Ret getting nerfed hard again in alpha while not addressing gameplay issues.

[Dravec]

Nah. Ret is missing utility. All the good utility got removed. That is the PvE problem.

Indeed Ret has the damage atm, but you are out of your mind if you think nerfs aren't coming to ES and Final reckoning. It nearly one-shots people. Threads are already on the official forums. When it goes live, a deluge will happen cause no one accepts that from Ret.

So, where will you be once you get nerfed? What will you bring? 3% damage reduction *snort*? You are being naive. Some of us have made this dance enough times that we know what's going to happen and are trying to avoid it. But, it's never worked so far.

So, it most definitely is doom and gloom, sorry to inform. Unless Blizzard wakes up before it's too late. Chances are they won't though. And Ret is gonna be a pariah for the whole of SL with another revamp come next xpac.

I’ll be bringing blessings and an immunity...

Like, you know there can be more than one Paladin in a raid right? Prot pally isn’t a top tier tank atm and you don’t want two holy pallies. Even if Hpally ends up being op or something, can still bring a Ret. The world first N’Zoth kill had a Ret in it and Ret was in a far worse state in BfA than it is in SL.

Ferals and WWs are in a far worse position for utility.

[Swnem]

I only do m+ so cant really say much on raid viability, but from the testing I've done there is no reason to play Ret as Prot / Holy provide the same utility but also do their jobs better.

I'll be switching to Rogue / DK and maybe level the Ret as an alt; maybe a couple of major patches in it might feel as good as the burst machine it is just now - the problem is Light's Decree, VoP + full mastery is the most viable it's felt all expansion and that's pretty much all gone.

Basically what this guy says.

Ret will not be high dps. Even now that it is said we are, we aren't.

https://www.wowmeta.com/shadowlands/dps-rankings

We are mid of the table. When nerfs hit, we will be below middle. Below average dps without utility in an expansion without scrolls. Why would anyone want a Ret? Bring a monk. Better dps and 5% debuff, bring a DH, 5% debuff, bring a DK combat res, AoE magical defensive, grips or bring a rogue, all the immunities on lower CD and better damage. Honestly, even a shaman is better cause they bring windfury and heroism/bloodlust. Warrior, battle shout. I would say feral is the one that is closest to ret but they bring a combat res. So, why on earth would you bring a Ret? 3% damage reduction and low dps? It's not worth man.

I’ll be bringing blessings and an immunity...

Like, you know there can be more than one Paladin in a raid right? Prot pally isn’t a top tier tank atm and you don’t want two holy pallies.

Ferals and WWs are in a far worse position for utility.

Above. Your phisical immunity has a 3m cooldown. Your bubble 5m cd (unless you nerf your mobility even more). It sucks. If you mean cause of what Preach says, dwarf racials wipe bleeds and have a 2m CD. Rogue and Hunter have better immunities. The weak ass immunity that is not comparable to the utility that other classes have.
Have you ever been brought to a group and someone said: Oh yeah, we really want you cause of that BoP? Very, very rare. Also, yeah cause your group will prefer a Prot or Holy that will bring that. Why would they need to drag a weak dps with no utility around? Literally worst melee atm.

You can say i am "doom and gloom", but this is reality. You will feel it. Good luck getting into mythic+ groups, honestly. No one will want us.

Basically, we desperately need utility. We need our good AoE WoG and at least our blessing of wisdom back. That or give us a 5% debuff too.
Oh and please don't bring blessing of seasons up. That is not utility of any form. You will use them all on yourself and cannot time it for the healer one to be of any use. Not that it is nearly as good as wisdom.

[idnn]

Basically what this guy says.

Ret will not be high dps. Even now that it is said we are, we aren't.

https://www.wowmeta.com/shadowlands/dps-rankings

We are mid of the table. When nerfs hit, we will below middle. Below average dps without utility in an expansion without scrolls. Why would anyone want a Ret? Bring a monk. Better dps and 5% debuff, bring a DH, 5% debuff, bring a DK combat res, AoE magical defensive, grips or bring a rogue, all the immunities on lower CD and better damage. Honestly, even a shaman is better cause they bring windfury and heroism/bloodlust. Warrior, battle shout. I would say feral is the one that is closest to ret but they bring a combat res. So, why on earth would you bring a Ret? 3% damage reduction and low dps? It's not worth man.



