If using Magic is not cheating, why didn't Ner'zhul or Gul'dan challenge Grommash?

[Hellobolis]

the big reason to be honorable during makgora is that if you do it to become warchief, it's kinda important that your future subjects think you followed their rules so they willingly follow you.

[XalAtoh]

I see, so it's only cheating to immobilise your opponent.

Sure would be a shame if that was present in another mak'gora.

Oh wait, immobilising shamanic magic being used completely legitimately in another mak'gora.

The other combatant the blood elf doesn't even care about the Mak'gora rules. He was more like "yeah yeah, let's fight". How do you define the rules of Mak'gora with that? With someone who doesn't give a damn about the rules.

Imagine you play Judo and someone doesn't give a damn about the rules and just does his own things (kicking and spitting) and still gets beaten. "Look, this is how Judo is supposed to be played". Some people here....

[tommyhil622]

There's never been a rule forbidding spells or magic, this is an invention in this thread.

Furthermore, there aren't any Mak'Gora universal rules, that's also another invention.

"A popular misconception among the fanbase is that Thrall cheated in his final mak'gora against Garrosh when he used elemental magic. However, there has never been any rule forbidding the use of magic and spells. Moreover, there is a precedent for the use of magic in mak'gora, as both Shagara and Ashra made extensive use of it during their mak'gora. Thrall had also already used magic in the first mak'gora between him and Garrosh, by throwing lightning bolts."

This topic has been discussed to death since WoD, can we give it a rest?

[XalAtoh]

There is no lore that ever states magic is not allowed in the Mak'gora

It's only not allowed if stated it's not allowed beforehand

Cairne stated the rules in lore. And magic was not part of the Mak'gora.

Just because we saw people using magic and literally one-shotting their opponent, like they were shot with a gun. Doesn't mean Mak'gora doesn't has any rules. The meaning of Mak'gora literally is duel of HONOR. Using something like a pistol or magic (basically same thing) is not honorable. More like an act of cowardice, while winner of Mak'gora should bring honor. It's complete the opposite.

[tommyhil622]

Cairne stated the rules in lore. And magic was not part of the Mak'gora.

Just because we saw people using magic and literally one-shotting their opponent, like they were shot with a gun. Doesn't mean Mak'gora doesn't has any rules. The meaning of Mak'gora literally is duel of HONOR. Using something like a pistol or magic (basically same thing) is not honorable. More like an act of cowardice, while winner of Mak'gora should bring honor. It's complete the opposite.

That's incorrect, that's rules they settled on. Mak'gora rules are determined by the participants.

Instances of Mak'gora

check this article it debunks the OP and the entire thread.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mak%27gora

[DarkTZeratul]

Doesn't matter that nobody follows it any more, the fact is that Mak'gora originally HAD rules.

And if nobody follows those rules anymore, then it doesn't fucking matter if people are "cheating" by not using them now.

[XalAtoh]

This topic has been discussed to death since WoD, can we give it a rest?

I'm actually NOT discussing about Thrall being cheater or not. I'm actually discussing why Gul'dan or Ner'zhul never challenged Grommash from AU for a Mak'gora. And how it come that every Orc Chieftain was a Warrior. Gul'dan could easily control the Horde by just challenging 1 by 1 a Mak'gora and one-shotting them honorably with his magic. While the Orcs somehow will cheer and respect Gul'dan for his awesome performance.

[Hellobolis]

Neither Garrosh nor Thrall cheated in their respective duels

But like, then one has to ask why thrall didn't use magic from the get go. if he wanted to punish garrosh he obviously can make him suffer as much with magic as he can with fists/weapons.

maybe he knew the elements would get pissed? then why not use sneaky means to ensure his win ?(wasn't exactly a guarantee afterall) you get back to some form of honor code pretty quickly. a pretty strong honor code too because there weren't any witnesses around.

[tommyhil622]

I'm actually NOT discussing about Thrall being cheater or not. I'm actually discussing why Gul'dan or Ner'zhul never challenged Grommash from AU for a Mak'gora. And how it come that every Orc Chieftain was a Warrior. Gul'dan could easily control the Horde by just challenging 1 by 1 a Mak'gora and one-shotting them honorably with his magic. While the Orcs somehow will cheer and respect Gul'dan for his awesome performance.

So you want to speculate why didn't they? or are you trying to arrive to the "cheating" conclusion with a false premise?

