How can the blood elves be okay with the San'layn and not the void elves?

[Ardenaso]

I would liek to see the San'layn developed. they could be the edgy side of the blood elves. And they coudl have al ot more depth than just rarrgh, evil blood suckers.

If blizzard did this right, it could be the case of the "empathetic" or "compassionate" vampire - ala Twilgiht/Vampire Diary series, but also with a bit of a hard and bloody edge too.

it has a lot of potential if you ask me. They should develop them more.

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You know what Ravenmoon can be like sometimes - I don't think he is very fond of the horde. Still, I would like San'layn to have a much larger role, they can provide an interesting addition to the whole werewolf, zombie scene, but with parallels and connections to Quel'thalas. the thign is there isn't a functioning society in Lordaeron, it's undead life there, so the San'lyan can explore what being undead is like in a functioning society that with all the qualms of the blood elves.

Yes! There's San'layn being revived by the Mawsworn, I hope they join the Horde if they get freed

[Raisei]

Blood Elves are obviously quite okay with evil undead and their methods, long as they are not used against them, otherwise the cooperation with the Forsaken would be impossible.

They haven't kicked out the Void Elves because they use dark magics, but because that specific type of dark magic is dangerous to them. A moral judgement from the Belfs would have been too hilarious probably.

[Varodoc]

You know that they were facing extinction and thought it was their only hope right?

And?

10chars

[Raisei]

I would liek to see the San'layn developed. they could be the edgy side of the blood elves. And they coudl have al ot more depth than just rarrgh, evil blood suckers.

If blizzard did this right, it could be the case of the "empathetic" or "compassionate" vampire - ala Twilgiht/Vampire Diary series, but also with a bit of a hard and bloody edge too.

it has a lot of potential if you ask me. They should develop them more.

Not sure WoWs engine could do the "sparkle" effect during day time decently tho.

But seriously, Blood Death Knights are basically vampires (including abilities like Vampiric Blood, Blood Boil and Blood Drinker) and since the Ebon Blade is a non-evil organisation, it fits the bill.

[Vaedan]

But that's the point, the "correct" answer is subjective. I'd say Void Elves and Alleria think like this, but the BElven leadership is choosing to instead ban any Void usage to minimize any risk.

Both aproaches may backfire, as you present your scenario is a possibility, but the opposite is also true, where overconfidence, or even safety protocols being bypassed or betrayal, could irreparably affect the Sunwell. We can't say there's a "right way" because either could backfire. All it takes for the opposite to end up horribly is for one Void Elf being corrupted and use their powers to purposefully tamper with the Sunwell, and let's not pretend some of the biggest catastrophes and conflicts have been created by a rogue elf agent.

So risk vs Reward, the only way to account for any security leaks is a complete lockdown, but at the same time, not studying the void makes you less prepared. Couldn't they just study the void far away? They could and they might, yet there's always the possibility any of those scholars is corrupted by the void and gets access/convinces people to infiltrate the Sunwell.

Well, you know the saying "keep your allies close and your enemies closer"? If there is a group of people who poses threat to your safety, you want to have as much information as possible regarding their activities. If these people happen to be citizens of your country, you can do following:
- executre them, risking causing civil unrest and labelling them martyrs
- spy on them and restrict/harass them as much as possible, which cause them to give up on their activities/beliefs and submit to your reign. This approach risks that strong willed individuals will stand up against you.
- exile them. In this case, you remove immediate threat, but you lost all your knowledge of that group, letting them do whatever they want. In addition, you give them solid reason for acting against you, especially when they join superpower you are in war with. Not to mention that void elves are mostly former magisters, so they most likely know some Silvermoon secrets, which can indeed compromise it's safety in the future.
- lastly you can "befriend" them, make them loyal to you. Reward them, make them feel aknowledged and allow them to do what they want in a way safe for you. In this case, you minimize possibility to betray you. Since you are in control of the group, you know what's going on with them and can act.

