Blizzard on Loot from Raids, Mythic+ and PvP in Shadowlands, Bonus Rolls Removed

[Kaver]

No, but most guilds will be clearing heroic very quickly, getting access to that gear and then using that gear to push higher keys.

Meanwhile, someone like me will hit 60 and then have to start pushing what keys I can, because I can't always make my guild's set raid day and there is no other source of gear at level cap. After a few weeks, my guildies will be so far ahead that I can't join them for their raids in the future. This will affect a lot of people, not just myself.

Blizzard shouldn't design the game based on every individual person's problems. If you cannot make the raid times then you'll just have to find another guild with different times. Or you'll just have to be patient. You'll still get a decent piece of gear every week just by doing +6-7 keys. You can also do PvP. You have plenty of option. All it takes is a little effort. Before Legion people had absolutely no chance of getting raid equivalent gear from dungeons. But everybody still survived. Know you can get heroic raid gear from doing a +7 key and people still complain just because they don't get the exact same quantities.

[munkeyinorbit]

They will never learn. Losing players every expansion because they trying to make this game around few percent of players is not enough apperently. Well, maybe next expansion ....

Raiders here will be always. YES I NEED MORE ILVL THEN OTHERS. But this will not work for...like...90% of player base.

If you're not a raider then why do you need the gear? Honestly, less rant and more arguments that actually support your veiw.

[Kaver]

Except that you have totally misunderstood me. I am more than willing to work my way to that gear, but now I am being told that the only way to do that is to raid - and since I can't always join my guild for their raids, that I am relegated to inferior gear for the whole expac. Up until now, there has always been an alternate progression path that allowed me to stay close enough to my guildies (read: NOT equal), to the point where my skill as a player could overcome the ilvl difference. When I could raid, I did, and I might even get an item or two, if I was lucky. If not, I knew that I could keep doing what I was doing and stay close enough to them, WITHOUT HAVING TO RUN A SPECIFIC MODE TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL ELSE.

That is the issue - the collective M+ nerfs mean that I cannot stay close enough to my guildies, unless I do literally nothing but M+ whenever I am on. Do you see me complaining that the end of dungeon chest doesn't drop mythic raid quality gear? No, you don't, because I'm a staunch proponent of the hardest content rewarding the best gear. I do have a problem with the alternatives being nerfed into oblivion.

Realistically, I am looking at an expac where my character's journey will be over in only a few weeks of each patch, because I will not be able to join my friends for their raids, because my gear will be so scarce that my skill cannot compensate. Since I know that I will not want to do nothing but M+ for 2 years or so, my gearing journey will end once I'm decked out in my heroic dungeon blues, and I'll spend the rest of the expac watching my guildies round up dozens of mobs in the Maw for AoE grinding, whilst I take 35 seconds to kill a single mob, because "I'm not worthy".

Oh the drama..

You say you're willing to put in the work right... "more than willing.." to quote you exactly. Then what is the problem?

Except that you have totally misunderstood me. I am more than willing to work my way to that gear

You can spam dungeons for 210 gear and you'll get one piece of 226 gear every week. You're not going to be much behind you're guildies if you are willing to put in the work. And you are "more than willing" remember.

[Omedon]

I don't think everybody should love alts. But I also don't think Blizzard should design the game based on people who only want to play one single character and at the same time wants to make meaningful progress on that character for 8 hours every day. Because then it becomes very tedious to have good alts like it was in BFA.

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I'm sorry to say it but this is the modern WoW entitlement right here. If the content is out of reach then the gearing should also be out of reach. That is completely fair. People don't have any right to get the best gear. It's a privilege. If you want the best gear but cannot do the hardest content then you'll just have to accept the gear that you can get or put some effort into the game and become better.

It's funny that you feel that the gearing only begins once you can get the best gear. This just shows how little value gear holds currently. Everybody expects to get the best gear without ever even going near the hardest content.

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I agree with most of what you say here.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm very much interested in how catch-up systems, specifically ilvl catchups, will work in concert with this "let loot be loot" reality. That will determine the true "alt friendliness" factor, something this expansion's presentation very much demands be generous.

Having a second character to run just the path to Valeera's chest to farm for void edge is just not worth it. At the same time, I have 36 characters that can (and often do) run a 2k gold emissary when it drops. There's gotta be a middle ground there, and for BFA it started with prismatic manapearls and the old faithful of timewalking vendors. Shadowlands needs to continue that, but, in my opinion, be a liiiiitle more generous with the sort of situation that visions ended up with.

