with the most of the Garrosh fans and wanting to see him again.


    But we have had a lot of Garrosh from Cata to WoD. A subtle nod here and there, or an easter egg, or his depiction in Afterlives is more than enough for me. His story is over.

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans Synros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gd8 View Post
    The entire point of communism is to not have classes so it's very much not communist
    And yet for the last 100+ years, Communism has always failed and ended up just being a dictatorial class system where there's a massive divide between the people on top and the people below. It's almost like Communism doesn't and cannot work like how you think it does on paper...

    Quote Originally Posted by gd8 View Post
    Sounds very much like america, a capitalist society. Profit produced by laborers is stolen and hoarded by those at the top
    Except the fact you're getting for your labor (and can even negotiation your wages) & have the opportunity to even create your own business, unlike in a Communist system where 100% of it is control by The Party.

    It's hilarious how you guys keep conflating Corporatism with Capitalism. They're not the same thing. Your understand of it is just this hyperbolic fictional version that existed in 90s cartoons, where men in black suits smoke cigars in a dark room while they twirl their mustaches. You're ideology is completely disconnected from reality.
    Last edited by Synros; 2020-09-19 at 10:15 PM.
    ON WEDNESDAYS WE WEAR PINK

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Synros View Post
    ended up just being a dictatorial class system where there's a massive divide between the people on top and the people below.
    Again, you're literally describing capitalism. There has never been a bigger divide between top and bottom in history than there currently is in the United States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synros View Post
    And yet for the last 100+ years, Communism has always failed...It's almost like Communism doesn't and cannot work like how you think it does on paper...
    Lol communism has "failed" in every country that has attempted it because the United States dedicated the entire 20th century specifically to stomping it out wherever it may have appeared - either via direct or indirect warfare, staging coups against democratically elected leaders and installing CIA-backed dictators in their place, or economy-crushing sanctions and embargoes. A true communist country has never been allowed to exist and one probably won't exist for several hundred years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synros View Post
    Except the fact you're getting for your labor (and can even negotiation your wages)
    Lmfao

    Quote Originally Posted by Synros View Post
    It's hilarious how you guys keep conflating Corporatism with Capitalism. They're not the same thing.
    Corporatism and neo-feudalism is the unavoidable end stage of capitalism, we're living under corporate capitalism currently and are rapidly approaching neo-feudalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synros View Post
    Your understand of it is just this hyperbolic fictional version that existed in 90s cartoons.
    Sounds like your understanding of communism. And unlike your fearful cartoonish propaganda-induced ideas of communism, my understanding of capitalism is based on having lived under it for 27 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synros View Post
    You're ideology is completely disconnected from reality.
    So is yours when you won't acknowledge the massive wealth inequality and quality of life disparity present in every capitalist society that has ever existed.

    Thank you for derailing my thread with your ignorance.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    Doubtful since he is underground alone in chains with the very people who are benefiting from him as his only contact.

    - - - Updated - - -



    They already addressed this at blizcon (I think it was...it was early I know that) the shadowlands are not exclusive to anything. They are for everything that lives. Don’t forget we have another night warrior as well in the shadowlands that killed an old god that was on their planet.
    That... is the absolute dumbest thing I've ever heard. You're telling me somehow there is a an all-cosmic afterlife that exists for EVERY living thing, but somehow is tied closely with Azeroth?

    I guess this is their way of suggesting the villains of Shadowlands consist of another universal threat since we just had two other expansions with universal threats. I was really hoping that this was all contained to Azeroth and the only reason it was relevant was because Azeroth as a world soul was special. I can at least buy that narrative.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    That... is the absolute dumbest thing I've ever heard. You're telling me somehow there is a an all-cosmic afterlife that exists for EVERY living thing, but somehow is tied closely with Azeroth?

    I guess this is their way of suggesting the villains of Shadowlands consist of another universal threat since we just had two other expansions with universal threats. I was really hoping that this was all contained to Azeroth and the only reason it was relevant was because Azeroth as a world soul was special. I can at least buy that narrative.
    I’m...sorry? I thought everybody knew it wasn’t just Azeroth....give me a bit and I will try and find the quote for you but the night warrior stuff in shadowlands basically explains they are from another planet that had old gods and they invoked the night warrior (I think the name is translated for connectivity they probably called it something else)

    There are other things but they are very spoilery
    the partner of the night warrior from the other planet explains to shandris that they were unable to save him after the ritual and once he single handedly killed the old god he died due to having too much power flowing through him. They then both ended up in Ardenweld and live as deer together forever.

    Found it: here is Wowhead’s transcript of Lost Codexs interview.

    https://www.wowhead.com/news=296091/...the-lost-codex

    Will we see races/species from planets other than Azeroth in the Shadowlands?
    Yes and no. From a narrative standpoint, when you come to the Shadowlands and encounter a mortal soul of an unknown race, it will take on a kind of generic amorphous shape to relate that as an Azerothian with no frame of reference for the creatures of other unvisited worlds, you don't really know or understand what they'd look like. Through the storyline, we'll find that the Shadowlands is an ecosystem of different afterlifes; the point of souls coming to the Shadowlands isn't just to hang out, but to take a part in those different processes. In Bastion, a soul judged worthy of the afterlife will over the course of a very long process evolve into a Kyrian. For Bastion, it's a monastic process of purification and evolution, but each part of the Shadowlands has a different concept of afterlife and process which the souls that inhabit it go through.