Above. Your phisical immunity has a 3m cooldown. You bubble 5m cd. It sucks. If you mean cause of what Preach says, dwarf racials wipe bleeds and have a 2m CD. Rogue and Hunter have better immunities. The weak ass immunity that is not comparable to the utility the other classes have.
Have you ever been brought to a group and someone said. Oh yeah, we really want you cause of that BoP? Very very rare. Also, yeah cause your group will prefer a Prot or Holy that will bring that. Why would they need to drag a weak dps with no utility around? Literally worst melee atm.

You can say i am "doom and gloom", but this is reality. You will feel it.

stop linking those stupid beta charts. they are inflated with People abusing Scaling and full Sockets and other broken stuff. And also stop using the term NERFS when the Game isnt even out yet. It is called Tuning

[Swnem]

stop linking those stupid beta charts. they are inflated with People abusing Scaling and full Sockets and other broken stuff. And also stop using the term NERFS when the Game isnt even out yet. It is called Tuning

How long do you intend to close your eyes? That is just a sample. The fact is nerfs are coming to ES and Final reckoning. You cannot have 1 shot mechanics.
So, what good does it do dissing that chart? If anything it's optimistic.

It's called: "Nerfed to the ground". We will never be allowed to have high damage. It's a stigma on the community. You know what? Whatever. I tried. Oh sorry, "tuning" not nerf.

You will see. If what i think will happen, happens and we are left with no utility and "low-tuned", you will remember that what i said here was true when you are trying to find groups or trying to get a raid spot. Hey, i tried. If you want to think everything is fine, so be it. We will see.
I prepared my backup so i won't have to suffer through it. Good luck!

[Dravec]

Basically what this guy says.

Ret will not be high dps. Even now that it is said we are, we aren't.

https://www.wowmeta.com/shadowlands/dps-rankings

We are mid of the table. When nerfs hit, we will be below middle. Below average dps without utility in an expansion without scrolls. Why would anyone want a Ret? Bring a monk. Better dps and 5% debuff, bring a DH, 5% debuff, bring a DK combat res, AoE magical defensive, grips or bring a rogue, all the immunities on lower CD and better damage. Honestly, even a shaman is better cause they bring windfury and heroism/bloodlust. Warrior, battle shout. I would say feral is the one that is closest to ret but they bring a combat res. So, why on earth would you bring a Ret? 3% damage reduction and low dps? It's not worth man.



Above. Your phisical immunity has a 3m cooldown. Your bubble 5m cd (unless you nerf your mobility even more). It sucks. If you mean cause of what Preach says, dwarf racials wipe bleeds and have a 2m CD. Rogue and Hunter have better immunities. The weak ass immunity that is not comparable to the utility that other classes have.
Have you ever been brought to a group and someone said: Oh yeah, we really want you cause of that BoP? Very, very rare. Also, yeah cause your group will prefer a Prot or Holy that will bring that. Why would they need to drag a weak dps with no utility around? Literally worst melee atm.

You can say i am "doom and gloom", but this is reality. You will feel it. Good luck getting into mythic+ groups, honestly. No one will want us.

Basically, we desperately need utility. We need our good AoE WoG and at least our blessing of wisdom back. That or give us a 5% debuff too.
Oh and please don't bring blessing of seasons up. That is not utility of any form. You will use them all on yourself and cannot time it for the healer one to be of any use. Not that it is nearly as good as wisdom.

Lmao, don’t @ me with your shitty chart that is horribly inaccurate. Unholy being one of the worst dps is proof enough that shit is wrong.

Y’all are a bunch of LFR heroes with no experience in real raiding. If you were, you’d realize WW monks and ferals have had it far worse for a longer time. If our damage and utility is so bad (it’s not) then why were there 3 pallies on N’Zoth kill? One of which was a Ret? Did Limit not come to MMOchampion to see that Ret sucks?

Our utility is good and one Paladin can’t do it all. There will be Rets, and you whiny babies can go cry about us in PvP instead, at least we actually suck there.

[Tyaz]

so on beta right now everyone is basically wearing the same gear, few stat differences here and there. I am a veteran ret player, when I run dungeons (I am PVE'er so I only care about PVE: Raiding, dungeons, etc) I know my rotation well and how to use CD's once those are gone.. other classes YET again with ease DESTROY US on the meters. Until corruptions came in BFA Rets were hardly getting picked to do M+ raids were fine, but M+ where a majority of people were participating in we were left out, and having the corruptions especially mastery builds help brings us to the table...now without them we see what classes just DO DAMAGE!