As we have seen, neither Rommath or Lor'themar knew how to deal with void crisis, so once Sunwell will be endangered by it, they have little to no answer. I can understand why they chose to exile Umbric's group, but it is shortsighted decision based on fear.

Then what's this thread about? As far as we know, the blood elves had no say in the san'layn's admittance and may not even know about them, considering they only are seen with Forsaken sailors, Rokhan, and Talanji. They should be seen as members of the Forsaken during their brief membership given to them by Sylvanas, not members of the blood elves or owing their membership to the blood elves.

As of BfA San'layn appearance in the Horde, yes, Silvermoon most likely took no part in that. What's interesting is that Dark Rangers who stayed with the Horde after Sylvanas left are identifying both with Forsaken and Blood elves. They consider themself part of both societies, rightfuly so. I don't see a reason why should they abandon their elven heritage only because they are undead. They may, but they don't have to. Same could be applied to San'layn, but it all depends on how would they be pictured if this scenario will ever happen.

undead is the theme of forsaken

It indeed is, but it is also minor theme of blood elves as well. Dark Rangers are there since birth of Forsaken and as we seen them actually caring about their homeland for which they died for. Velonara made it pretty clear she feels both Forsaken and Sin'dorei. As of TBC and WotLK, Sylvanas also showed she is still fond of Quel'thalas.

I would liek to see the San'layn developed. they could be the edgy side of the blood elves. And they coudl have al ot more depth than just rarrgh, evil blood suckers.

If blizzard did this right, it could be the case of the "empathetic" or "compassionate" vampire - ala Twilgiht/Vampire Diary series, but also with a bit of a hard and bloody edge too.

it has a lot of potential if you ask me. They should develop them more.

I agree. It could actually lead into interesting stories in the future. One thing it adds to blood elves is their long lost dark side, while not directing whole race to the evil path. They are also one of the most requested race to add right now and I feel this request will continue until we see them implemented in some way (allied race or customization for blood elves/forsaken), as we've seen in the case of high elf request.

[Rhlor]

Well, you know the saying "keep your allies close and your enemies closer"? If there is a group of people who poses threat to your safety, you want to have as much information as possible regarding their activities. If these people happen to be citizens of your country, you can do following:
- executre them, risking causing civil unrest and labelling them martyrs
- spy on them and restrict/harass them as much as possible, which cause them to give up on their activities/beliefs and submit to your reign. This approach risks that strong willed individuals will stand up against you.
- exile them. In this case, you remove immediate threat, but you lost all your knowledge of that group, letting them do whatever they want. In addition, you give them solid reason for acting against you, especially when they join superpower you are in war with. Not to mention that void elves are mostly former magisters, so they most likely know some Silvermoon secrets, which can indeed compromise it's safety in the future.
- lastly you can "befriend" them, make them loyal to you. Reward them, make them feel aknowledged and allow them to do what they want in a way safe for you. In this case, you minimize possibility to betray you. Since you are in control of the group, you know what's going on with them and can act.

As we have seen, neither Rommath or Lor'themar knew how to deal with void crisis, so once Sunwell will be endangered by it, they have little to no answer. I can understand why they chose to exile Umbric's group, but it is shortsighted decision based on fear.



As of BfA San'layn appearance in the Horde, yes, Silvermoon most likely took no part in that. What's interesting is that Dark Rangers who stayed with the Horde after Sylvanas left are identifying both with Forsaken and Blood elves. They consider themself part of both societies, rightfuly so. I don't see a reason why should they abandon their elven heritage only because they are undead. They may, but they don't have to. Same could be applied to San'layn, but it all depends on how would they be pictured if this scenario will ever happen.



It indeed is, but it is also minor theme of blood elves as well. Dark Rangers are there since birth of Forsaken and as we seen them actually caring about their homeland for which they died for. Velonara made it pretty clear she feels both Forsaken and Sin'dorei. As of TBC and WotLK, Sylvanas also showed she is still fond of Quel'thalas.