[Hellobolis]

I'm actually NOT discussing about Thrall being cheater or not. I'm actually discussing why Gul'dan or Ner'zhul never challenged Grommash from AU for a Mak'gora. And how it come that every Orc Chieftain was a Warrior. Gul'dan could easily control the Horde by just challenging 1 by 1 a Mak'gora and one-shotting them honorably with his magic. While the Orcs somehow will cheer and respect Gul'dan for his awesome performance.

every orc warchief was a warrior because pre-guldan shamans were seen as spritual leaders, not warleaders. guldan rather had a puppet as the public face. and after guldan there have been non warriors as warchief.

i think there have been shamans as clan chiefs though, but can't really think of one of the top of my head.

[tommyhil622]

snip
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See below

[XalAtoh]

That's incorrect, that's rules they settled on. Mak'gora rules are determined by the participants.

Instances of Mak'gora

check this article it debunks the OP and the entire thread.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mak%27gora

Cairne literally mocks Garrosh for not knowing the "classical rules" in the actual source, it was to show how much aware Cairne was of the Orcish culture and traditions.

I'm not reading Wowpedia articles made by randoms/nobodies, because that creates false lore knowledge, it's great for if you quickly want to learn, but for full detailes? No..

Rather link to official sources as novels like "The Shattering" or shortstories like "Hellscream". Wowpedia is uncompleted and written by randoms.

[Lolites]

AU Ner'zhul could have challenged AU Grommash and chea... won the Mak'gora by just using his Shadow magic (mindblast, shadow corruption etc), same way Thrall did to Garrosh and stopped the Iron Horde.

Same with Gul'dan. He could easily slaughtered Grommash in a Mak'gora with his magic, and take "honorably" over the Iron Horde and made them drink Fel Blood, and eventually installed Blackhand, Kilrogg or Kargath as new Warchief.

well, AU Nerzhul had no reason to challenge Grommash, and Guldan had no oportunity - until cinematic he was doing what Guldan wanted, after that Guldan was imprisoned and even after release (by us) he kind of wasnt part of iron horde so i doubt he had any right to do so...

as for "every Orc Chieftain is a Warrior"... how about no?
Nerzhul was a chieftain and he was not a warior, neither was Thrall, Jorin Deadeye in outland nagrand wears cloth so i doubt he is warior despite being chieftain of bleeding hollow... and those are just who we know of...

[tommyhil622]

Cairne literally mocks Garrosh for not knowing the "classical rules" in the actual source, it was to show how much aware Cairne was of the Orcish culture and traditions.

I'm not reading Wowpedia articles made by randoms/nobodies, because that creates false lore knowledge, it's great for if you quickly want to learn, but for full detailes? No..

Rather link to official sources as novels like "The Shattering" or shortstories like "Hellscream". Wowpedia is uncompleted and written by randoms.

You can hand wave the entire article if you like, but doesn't change the facts.


Guldan was a manipulator, and he intended prior to Garrosh's invervention to fool Grom and the others to drink from the demon's blood. Which in turn would make them slaves to him since had the insider connection with the legion.

In the end he ended up just like he planned prior to being thrawted by the heroes of Azeroth MU.

Ner'Zhul was preoccupied with his void magic and if he ended up surviving our encounter who knows what his plans would be. And that should be the end of this thread.

Although you assert this isn't about the "cheating" involved in the Thrall Duel, at it's very core is about said topic just under the guise of another.

[XalAtoh]

every orc warchief was a warrior because pre-guldan shamans were seen as spritual leaders, not warleaders. guldan rather had a puppet as the public face. and after guldan there have been non warriors as warchief.

He doesn't has to lead, just shot all the current Chieftain that disagrees with him, honorably in a duel. Then install his own minions as the Chieftains. Blackhand for example would gladly be installed as a puppet Warchief by Gul'dan.

i think there have been shamans as clan chiefs though, but can't really think of one of the top of my head.

Yea, Ner'zhul, Drek'thar, in theory if the early Shadow Council counts as a clan, then Gul'dan as well.

Despite that, sure 1 hand countable amount of non-Warrior chieftains, but those are special cases. For Ner'zhul, the whole clan was kinda magic based. Gul'dan count practically take over every other clan with just chain of honorable Mak'gora's.

[tommyhil622]

Garrosh own words:

"What ever you wish, will do. Only let us begin to fight!"

Garrosh complies and says he'll follow all the rules cited by Cairne. He didn't care what the rules are, he just wanted to fight and he agreed to the rules stated by him. This made up thing about magic=cheating is a fanbase contrivance, nothing more.

The rules are determined by the participants.

[Ealyssa]

Wowpedia is uncompleted and written by randoms.

You're a random too buddy, your opinion means shit.

[Lolites]

Despite that, sure 1 hand countable amount of non-Warrior chieftains, but those are special cases.

we know of 15 (well 15 we know more than name of) orc clans, and at least 5 of them had non-warior chieftain, so it doesnt realy seem to be so unusual...

