If using Magic is not cheating, why didn't Ner'zhul or Gul'dan challenge Grommash?

[Venziir]

well, AU Nerzhul had no reason to challenge Grommash, and Guldan had no oportunity - until cinematic he was doing what Guldan wanted, after that Guldan was imprisoned and even after release (by us) he kind of wasnt part of iron horde so i doubt he had any right to do so...

as for "every Orc Chieftain is a Warrior"... how about no?
Nerzhul was a chieftain and he was not a warior, neither was Thrall, Jorin Deadeye in outland nagrand wears cloth so i doubt he is warior despite being chieftain of bleeding hollow... and those are just who we know of...

Thrall was a trained gladiator before becoming a shaman. He bested Doomhammer in a fist fight before even learning how to speak to as much as a snowflake.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

the actual rules were the ones used in the shattering, when Garrosh invoked the "OG" mak'gora against Cairne

only one weapon, if it fall you use your fists
no armor
to the death

the other ones were adapted to the moment/period of time, like not being to the death, armor being allowed if both wee using and were ok, the point was: it still have to be a honorable fight

Ah, I remember that he wanted to do it to the death like the old ways but couldn't remember if every thing else was the OG rules or not.

[XalAtoh]

The problem is your missing the point. No where in the rules they agreed upon addresses no magic or spells. The rules are created and agreed upon the participants and that's it. Using magic is not cheating. Now you can believe its cheating but that would be entirely up to your opinion.

Cairne explained the rules in details, no mention of magic. He only tells what's allowed:

Loin cloth, 1 weapon, 1 blessing of shaman if you want, at least 1 witness for each side.

Why 1 blessing? Thrall used Thunder, Wind, Earth, Fire. That's at-least 4 "blessings" if we can call full blown involvement of deadly elemental attacks a blessing.

[tommyhil622]

Cairne explained the rules in details, no mention of magic. He only tells what's allowed:

Loin cloth, 1 weapon, 1 blessing of shaman if you want, at least 1 witness for each side.

Why 1 blessing? Thrall used Thunder, Wind, Earth, Fire. That's at-least 4 "blessings" if we can call full blown involvement of deadly elemental attacks a blessing.

Actually Thrall didn't bless his weapon at all, you still missing the point. Re-read the entire quote.

[Timester]

Cairne explained the rules in details, no mention of magic. He only tells what's allowed:

Loin cloth, 1 weapon, 1 blessing of shaman if you want, at least 1 witness for each side.

Why 1 blessing? Thrall used Thunder, Wind, Earth, Fire. That's at-least 4 "blessings" if we can call full blown involvement of deadly elemental attacks a blessing.

Those are the old traditional rules. The fact it was requested as such, it means that Mak'gora became something else over time.

[Traveler Voltin]

why are you continuing to argue with him? its clear he refused to learn/listen.

[tommyhil622]

Those are the old traditional rules. The fact it was requested as such, it means that Mak'gora became something else over time.

It's not even the old rules, the old rules actually less specific. Cairne asked the general rules and then he went into specifics for that particular fight. Xalatoh is lumping everything together and every battle like they have to follow the specific rules that Cairne specified.

“What weapon? What Garb to Wear? How many Witnesses?”

That's the original "ruleset or guidlines"

Then after Cairne noticed Garrosh didn't know what they were or at least didn't remember them, he added specifics for that specifics fight.

But seeing how the thread keeps going, i have nothing more to say.

[Lolites]

Thrall was a trained gladiator before becoming a shaman. He bested Doomhammer in a fist fight before even learning how to speak to as much as a snowflake.

sure, however he was chieftain and shaman
and theres no reason to assume other orc shamans/priests or whatever didnt learn how to fight, after all as far as we know shamans are not born, they are chosen by the elements later in their life so they could have combat training before...

[TheFirstOnes]

I believe that was only because he used Doomhammer/the power he borrows from the Elements for his own gain and they weren't a fan of that, so they stopped answering his call.

No. Thrall was conflicted after defeating Garrosh, which caused the elements to abandon him as a response.

[Aucald]

Mak'gora has no hard and fast "rules" - these are decided upon by the participants in any given Mak'gora ahead of time, as part of the formal challenge. Outside of these pre-established rules Mak'gora is basically a free for all in terms of combat, will any kind of combat ability (including magic) being available for use. Mak'gora also appears to be a ritual form of combat the Orcs inherited from their Ogre forbearers, who also retain the tradition, albeit with the extra provision that it is limited for the use of Ogres and that a non-Ogre cannot call for a Mak'gora and expect it to be honored.