    From a development standpoint, one of the interesting challenges of the Shadowlands is that it's the afterlife for all the realms of WoW's cosmology; some of which players have visited, some have only been hinted at, and others might not have even been heard of at this point. Obviously when dealing with worlds the game has never been to to, the developers can't just envision an infinite number of models and ideas, but they are trying to work the concept into the story.
    Last edited by Hobbidaggy; 2020-09-22 at 12:54 AM. Reason: Added link

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    I’m...sorry? I thought everybody knew it wasn’t just Azeroth....give me a bit and I will try and find the quote for you but the night warrior stuff in shadowlands basically explains they are from another planet that had old gods and they invoked the night warrior (I think the name is translated for connectivity they probably called it something else)

    There are other things but they are very spoilery
    the partner of the night warrior from the other planet explains to shandris that they were unable to save him after the ritual and once he single handedly killed the old god he died due to having too much power flowing through him. They then both ended up in Ardenweld and live as deer together forever.

    Found it: here is Wowhead’s transcript of Lost Codexs interview.

    https://www.wowhead.com/news=296091/...the-lost-codex
    I mean, do you understand how the concept of an intergalactic heaven where somehow you retain your sense of self doesn't really make... sense? Like... the best way to write an afterlife is going to be one of two ways: Either you right it so that it's linked to your planet only and each person who lives and dies on the planet goes to the afterlife keeping their memories and sense of self, or you go the FFVII route where each planet is given a life stream from a central main source of lifesteam. Every living thing on the planet that ever does or will exist is born from the same limited energy pool. When they die, they fade away into nothingness. When the planet dies, the energy returns to the central "planet"

    But think about trying to cram an ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE into ONE afterlife with a limited amount of space to work with. It doesn't make narrative sense unless 99.99% of every living creature that ever existed in the universe was worthy of getting sucked into the Maw. You can't cram that many dead souls into 4 covenants, and they can't make up some stuff that there are some realms we don't know about... They've explicitly stated that the Shadowlands is dependent on the 4 covenants and the Maw working correctly, so you can't have unaccounted souls roaming around doing their own thing.




    I suppose I would also accept a mixture of the two in some regard as in... you die on Azeroth, go to the Shadowlands temporarily, and then your soul gets reborn as somebody else on another planet. Specific people remain as protectors of the Shadowlands until they choose to pass on if they want. That would make sense in terms of why the space is limited, but there's just no way to fit that many things into that limited space.

    Every person who ever lived on Azeroth ALONE would be too much to fit inside of Shadowlands. We already know about Argus and Draenor, so that's TWO OTHER PLANETS. It just doesn't make narrative sense.

  7. #27
    Hey I didn’t write it hahaha

    I think they are hinting that there is “more than we see” there and the shadowlands are massive and a complete universe opposite of our universe. The 4/5 areas we see are the main areas and they might expand upon it but we are only seeing a small fraction of the entire place.

  8. #28
    I think the datamined Kael'thas model for the raid will actually end up being Garrosh, and Kael was used as either a PH or a distraction.

    And you'll understand why I say that once you play the campaign.

    Unless the campaign is suppose to take place after the Raid, which it kind of seems like it might, but wouldn't make sense for the rest of the quests.
    Last edited by Aerisot; 2020-09-22 at 05:20 AM.

  9. #29
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    I don't think he will end up as a good guy, i wouldn't be surprise if we got to fight him again (one way or the other)
    Siege of Orgrimmar was only a setback...

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    You can't cram that many dead souls into 4 covenants, and they can't make up some stuff that there are some realms we don't know about... They've explicitly stated that the Shadowlands is dependent on the 4 covenants and the Maw working correctly, so you can't have unaccounted souls roaming around doing their own thing.
    They actually explicitly stated that there are realms we don't know about, potentially an infinite number of them. The reason we only see these four is that they are the important ones they want to tell the story for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Addiena
    Whats the saying .. You have two brain cells and they are both fighting for third place !

  11. #31
    Why would garrosh be friendly with us? He's a prideful as fuck and we get him into shadowlands in the first place. The moment he sees us he will want us choke to death.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Stickiler View Post
    They actually explicitly stated that there are realms we don't know about, potentially an infinite number of them. The reason we only see these four is that they are the important ones they want to tell the story for.
    So you're telling me that somehow the balance of an omni-universal afterlife somehow relies SOLELY on a 5 party system smaller than an entire planet, yet this plane of existence possibly has an infinite number of realms/covenants/clans?

    There's a huge hole in this... like... there would be an infinite number of covenants that would be fighting for the sake of the Shadowlands should there be an infinite number of realms that rely on the system but also like... why would such a small subsection of the afterlife control the entire afterlife without at least mentioning the lesser realms or something?