[XalAtoh]

You can hand wave the entire article if you like, but doesn't change the facts.

It depends, if the fanmade article creates their own conclusion, and even contradicts with the actual source (apparently from your post). Then yea, I wouldn't call the that article facts in the first place.

Guldan was a manipulator, and he intended prior to Garrosh's invervention to fool Grom and the others to drink from the demon's blood. Which in turn would make them slaves to him since had the insider connection with the legion.

Gul'dan manipulates for a reason... because he wants to achieve certain goal in the story, which is taking over the Horde and live his life as a power-hungry godlike narcissistic freak.

He could easily achieve his goal by just challenging Mak'gora after Grom rejected his offer. (His WoD manipulation skills was super bad too, so why even bother being manipulator).

In the end he ended up just like he planned prior to being thrawted by the heroes of Azeroth MU.

And, just like every villain Warcraft history? Maybe because his whole plan failed, because it was a dumb plan.... made barely sense when "a cheating normalized" Mak'gora is a thing.

Although you assert this isn't about the "cheating" involved in the Thrall Duel, at it's very core is about said topic just under the guise of another.

Nah, this topic is not about Thrall's duel. The fight is over and Thrall won the fight (not the Mak'gora) was apparently not a cheater, but that decision has consequences to the Orcish and Mak'gora lore.

Yea, the normalization of cheating in Mak'gora of Thrall and Garrosh might have ruined the future of Mak'gora and its meaning. And this topic we discuss about the lore (failure). The fact that almost all of the Chieftains are Warriors and the fact that Gul'dan and Ner'zhul never made use of Mak'gora.

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Garrosh own words:

"What ever you wish, will do. Only let us begin to fight!"

Garrosh complies and says he'll follow all the rules cited by Cairne. He didn't care what the rules are, he just wanted to fight and he agreed to the rules stated by him. This made up thing about magic=cheating is a fanbase contrivance, nothing more.

The rules are determined by the participants.

I know that Garrosh doesn't know the rules, which I always felt was very odd, since he is born and raised on Draenor and hangout with Saurfang, hang out and being leader of Warsong Orcs and Mag'har Orcs and other veteran old Orcs.

The fact that he doesn't know is already a plothole. Somehow Cairne miraculously know it before Garrosh. But ignoring that, the book still shows that there are rules and traditions. Garrosh doesn't care, doesn't mean there are no rules.

The Mak'gora failed with the witness aspect alone. If the players were the witness, then the Youtube comment sections speaks a lot... at least in-game there should be surrounded by AU Warsong Orcs. But no.

[tommyhil622]

It depends, if the fanmade article creates their own conclusion, and even contradicts with the actual source (apparently from your post). Then yea, I wouldn't call the that article facts in the first place.



Gul'dan manipulates for a reason... because he wants to achieve certain goal in the story, which is taking over the Horde and live his life as a power-hungry godlike narcissistic freak.

He could easily achieve his goal by just challenging Mak'gora after Grom rejected his offer. (His WoD manipulation skills was super bad too, so why even bother being manipulator).



And, just like every villain Warcraft history? Maybe because his whole plan failed, because it was a dumb plan.... made barely sense when "a cheating normalized" Mak'gora is a thing.



Nah, this topic is not about Thrall's duel. The fight is over and Thrall won the fight (not the Mak'gora) was apparently not a cheater, but that decision has consequences to the Orcish and Mak'gora lore.

Yea, the normalization of cheating in Mak'gora of Thrall and Garrosh might have ruined the future of Mak'gora and its meaning. And this topic we discuss about the lore (failure). The fact that almost all of the Chieftains are Warriors and the fact that Gul'dan and Ner'zhul never made use of Mak'gora.

- - - Updated - - -



I know that Garrosh doesn't know the rules, which I always felt was very odd, since he is born and raised on Draenor and hangout with Saurfang, hang out and being leader of Warsong Orcs and Mag'har Orcs and other veteran old Orcs.

The fact that he doesn't know is already a plothole. Somehow Cairne miraculously know it before Garrosh. But ignoring that, the book still shows that there are rules and traditions. Garrosh doesn't care, doesn't mean there are no rules.

The Mak'gora failed with the witness aspect alone. If the players were the witness, then the Youtube comment sections speaks a lot... at least in-game there should be surrounded by AU Warsong Orcs. But no.

The problem is your missing the point. No where in the rules they agreed upon addresses no magic or spells. The rules are created and agreed upon the participants and that's it. Using magic is not cheating. Now you can believe its cheating but that would be entirely up to your opinion.