I agree. It could actually lead into interesting stories in the future. One thing it adds to blood elves is their long lost dark side, while not directing whole race to the evil path. They are also one of the most requested race to add right now and I feel this request will continue until we see them implemented in some way (allied race or customization for blood elves/forsaken), as we've seen in the case of high elf request.

Sylvanas doesn't like anything, she's a monster.
all dark rangers that also include humans and night elves so far are part of the forsaken society and live their own undead country

I consider myself the pope of Rome! I guess that's enough for me to live in the Vatican right?

[Vaedan]

Sylvanas doesn't like anything, she's a monster.
all dark rangers that also include humans and night elves so far are part of the forsaken society and live their own undead country

I consider myself the pope of Rome! I guess that's enough for me to live in the Vatican right?

What kind of argument is that? Can you please make at least constructive points?

What matters is that Velonara explains she still considers herself an ELF, because if you didn't notice, she used to be elf and now is undead elf. It have nothing to do with her class (which makes your pope reference ridiculous), it means she did not gave up on her life prior undeath and it is still important for her. It is natural she is working with Forsaken, because they went through the same trauma of death -> raising from dead -> scourge slavery -> liberation by Sylvanas and then setting up new nation in Lordaeron, but it is not her homeland. She was not born there. She did not died here. She was raised in Quel'thalas, her friends and family were there, she died for Quel'thalas. She have every right to call it her home and truth be told, her people shoud treat her as a war hero, especially when she still holds vallues important for sin'dorei.

My question is, when there is a person which endures through undeath and maintain values dear for its race, why should it be forced to abandon it? You know, Horde is that faction which is portrayed more tolerant of all kind of misfits as long as they mean no harm. This untolerant approach towards undead is more typical for Alliance...

[Rhlor]

What kind of argument is that? Can you please make at least constructive points?

What matters is that Velonara explains she still considers herself an ELF, because if you didn't notice, she used to be elf and now is undead elf. It have nothing to do with her class (which makes your pope reference ridiculous), it means she did not gave up on her life prior undeath and it is still important for her. It is natural she is working with Forsaken, because they went through the same trauma of death -> raising from dead -> scourge slavery -> liberation by Sylvanas and then setting up new nation in Lordaeron, but it is not her homeland. She was not born there. She did not died here. She was raised in Quel'thalas, her friends and family were there, she died for Quel'thalas. She have every right to call it her home and truth be told, her people shoud treat her as a war hero, especially when she still holds vallues important for sin'dorei.

My question is, when there is a person which endures through undeath and maintain values dear for its race, why should it be forced to abandon it? You know, Horde is that faction which is portrayed more tolerant of all kind of misfits as long as they mean no harm. This untolerant approach towards undead is more typical for Alliance...

I could self-identify with an astronaut but that wouldn't allow me to get on a spacex rocket and travel to the space station. she may identify as a maghar orc but whether they accept her as such is another matter.
there is a human who identifies as a quelthalas elf i doubt that any quelthalas elf would recognize him as one of them.

One thing is the horde another thing is the sovereign states that are part of the horde, quelthalas is a sovereign state and therefore can decide who can and who can not be part of their society, she in particular is an undead who was fiercely loyal to Sylvanas. if now she thinks Sylvanas was wrong, good for her but her nation state is forsaken

[Vaedan]

I could self-identify with an astronaut but that wouldn't allow me to get on a spacex rocket and travel to the space station. she may identify as a maghar orc but whether they accept her as such is another matter.
there is a human who identifies as a quelthalas elf i doubt that any quelthalas elf would recognize him as one of them.

One thing is the horde another thing is the sovereign states that are part of the horde, quelthalas is a sovereign state and therefore can decide who can and who can not be part of their society, she in particular is an undead who was fiercely loyal to Sylvanas. if now she thinks Sylvanas was wrong, good for her but her nation state is forsaken

Again, your examples are completely off. She is biologicaly elf. An elf which died but was raised, but it is still elf. She was born as elf, lived most of her life as one and clearly wish to identify as an elf even though she is ALSO undead.