[baseballfan]

So i dont get it? the Datamined graph showing that the end of week cache would be IL 213 for a +7 mythic dungeon was wrong? or did they forget to say the weekly cache ?? cause if a regular +7 is dropping 213 then it's great. But if it is still the datamined +15 dungeon loot is still less than heroic il then there is going to be a lot of people leaving the game.

[Kaver]

So i dont get it? the Datamined graph showing that the end of week cache would be IL 213 for a +7 mythic dungeon was wrong? or did they forget to say the weekly cache ?? cause if a regular +7 is dropping 213 then it's great. But if it is still the datamined +15 dungeon loot is still less than heroic il then there is going to be a lot of people leaving the game.

Do you seriously think it would be great if +7 dropped heroic gear after each dungeon? That would be ridiculous.

+15 will drop 3 ilvls less than heroic because it is spammable. However it will give 226 gear in the weekly chest and heroic raids will still only give 213 gear in the weekly chest. Plus raids are also going to drop less loot than before.

[Mystikal]

Oh the drama..

You say you're willing to put in the work right... "more than willing.." to quote you exactly. Then what is the problem?



You can spam dungeons for 210 gear and you'll get one piece of 226 gear every week. You're not going to be much behind you're guildies if you are willing to put in the work. And you are "more than willing" remember.

You keep missing the part where M+ drop rates have been absolutely decimated. It is entirely possible that I could do the 10 runs a week and get nothing, except 1 item in the chest at the end of the week. Meanwhile, my guildies get 10 chances at loot from the raid bosses, a guaranteed item at the end of the week, and even more choice if they do only 1 M+ run each week. How much more time should I have to put in? Their raid clear is about 3 hours, a typical M+ dungeon is 30 mins, so I'm already putting in nearly twice as much time for less reward. How much more time should it take? Thrice as much? Four times? Five?

I honestly don't see what the problem would be with keeping the M+ drop rates as they are but reducing the ilvl. It would be nice to have the option to do some M+, get inferior gear more frequently and be able to join my friends for a raid when I can, as well as having the time to, you know, play the rest of the game. As it currently stands, if I want to play the rest of the game, I'm not going to be able to run the 'required' number of M+ to stay relevant.

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If you cannot make the raid times then you'll just have to find another guild with different times.

Sadly, this is impossible for me, because my "WoW days" change every week, due to my job. So, I choose to stay with my friends (since my only option would be to unsub). Yes, I could cap myself off at a +7 key each week, but then I won't have the gear to join my friends for their raids. I am being given the choice of "raid with my guild, but spend every waking moment running M+" or "Set more realistic goals, but never get to raid with my friends again". Why does Blizzard feel I must be given this choice after years of perfectly viable alternatives? I realise I am but one player, but my voice still matters.

[munkeyinorbit]

Removing bonus rolls will literally make things worse. Bonus rolls at least made the RNG feel a little less punishing because you had two chances per boss. Now you're much more likely to get absolutely nothing from a boss all week. This change is absolute trash and hurts EVERYONE.

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Weekly Vault has a chance of having double loot so that doesn't fix anything. Also, most casual players will not see much use from the Vault at all. Also, the removal of wf/tf doesn't improve anything. It doesn't solve the garbage RNG that is present in WoW and now they've basically eliminated one of the bad luck prevention mechanics. Blizzard are really doing everything they can to make Shadowlands a terrible expansion.

It hurts no one. If you even kill one boss you are guaranteed loot. That's more than what it was before. You could roll 5 times and kill all bosses and get no loot. There. It's improved for everyone.

If a casual doesn't kill a raid boss then why do they deserve gear? This is just word salad dressed up as an argument.

[Kaver]

You keep missing the part where M+ drop rates have been absolutely decimated. It is entirely possible that I could do the 10 runs a week and get nothing, except 1 item in the chest at the end of the week. Meanwhile, my guildies get 10 chances at loot from the raid bosses, a guaranteed item at the end of the week, and even more choice if they do only 1 M+ run each week. How much more time should I have to put in? Their raid clear is about 3 hours, a typical M+ dungeon is 30 mins, so I'm already putting in nearly twice as much time for less reward. How much more time should it take? Thrice as much? Four times? Five?

I honestly don't see what the problem would be with keeping the M+ drop rates as they are but reducing the ilvl. It would be nice to have the option to do some M+, get inferior gear more frequently and be able to join my friends for a raid when I can, as well as having the time to, you know, play the rest of the game. As it currently stands, if I want to play the rest of the game, I'm not going to be able to run the 'required' number of M+ to stay relevant.