Popularly, there have been claims that Thrall "cheated" in both his Mak'gora duels with Garrosh Hellscream - but this is not the case. Magic has been used in several different Mak'gora duels, and the "traditional" duel that Cairne demanded of Garrosh is far from the only type of Mak'gora there is (in fact, it has only been used once thus far). More recently, Thrall's use of Shamanism to defeat Garrosh in their second Mak'gora at Nagrand was also not a cheat, as Thrall is exonerated and his loss of Shamanism is explained in the Words of Wind and Earth concerning the Doomhammer:

Through the years, Thrall wielded the Doomhammer with honor and integrity. However, following his execution of the malign warchief Garrosh Hellscream, Thrall felt conflicted. This internal struggle was reflected in the Doomhammer as well. In Thrall's mind, the weapon that had embodied the ideals of justice and virtue had now come to represent vengeance.

Thrall's own internal conflict is the reason he surrendered the Doomhammer and has issues with his Shamanic power today, not the censure of the Elements.

[Venziir]

sure, however he was chieftain and shaman
and theres no reason to assume other orc shamans/priests or whatever didnt learn how to fight, after all as far as we know shamans are not born, they are chosen by the elements later in their life so they could have combat training before...

None of that is even remotely relevant, nor does it change the fact that Thrall, despite all his other achievements and merits, was still a fighter before anything else. He's a hero character, they aren't bound by the same class restrictions as player characters - urgh, this game is almost 16 years old, how are people still not understanding that?

[Lolites]

None of that is even remotely relevant, nor does it change the fact that Thrall, despite all his other achievements and merits, was still a fighter before anything else. He's a hero character, they aren't bound by the same class restrictions as player characters - urgh, this game is almost 16 years old, how are people still not understanding that?

how the hell is a fact he is not a warior and he was a chieftain not relevant to the statement "every chieftain was a warior"... the statement i was arguing about wasnt "every chieftain knew how to fight" but LITERALY that they were wariors, meaning they had no magical skills, which Thrall does have...
how are people out of elementary school and still unable to read with comprehension...

[Makorus]

In-game Thrall was losing, but even if Thrall was winning in other novels or short-stories and even closely one-shots Garrosh, that's whole point of this topic. If someone with magic can literally one-shot someone it's basically a pistol-based duel, except bolts are so large and fast, that Mak'gora isn't even about about combat or honor, it's about who can cast their magic first aka "who can pull the trigger first wins".

Garrosh was a worse fighter than Thrall and lost. Garrosh was all "oh yeah, being a warrior is all about STRENGTH!" when theres also magic. Thrall literally makes that point.

If a person gets "one-shot" by someone, yeah, they deserve to lose. Its a duel not a showmatch lol

[XalAtoh]

Actually Thrall didn't bless his weapon at all, you still missing the point. Re-read the entire quote.

Your point is participants pick the rules and that Garrosh doesn't care about the rules. But because Garrosh doesn't care about the rules Thrall was allowed to chea.. I mean use magic?

Is that it? Is that your point?

Just because Garrosh doesn't care about the rules, doesn't mean the Mak'gora itself has no traditions/rules, it's same as with that other Blood Elf duel.. same thing.

Garrosh life depends on the rules with the Mak'gora of Thrall. Because if magic was allowed Thrall would obviously one-shotted him like a pistol in a boxing fight. Unless Garrosh doesn't care about dying by Thrall ... sure that does make Garrosh a fearless of death. But that makes still NO sense.

The fact that Garrosh agrees with a rules where he can get one-shotted anytime Thrall wants, how does that work? This whole duel ended up with Thrall cheating OR Garrosh knew he has no chance and he accepts to die, without any chance to win.

But that will create problems with why Gul'dan and Ner'zhul never used Mak'gora when it's all so benefiting them. They could won any Mak'gora of the famous Orc clans and climb up higher in the Orcish hierarchy than they currently were.

Imo it makes 2 failures (maybe even 3):

1) Garrosh just accepts dying, doesn't even bother specifying rules that could give equal winning chance.
2) It never came into the mind of Gul'dan and Ner'zhul to use the "cheating/magic normalized" Mak'gora.

[Garthul]

I have a thought. The problem with thrall wasn't magic. It was that thrall EXECUTED Garrosh AFTER thrall had won. Which was out of character for him. Thrall had garrosh beat when he grabbed him with the earth hand. The fight was over, then Thrall killed him with lightning. For someone like thrall, this act was way out of character, and outside of Thralls personal view of honor.

If we watch the fight again. Thrall is clearly the more skilled warrior, he has complete control of the fight until garrosh throws his weapon as a gambit (an actual combat tactic in history, and a risky one.) This surprises thrall enough for garrosh to gain control, only for a short time before Thrall uses magic to win the fight.

Tldr, thrall didn't cheat, but overstepped and betrayed his own sense of morality by executing a subdued opponent

This is sort of invented morality you've made for Thrall, although with the way he's been presented at times in game I can understand why you would think this. He has no moral issue executing a subdued opponent. He didn't hesitate to kill Garrosh the first time during the Siege of Orgrimmar, and only Varian's interference spared Garrosh at that time. I also remember a very old book, Cycle of Hatred I believe, where a rogue faction of orcs attempted to attack Theramore and Thrall showed up at the last moment and just absolutely obliterated the skull of the rogue faction leader when the orc was prostrate on the ground before him.
He's a more brutal character than people often frame him as.