She did not made up being elf, it was not some kind of fantasy for her. It is real for her. Do you understand it? She was not an human who pretended be elf. All your examples are based on that you pretend something you are not. This is not the case with either Dark Rangers or San'layn. They are elves. I get that in your view, blood elves must be holy beings and you intentionaly denies everything which pulls blood elves from that vision, but you must face it that this is also part of sin'dorei history and while minor, it is also theme they have and the game itself throw at us from time to time. It is quite natural for people to request being able to live this undead elf fantasy on their own.

[Rhlor]

Again, your examples are completely off. She is biologicaly elf. An elf which died but was raised, but it is still elf. She was born as elf, lived most of her life as one and clearly wish to identify as an elf even though she is ALSO undead.

She did not made up being elf, it was not some kind of fantasy for her. It is real for her. Do you understand it? She was not an human who pretended be elf. All your examples are based on that you pretend something you are not. This is not the case with either Dark Rangers or San'layn. They are elves. I get that in your view, blood elves must be holy beings and you intentionaly denies everything which pulls blood elves from that vision, but you must face it that this is also part of sin'dorei history and while minor, it is also theme they have and the game itself throw at us from time to time. It is quite natural for people to request being able to live this undead elf fantasy on their own.

they are undeads , undead is his own race with his own playable faction. give forsaken more customizations

i think look nice


There is something called the development of history and the history of quelthalas leads us to be light elves, the forsaken have their own history they can have elf customization

[Vaedan]

they are undeads , undead is his own race with his own playable faction. give forsaken more customizations

i think look nice


There is something called the development of history and the history of quelthalas leads us to be light elves, the forsaken have their own history they can have elf customization

It is not bad and some players would like it, but I believe it is not really what san'layn fans expect. Just remember when void elves were implemented, they were meant to be Alliance's thalassian compromise. Some people like them, some grow fond of them in time, but high elf request lived on and Blizz realized that. I think this would cause exactly the same with San'layn fans.

Blood elves will be Light elves of Warcraft for sure, but it does have to mean there can't be other themes. Night elves are not only nature elves. Dwarves are not only mountaineers. Every race have more layers which gives it more complexity.

[Maljinwo]

For someone who spends their forum time screaming about elves, you really failed to get that Blood Elves never interacted with the San'layn.
Not even the Horde campaign nor the adventurer interacted with the San'layn

[Rhlor]

It is not bad and some players would like it, but I believe it is not really what san'layn fans expect. Just remember when void elves were implemented, they were meant to be Alliance's thalassian compromise. Some people like them, some grow fond of them in time, but high elf request lived on and Blizz realized that. I think this would cause exactly the same with San'layn fans.

Blood elves will be Light elves of Warcraft for sure, but it does have to mean there can't be other themes. Night elves are not only nature elves. Dwarves are not only mountaineers. Every race have more layers which gives it more complexity.

we have arcane theme, ranger theme, I want to have a druid theme because botanists exist!

And what do those who ask for playable sanlayn want? the night elf model of the blood prince and blood queen? or the DK model that is already playable?

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For someone who spends their forum time screaming about elves, you really failed to get that Blood Elves never interacted with the San'layn.
Not even the Horde campaign nor the adventurer interacted with the San'layn

He knows it, he is one of the people who best knows the lore of the elves. but he doesn't care about a fake news thread, all he wanted was to say in rhetorical form that the alliance is great and the horde trash

[Guidance]

Can someone explain this logic pls - San'layn characters are evil as fuck, and the stuff they do is terrible, but yet it seems the Belves aren't that bothered by it, but have a major issue with void elves - kicking them out "dangerous magic " (ahem, remember fel in TFT-TBC? remember Illidari??), but yet seem offended they re-joined the alliance and actually value it a lot more.