Swnem hit is on the head when he said "We will never be allowed to have high damage. It's a stigma on the community"...how many times in conversations have you talked about damage and people reply with but you guys can tank, or Heal or YOU HAVE BUBBLE! I too am sick of having to work three times as hard, gear for items that deal extra damage or add bonus damage JUST to keep up. I too am preparing my back up, because as MUCH as I love my paladin with all my heart...I WILL NOT SUFFER THROUGH this expansion being middle pack, I wanna compete and see myself high on the list constantly and be brought to the mythic plus and be favored!

[Swnem]

Lmao, don’t @ me with your shitty chart that is horribly inaccurate. Unholy being one of the worst dps is proof enough that shit is wrong.

Y’all are a bunch of LFR heroes with no experience in real raiding. If you were, you’d realize WW monks and ferals have had it far worse for a longer time. If our damage and utility is so bad (it’s not) then why were there 3 pallies on N’Zoth kill? One of which was a Ret? Did Limit not come to MMOchampion to see that Ret sucks?

Our utility is good and one Paladin can’t do it all. There will be Rets, and you whiny babies can go cry about us in PvP instead, at least we actually suck there.

I think you are projecting. I'm a mythic raider. Sorry to burst your bubble. If i was an LFR hero i wouldn't care at all. LFR doesn't require utility to get in.

I know ferals have it bad and i know WW don't have it that bad in SL cause of the debuff. The problem with WW is that it's been mechanically slightly broken, but they have always been strong on Mythic+. Not DH strong, but pretty good. WW has a similar problem though, that it's other two specs are just so much better that they see little demand, but at least they have something. Even if there isn't a Prot or Holy, the 3% reduced damage aura doesn't warrant a spot.

Ret sucks is a broad term. I don't think Ret sucks. I think mechanically, it is working pretty alright. What i'm saying is that utility matters A LOT in SL and we don't have it and that our strongest talents atm in SL will see nerfs. Also, how our passives become unusable auras. We just lost with SL from a utility pov.

Presenting BfA as evidence of anything is pointless. I am not saying we have problems in on live atm.

[Delever]

I think you are projecting. I'm a mythic raider. Sorry to burst your bubble. If i was an LFR hero i wouldn't care at all. LFR doesn't require utility to get in.

I know ferals have it bad and i know WW don't have it that bad in SL cause of the debuff. The problem with WW is that it's been mechanically slightly broken, but they have always been strong on Mythic+. Not DH strong, but pretty good. WW has a similar problem though, that it's other two specs are just so much better that they see little demand, but at least they have something. Even if there isn't a Prot or Holy, the 3% reduced damage aura doesn't warrant a spot.

Ret sucks is a broad term. I don't think Ret sucks. I think mechanically, it is working pretty alright. What i'm saying is that utility matters A LOT in SL and we don't have it and that our strongest talents atm in SL will see nerfs. Also, how our passives become unusable auras. We just lost with SL from a utility pov.

Presenting BfA as evidence of anything is pointless. I am not saying we have problems in on live atm.

Blessings are a pretty powerful utility that no other class has.

[Swnem]

Blessings are a pretty powerful utility that no other class has.

What blessings? We don't have those anymore. That is the issue.

[Delever]

What blessings? We don't have those anymore. That is the issue.

We still have freedom, protection and sacrifice and spellwarding which are very powerful.
Kings and wisdom sucked as their BfA itteration anyway sadly.

[Swnem]

We still have freedom, protection and sacrifice and spellwarding which are very powerful.
Kings and wisdom sucked as their BfA itteration anyway sadly.

Spellwarding is prot only. Sacrifice is used for dps with Shield of vengence, and who needs it really? Useful for holy only, really. Who needs freedom? You probably do, cause ret mobility is pants.
These are not things groups will need.

Just think about it. Would you rather your group had that or a 5% damage increase on physical or magical damage. I don't think it's a difficult choice. xD
AoE world of glory was something that could save your group. That was worth it. It makes everyone's job easier. Wisdom let your healer heal for longer and do less drink breaks. Those were useful. Much better than these hardly useful blessings.

[Tyze]

Every expansion it's the same debate.

Ret is fine vs ret is crap.

Yet here we are , playing it. And yet there are ret doing 12/12 and 3k+ in pvp rating.

[Swnem]

Every expansion it's the same debate.

Ret is fine vs ret is crap.

Yet here we are , playing it. And yet there are ret doing 12/12 and 3k+ in pvp rating.

You probably think that is a piece of wisdom, but it's not. We are not talking about BfA or past expansions. We are talking about SL, where our utility was removed and there are no more scrolls. And, no it hasn't been fine all the time and cause some people can clear content with them does in no way prove that they are ok in comparison to others. Anyone can be carried. Try getting that rating with a Ret and with a Rogue and then come tell me the difference. No, you are not spewing wisdom, quite the opposite, you are forcefully wanting to ignore the problem cause you cba.