No no no. This is absolute bullshit.

M+ will drop less loot compared but so will raids. Loot will be more scarce in Shadowlands in general. So when you're implying that your guildies will potentially be able to get 10 pieces of loot each week then it is complete bullshit.

Statistically you will get 1 piece of loot every five dungeons. It's not a surprise that you jump straight to an extreme scenario where you don't get one piece of loot in 10 dungeons but guess what it could also go the other way around and you'll maybe get 4-5 pieces of loot in 10 dungeons. No one will take you seriously if your complaints aren't based on statistics.

You're also assuming that your guild will be able to clear 10 new heroic raid bosses in 3 hours.. when? In the first week? If they can do that then you should definitely also be able to run some +15s. And if you run 10 +15 keys in one week (which isn't much when you don't raid) then you will statistically get 2 pieces of 210 loot and one piece of 226 loot in one week. Do you think each of your guildies will get more than that by clearing the heroic raid?

This is so much drama and people are just crying because Blizzard have supplied them with welfare gear throughout Legion and BFA. It's a good thing they are going to slow down on the loot and people will just have to put in some actual effort now.

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Sadly, this is impossible for me, because my "WoW days" change every week, due to my job. Yes, I could cap myself off at a +7 key each week, but then I won't have the gear to join my friends for their raids. I am being given the choice of "raid with my guild, but spend every waking moment running M+" or "Set more realistic goals, but never get to raid with my friends again". Why does Blizzard feel I must be given this choice after years of perfectly viable alternatives? I realise I am but one player, but my voice still matters.

No you are not being given that choice. Come on. Stop the whining.

Even if you do just +7 dungeons you will still get 1 piece of 204 gear every 5 dungeon. That is absolutely not being far behind people doing heroic. You make it sound like raiders will be showered in loot which is absolutely not true at all. Loot is going to be scarce in shadowlands in general.

[Omedon]

Sadly, this is impossible for me, because my "WoW days" change every week, due to my job.

So, I relate to this very hard, and I've been happier than a pig in mud, gameplay wise, with WoW since legion, because there are countless avenues to "do things and progress" at all hours that don't involve manually assembled groups with total strangers. If you're willing to move your recreational goal posts with the evolution of your life, WoW can still be fun!

But they're not wrong to keep the extremely optional upper echelons of the game at "play it with actual friends."

[TrollHunter3000]

so i need to play on 2,4k+ to get the same gear as noobrain PvElers get in a m+15... cool. Seems fair

Not

If it's so much easier to do mythic 15s then go do it.

If anything, I think it's less fair that a good pvper can get gear from being 2.4k rating as well as go do 15s where as a shitty pvp player doesn't have the option to get gear from arena.

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Only took me like 10 Skitra kills with 9 bonus rolls before I finally got the mythic bow. Gonna miss the rolls.

I have 17 mythic bows

[Mystikal]

But they're not wrong to keep the extremely optional upper echelons of the game at "play it with actual friends."

This is what I've repeatedly being saying that I want to do, but am now being told that I can't. I would never allow myself to be carried by my friends, but keeping up a decent enough gear level to join them will not be possible if these changes stay as is.

There is honestly some wiggle room in these changes that would allow me to carry on playing as I have done for the last several years. I also want to see my character become more powerful over time and totally agree that that should be slower if I can't raid, but these changes will also make that into a never-ending treadmill because of the scarcity of gear outside of raiding.

[Darkguyver2020]

But why do you think you deserve gear if you dont actually do the content? Why should you be getting gear that you have no business with? High ilvl gear is for good players. Bad players deserve nothing. You are lucky you are getting any options at all and all you have to do is kill one raid boss to get it.

And it's this kind of elitist behavior which is the reason why I don't raid anymore. Fuck you.

[Kaver]

This is what I've repeatedly being saying that I want to do, but am now being told that I can't. I would never allow myself to be carried by my friends, but keeping up a decent enough gear level to join them will not be possible if these changes stay as is.

There is honestly some wiggle room in these changes that would allow me to carry on playing as I have done for the last several years. I also want to see my character become more powerful over time and totally agree that that should be slower if I can't raid, but these changes will also make that into a never-ending treadmill because of the scarcity of gear outside of raiding.