Regarding Mak-Gora: I don't have a problem with the claim that he cheated, but the idea that the elements cut him off for it is so stupid. It would make more sense that the orcs rejected him for abandoning his honor and he swore off the elements himself out of shame. Mak-gora is part of the arbitrary honor code of the orc tribes, not an observance of the laws of the elements.

[XalAtoh]

Let's say an evil person uses fists, and a good person seeking to save people uses magic - is it still dishonorable in your mind?

- - - Updated - - -



Well because perhaps Thrall didn't want to outright kill Garrosh, perhaps he wanted to beat him for a bit - who knows

It depends, it's actually questionable if Garrosh is evil, maybe to some, but not to everybody.

You can always make someone look more evil. Especially if they have reasons for it to behave like that.

But if Thrall challenged someone a duel and cheats to save his own people (or maybe himself and his pride), it's not in the scope of honor. He is just selfish.

[Timester]

sure, however he was chieftain and shaman
and theres no reason to assume other orc shamans/priests or whatever didnt learn how to fight, after all as far as we know shamans are not born, they are chosen by the elements later in their life so they could have combat training before...

Thrall defeated Doomhammer even before he trained to become a shaman.

It's something that was forgotten over time on the lore, but Thrall is one of the best orcish warriors alive, that was trained to fight and lead the Horde by humans since he was a baby.

[XalAtoh]

Mak'gora has no hard and fast "rules" - these are decided upon by the participants in any given Mak'gora ahead of time, as part of the formal challenge. Outside of these pre-established rules Mak'gora is basically a free for all in terms of combat, will any kind of combat ability (including magic) being available for use. Mak'gora also appears to be a ritual form of combat the Orcs inherited from their Ogre forbearers, who also retain the tradition, albeit with the extra provision that it is limited for the use of Ogres and that a non-Ogre cannot call for a Mak'gora and expect it to be honored.

Popularly, there have been claims that Thrall "cheated" in both his Mak'gora duels with Garrosh Hellscream - but this is not the case. Magic has been used in several different Mak'gora duels, and the "traditional" duel that Cairne demanded of Garrosh is far from the only type of Mak'gora there is (in fact, it has only been used once thus far). More recently, Thrall's use of Shamanism to defeat Garrosh in their second Mak'gora at Nagrand was also not a cheat, as Thrall is exonerated and his loss of Shamanism is explained in the Words of Wind and Earth concerning the Doomhammer:

Thrall's own internal conflict is the reason he surrendered the Doomhammer and has issues with his Shamanic power today, not the censure of the Elements.

Sure, but that's not actually what this topic is about.

This topic is about why Gul'dan (or Ner'zhul) never challenged Grom a "cheating/magic normalized" Mak'gora. Gul'dan can literally "honorably" one shot Grom like with a pistol and claim victory and honor with Mak'gora (Duel of Honor). Warsong Orcs will respect Gul'dan for killing their feared and respected Chieftain "honorably" and "fairly".

Gul'dan gets what he wants, and he also gets respect from winning the Mak'gora.

[Venziir]

how the hell is a fact he is not a warior and he was a chieftain not relevant to the statement "every chieftain was a warior"... the statement i was arguing about wasnt "every chieftain knew how to fight" but LITERALY that they were wariors, meaning they had no magical skills, which Thrall does have...
how are people out of elementary school and still unable to read with comprehension...

Just stop, you are embarrasing yourself.

[Aucald]

Sure, but that's not actually what this topic is about.

This topic is about why Gul'dan (or Ner'zhul) never challenged Grom a "cheating/magic normalized" Mak'gora. Gul'dan can literally "honorably" one shot Grom like with a pistol and claim victory and "honor" with Mak'gora (Duel of Honor). Warsong Orcs will respect Gul'dan for killing their feared and respected Chieftain "honorably" and "fairly".

Probably because Gul'dan knew (rightly) that the Horde would never follow him, because he personally speaking had little to no honor and very little respect among the Horde as a whole - that is why the Shadow Council existed in the first place, to give Gul'dan all the levers of power while an "honorable" Orc exemplar like Blackhand served as the figurehead. Just like in real life, what is honorable or considered cheating is often entirely subjective and more often highly dependent on whether or not you received the outcome you wanted from a given conflict. Orgrim honorably defeated Blackhand in Mak'gora as well, but because Orgrim lacked Blackhand's popularity he was branded as a betrayer and called "The Backstabber" for a time afterward regardless.

If Gul'dan or Ner'zhul were widely respected and considered personally honorable, then yes; they could use their magical powers to slay any given Warchief in Mak'gora and the Horde as a whole would probably rally behind them.