Also, it is funny how a couple of you now try to twist lack of utility into "ret is crap".

You know, seeing reactions like this, i hope blizzard does nothing. Cause i really want to see the pain and laugh at the people who are trying to minimize the problem. You do deserve to go through it, cause you have learned nothing.

[Demsi]

Every expansion it's the same debate.

Ret is fine vs ret is crap.

Yet here we are , playing it. And yet there are ret doing 12/12 and 3k+ in pvp rating.

did a quick search and there's 11(1.42%) rets out of 776 total players in 3k+ 3v3, that's well below the top 15

https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...spec_filter=70

[Kaver]

Nah. Ret is missing utility. All the good utility got removed. That is the PvE problem.

BoP alone seems to be amazing in SL. Ret got very decent utility for PvE.

[Kalisandra]

We are mid of the table. When nerfs hit, we will be below middle. Below average dps without utility in an expansion without scrolls. Why would anyone want a Ret? Bring a monk. Better dps and 5% debuff, bring a DH, 5% debuff, bring a DK combat res, AoE magical defensive, grips or bring a rogue, all the immunities on lower CD and better damage. Honestly, even a shaman is better cause they bring windfury and heroism/bloodlust. Warrior, battle shout. I would say feral is the one that is closest to ret but they bring a combat res. So, why on earth would you bring a Ret? 3% damage reduction and low dps? It's not worth man.

3% damage reduction is quite a strong effect, provided the healers are being stretched. So it'll be handy on healing-intensive progression fights, and just 'nice' elsewhere. However, it takes one Paladin to bring it, so unless Prot Paladin and Holy Paladin are way off the meta, the auras aren't a reason to bring a ret.

Above. Your phisical immunity has a 3m cooldown. Your bubble 5m cd (unless you nerf your mobility even more).

What's more, as it's the only strong defensive, saving it for a specific mechanic makes a ret very squishy, especially with their low mobility (which makes being in fire more likely). IF you don't save it, and just use it as a defensive, well now ret doesn't have 'immunity' as part of its raid utility.

Have you ever been brought to a group and someone said: Oh yeah, we really want you cause of that BoP? Very, very rare.

The last time I remember was the big dinosaur in Siege of Orgrimmar. That was in MoP...

Basically, we desperately need utility. We need our good AoE WoG and at least our blessing of wisdom back. That or give us a 5% debuff too.

I don't care for Wisdom. It only seems worthwhile because we've nothing else. 2-3 extra heals/min for a healer is 'nice' but's that's all. Also, there's no scaling in it. At least that means having more than one ret in a raid is beneficial for the healers.

[ExiHext]

Every expansion it's the same debate.

Ret is fine vs ret is crap.

Yet here we are , playing it. And yet there are ret doing 12/12 and 3k+ in pvp rating.

Both sides are right. Ret is ok to play in SL, but it is crap in comparison to former iterations. There is no way you compare MoP/WoD ret to Legion/BfA/SL ret and say that BfA/SL is the better iteration. The removal of our mobility alone makes the spec so unenjoyable. Not to speak of better utility (Clemency, old Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame, Sacred Shield, Supplication and Devotion Aura)and talents that where worth the name.
And that is the problem: while the devs develope the game to a more modern, reactive gameplay (especially movement) paladins are developed backwards, stripped of almost everything that made them so much fun.

[Tyze]

Both sides are right. Ret is ok to play in SL, but it is crap in comparison to former iterations. There is no way you compare MoP/WoD ret to Legion/BfA/SL ret and say that BfA/SL is the better iteration. The removal of our mobility alone makes the spec so unenjoyable. Not to speak of better utility (Clemency, old Selfless Healer, Eternal Flame, Sacred Shield, Supplication and Devotion Aura)and talents that where worth the name.
And that is the problem: while the devs develope the game to a more modern, reactive gameplay (especially movement) paladins are developed backwards, stripped of almost everything that made them so much fun.

I agree, WoD Ret was the best imo.

[TheFirstOnes]

As someone who plays Ret on the Beta...

CD's are the only "real" issue regarding PVE. That's it.

[ThiagoTorres]

As someone who plays Ret on the Beta...

CD's are the only "real" issue regarding PVE. That's it.

CD's mobility (not a insue like for pvp but mobility is important to m+ but not a critical one) and damage out of wings..

Ret pve is mid to top in dps metters