I think you completely missed the point of the scarcity of gear in SL. It will also impact raiding! If you think that raiders will get 3 pieces of loot each raid then you're wrong. Blizzard have said that the Weekly Chest will be the main source of good loot for all players. You're crying for nothing and you will see that once shadowlands launches. Your raiding friends are not going to get far ahead if you just play the game as much as them. Stop saying that you're being told that you cant play with your friends. It's just pathetic.

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And it's this kind of elitist behavior which is the reason why I don't raid anymore. Fuck you.

I think people are fine with you not raiding anymore with that toxic behavior. Your post have fittingly been reported for offensive language. Have a nice day.

[Mystikal]

No no no. This is absolute bullshit.

M+ will drop less loot compared but so will raids. Loot will be more scarce in Shadowlands in general. So when you're implying that your guildies will potentially be able to get 10 pieces of loot each week then it is complete bullshit.

Statistically you will get 1 piece of loot every five dungeons. It's not a surprise that you jump straight to an extreme scenario where you don't get one piece of loot in 10 dungeons but guess what it could also go the other way around and you'll maybe get 4-5 pieces of loot in 10 dungeons. No one will take you seriously if your complaints aren't based on statistics.

You're also assuming that your guild will be able to clear 10 new heroic raid bosses in 3 hours.. when? In the first week? If they can do that then you should definitely also be able to run some +15s. And if you run 10 +15 keys in one week (which isn't much when you don't raid) then you will statistically get 2 pieces of 210 loot and one piece of 226 loot in one week. Do you think each of your guildies will get more than that by clearing the heroic raid?

This is so much drama and people are just crying because Blizzard have supplied them with welfare gear throughout Legion and BFA. It's a good thing they are going to slow down on the loot and people will just have to put in some actual effort now.

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No you are not being given that choice. Come on. Stop the whining.

Even if you do just +7 dungeons you will still get 1 piece of 204 gear every 5 dungeon. That is absolutely not being far behind people doing heroic. You make it sound like raiders will be showered in loot which is absolutely not true at all. Loot is going to be scarce in shadowlands in general.

That is not guaranteed. Yes, statistically over a long, long, period it will average out to that, but it's just as likely that you could do 4 M+ each week for several weeks, and still come out with nothing. Could the same happen in the raids? Absolutely, although I cannot recall the last time I cleared a raid with my guildies and didn't get at least 1 item out of it. There's also the factor to consider that dungeons generally have the same items but with different stats in each loot pool, whereas raids generally spread out all slots over the entirety of the bosses in the raid. With reduced loot drops in M+, you're actually entering a scenario where your rare drops could be duplicates, which will then feel even worse.

Lastly, I would say that we don't actually know what the drop rates for the raids are - but we DO know what they are for M+. Since Blizzard wants raiding to be indisputedly the best source of gear, they might keep them at an increased drop rate.

Also, you are incorrect re drops in a +7 - it is actually ilvl 200, not 204. Keep in mind that stats and ilvl are both being squished, so a 13 ilvl difference will have a pretty drastic impact.

[Eapoe]

If it's so much easier to do mythic 15s then go do it.

If anything, I think it's less fair that a good pvper can get gear from being 2.4k rating as well as go do 15s where as a shitty pvp player doesn't have the option to get gear from arena.

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I have 17 mythic bows

Gotta love that RNG.

[Mystikal]

I think you completely missed the point of the scarcity of gear in SL. It will also impact raiding!

We don't know that! Blizzard have not said anywhere that raiding drops will be more scarce, just that M+ will be. Given that they want to 'encourage' as many people into raiding as possible, they might keep raid drops at an increased rate.

[Kaver]

That is not guaranteed. Yes, statistically over a long, long, period it will average out to that, but it's just as likely that you could do 4 M+ each week for several weeks, and still come out with nothing. Could the same happen in the raids? Absolutely, although I cannot recall the last time I cleared a raid with my guildies and didn't get at least 1 item out of it. There's also the factor to consider that dungeons generally have the same items but with different stats in each loot pool, whereas raids generally spread out all slots over the entirety of the bosses in the raid. With reduced loot drops in M+, you're actually entering a scenario where your rare drops could be duplicates, which will then feel even worse.

Lastly, I would say that we don't actually know what the drop rates for the raids are - but we DO know what they are for M+. Since Blizzard wants raiding to be indisputedly the best source of gear, they might keep them at an increased drop rate.