  13. #33
    Stood in the Fire Greyfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    So you're telling me that somehow the balance of an omni-universal afterlife somehow relies SOLELY on a 5 party system smaller than an entire planet, yet this plane of existence possibly has an infinite number of realms/covenants/clans?

    There's a huge hole in this... like... there would be an infinite number of covenants that would be fighting for the sake of the Shadowlands should there be an infinite number of realms that rely on the system but also like... why would such a small subsection of the afterlife control the entire afterlife without at least mentioning the lesser realms or something?
    Yes they have stated the shadowlands are potentially infinite. We're just seeing a couple of zones/factions within the endless afterlife. Seriously they've said this several times, and the shadowlands is even the "same" across timelines/realities, so you have for instance different versions of the dead Warlords somewhere roaming in the infinite shadowlands.

  14. #34
    Field Marshal Artale's Avatar
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    If Garrosh does anything other than get drained for all he has I will swap Covenant in a heartbeat. As said by others, he should've been thrown into the Maw.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfang View Post
    Yes they have stated the shadowlands are potentially infinite. We're just seeing a couple of zones/factions within the endless afterlife. Seriously they've said this several times, and the shadowlands is even the "same" across timelines/realities, so you have for instance different versions of the dead Warlords somewhere roaming in the infinite shadowlands.
    ...so how exactly is everything contained within 5 small areas then? I'm not saying I don't understand this, I'm just saying that I don't understand how it the way they wrote this can possibly work.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    ...so how exactly is everything contained within 5 small areas then? I'm not saying I don't understand this, I'm just saying that I don't understand how it the way they wrote this can possibly work.
    In Oribos besides the 4 gateways to the zones there are countless unactivated ones all around the city. Also, usually ingame mass isn't a accurate representation in lore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
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  17. #37
    If he shows up at all in game I figure 1 of 3 things happens.
    1, and the worst in my opinion) he is redeemed and helps us, whether Horde or Alliance.
    2, the best option) we come on him at some point and he either (a) pleads for freedom, or (b) tells off Thrall and Thrall basically just tells him he is where he deserves to be. I think A wouldn’t fit his character and shouldn’t happen.
    3, I can see this likely) he will be an early boss in a raid at some point where he was given his freedom from torture in an oath to serve.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    If he shows up at all in game I figure 1 of 3 things happens.
    1, and the worst in my opinion) he is redeemed and helps us, whether Horde or Alliance.
    2, the best option) we come on him at some point and he either (a) pleads for freedom, or (b) tells off Thrall and Thrall basically just tells him he is where he deserves to be. I think A wouldn’t fit his character and shouldn’t happen.
    3, I can see this likely) he will be an early boss in a raid at some point where he was given his freedom from torture in an oath to serve.
    I think 3. is the most likely, I still think based on what I've played in the beta, Kael'thas is not suppose to be in the raid (unless he betrays us and reverts back to his sin stone(Why would he do that)) I think his sin stone model was a place holder, kind of liek the three sisters of the moon in Tomb of Sargaras, how they were datamined to be actual lore characters, but ended up being nobodies.

    I think the same thing is going on here, I think Kael'thas model is a PH for Garrosh in the fight.

    I do believe we free him though.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    W-wait... Why would he even BE IN THE FUCKING SHADOWLANDS?! He died on Draenor????????
    The Shadowlands are connected to every world, every reality. It isn't the afterlife for only Azeroth or only our timeline.

    That's why we see a Night Warrior from a different planet. That's why Ursoc shows up in Ardenweald, despite him dying in the Dream. That's why we see Vashj, who died on Outland, as well as Kael.
    Last edited by Destinas; 2020-09-22 at 09:16 PM.
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    btw: Spires of Arak = Arakkoa.

  20. #40
    Stood in the Fire Greyfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    ...so how exactly is everything contained within 5 small areas then? I'm not saying I don't understand this, I'm just saying that I don't understand how it the way they wrote this can possibly work.
    For one, Gameplay =/= Lore. The shadowlands in lore are infinite, there are infinite realms of which we are initially only visiting a few. As someone else said, the portals for other infinite realms are all around oribos but for gameplay reasons we obviously cant use them. The story they are telling in this expansion revolves around these few zones we'll be visiting, but the anima drought and the problems with the Arbiter/Jailer presumably affect all infinite realms within SL.

    As for why they've chosen to go this way, I suspect there are several reasons. For once, if we only visited Azeroth Shadowlands and they were finite, people would be asking all the time "wheres X character who we killed X time ago". They cant show every single character that has died in Azeroth's history, so having infinite shadowlands that encompass the whole reality gives them an easy excuse not to show every single dead character. They can simply say "They're out there somewhere in the infinite shadowlands, we wont meet them in this expansion".
    Another reason is that they're building up to a cosmic-level threat and story for the future. This shows with the Dreadlord book found in revendreth and a plan involving all planes of reality including shadowlands, so they're upping the threat levels, we're no longer going to be fighting for Azeroth but it seems all planes of existence are being threatened right now.

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