Not to mention they are far more in line with the values the blood elves seem to eschew, yet they'd rather go with the San'layn...

Someone explain to me how? ! Why?!

from what has been said, the void represents a danger to the sunwel, a danger so great that even the Sin'dorei who are known to abuse the magical power, deny such power and have forbidden research

some sin'dorei like Magister Umbric, continued to research the void, and only realized the danger of actions when they began to hear whispers, Alleria appears to help them to maintain sanity and with this emerged the void elf

The strange thing is that they didn't have as many void elfs to create as much impact as the BFA war.

If you stop to think is not something too exaggerated, the elves are known to change their appearance according to the kind of magic they use

[Vaedan]

we have arcane theme, ranger theme, I want to have a druid theme because botanists exist!

And what do those who ask for playable sanlayn want? the night elf model of the blood prince and blood queen? or the DK model that is already playable?

DK being playable does not work if you want to be anything other than a melee with big sword. As I said before, san'layn offers other options like mage, lock, priest, rogue, hunter... Night elf model have only WotLK era princes, in BfA, they were exclusively blood elves. Also all darkfallen NPCs in Icecrown are elves.
What these san'layn fans are after is idea of elegant, vampyric undead elves.

[Rhlor]

DK being playable does not work if you want to be anything other than a melee with big sword. As I said before, san'layn offers other options like mage, lock, priest, rogue, hunter... Night elf model have only WotLK era princes, in BfA, they were exclusively blood elves. Also all darkfallen NPCs in Icecrown are elves.
What these san'layn fans are after is idea of elegant, vampyric undead elves.

Venthyr is elegant vampire, Ventyr playable!

[Beloren]

It is not bad and some players would like it, but I believe it is not really what san'layn fans expect. Just remember when void elves were implemented, they were meant to be Alliance's thalassian compromise. Some people like them, some grow fond of them in time, but high elf request lived on and Blizz realized that. I think this would cause exactly the same with San'layn fans.

Blood elves will be Light elves of Warcraft for sure, but it does have to mean there can't be other themes. Night elves are not only nature elves. Dwarves are not only mountaineers. Every race have more layers which gives it more complexity.

I agree with that, it took me a while to accept that and even appreciate it, but now i can't wait for San'layn.

Besides they can offer a different elven perspective. How do the elves deal with being undead as an elf - it offers a chance for something differnet han how the humans reacted as they're on the same faction with nuance and complexity because it's still a horrific thing.

Yet it's balanced by a power upgrade, and Belves love power right. it can also explore the mixed sentiments within the blood elves and allow us to experience the perspective of an undead margnisalised, reviled or revered amongst various walks of society, especially as a vampire..

They could have that whole underground scene/feel, sort of lead from the shadows, manipulate things, from behind, some for good , some for evil.

But a loveable undead blood elf, trying to do right despite his condition and working hard for Quel'thlaas might be something interesting to follow - not all San'layn need to be good minded ofc, tha'ts the beauty too... mixture of characters facing down stereotypes.. let the blood elves show they're more enlightened than humans -and also show the drawbacks of being so open to anything just cos it's powerful.

[Lolites]

tbh, its MUCH weirder that alliance is okay with void elfs than the blood elfs not being okay with them...
and they never realy show any love for sanlyan either...

[Vaedan]

Venthyr is elegant vampire, Ventyr playable!

Venthyr are not Undead blood elves we know since WotLK. We don't even know if they can leave Shadowlands, since they are strongly tied to it. The only denizens who were shown to appear outside of Shadowlands are Kyrian/Mawsworn, but their purpose is to ferry souls between worlds, so they are required to leave Shadowlands.

[Maljinwo]

all he wanted was to say in rhetorical form that the alliance is great and the horde trash

Why would he think that?
It's not like the Horde got an allied race created in 5 minutes with less lore than the vulpera