The drop rates in raids are going to be low. Blizzard have said that. This most likelys mean you're not going to get more than 1-2 pieces of loot per clear. I think it is complete disingenuous of you to imply that people will be more unlucky in M+ than in raids. You have to based it on the statistics annd that say you will get a piece of loot every five dungeons which is completely fine since loot will be scarce in SL in general. Sometimes you will get more and sometimes you will get less. But you're only basing your arguments on the scenario where you get less which is absolutely disingenuous.

No matter what, you are not going to be much behind your raiding friends if you only do M+. You can easily do 10-15 dungeons per week if you don't raid and that will statistically give you 2-3 pieces of decent gear per week + a piece of really good gear. Your raiding guildies are not going to get much more than that because loot will be scarce in general... it's not only M+. Maybe they'll even get less. I think your concerns are completely misplaced and this is nothing but unnecessary drama.

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We don't know that! Blizzard have not said anywhere that raiding drops will be more scarce, just that M+ will be. Given that they want to 'encourage' as many people into raiding as possible, they might keep raid drops at an increased rate.

Yes they have said that! Stop with the drama. They said loot will be more scarce in Shadowlands in general so that includes raiding. They also just removed bonus roll with the weekly chest being impacted by raiding as an argument. LOOT WILL ALSO BE MORE SCARCE IN RAIDING! You're creating a fuzz about nothing.

As has been observed in the Beta, loot quantities overall are reduced in Shadowlands. Following the proclamation “let loot be loot”, we’re entering into a world without Warforging and Titanforging, where getting an item from relevant content should feel rewarding on its own more often, without needing to hope for random upgrades.

Look at this Bluepost. They are talking about the Shadowlands in general. "LOOT QUANTITIES OVERALL ARE REDUCED IN SHADOWLANDS". This applies to all content.

[Mystikal]

The drop rates in raids are going to be low. Blizzard have said that. This most likelys mean you're not going to get more than 1-2 pieces of loot per clear. I think it is complete disingenuous of you to imply that people will be more unlucky in M+ than in raids. You have to based it on the statistics annd that say you will get a piece of loot every five dungeons which is completely fine since loot will be scarce in SL in general. Sometimes you will get more and sometimes you will get less. But you're only basing your arguments on the scenario where you get less which is absolutely disingenuous.

No matter what, you are not going to be much behind your raiding friends if you only do M+. You can easily do 10-15 dungeons per week if you don't raid and that will statistically give you 2-3 pieces of decent gear per week + a piece of really good gear. Your raiding guildies are not going to get much more than that because loot will be scarce in general... it's not only M+. Maybe they'll even get less. I think your concerns are completely misplaced and this is nothing but unnecessary drama.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that you are right (although I am the sort of person who wants proof, and there is only proof of the reduced drop rates in Mythic+ at this time, and nothing from Blizzard to say raids will also be affected). At the moment, I can do between 3-6 M+ each week for a moderate time investment, stay more or less relevant, and still have time to play the other aspects of the game. I am now having to effectively triple my time played solely in M+, which WILL be harder in the early expac, but let's assume the clear time stays the same. I'm now faced with another, equally obnoxious choice - do I devote all of my play time to M+ in order to stay near enough to my friends, or do I do the same as now, knowing that realistically I will only get an item at the end of the week?

The amount of time I have to play each week isn't going to change but I am now going to have to devote a significantly higher proportion of that time to M+. Yes, I can run fewer dungeons but that is commensurate with less gear, and that then widens the gap between myself and my guild.

Now, I am sure at this point you are going to talk about my willingness to run those dungeons, but is it really a fair trade off that my time should be solely M+, whereas my guildies can do a few hours a week and come out with items of superior quality? I will want to be able to raise my renown, grind the Anima that we will all require and run Torghast for the required Legendary materials, but having to run triple time on M+ is going to make that extremely infeasible.

[Kaver]

For the sake of argument, let's assume that you are right (although I am the sort of person who wants proof, and there is only proof of the reduced drop rates in Mythic+ at this time, and nothing from Blizzard to say raids will also be affected). At the moment, I can do between 3-6 M+ each week for a moderate time investment, stay more or less relevant, and still have time to play the other aspects of the game. I am now having to effectively triple my time played solely in M+, which WILL be harder in the early expac, but let's assume the clear time stays the same. I'm now faced with another, equally obnoxious choice - do I devote all of my play time to M+ in order to stay near enough to my friends, or do I do the same as now, knowing that realistically I will only get an item at the end of the week?

The amount of time I have to play each week isn't going to change but I am now going to have to devote a significantly higher proportion of that time to M+. Yes, I can run fewer dungeons but that is commensurate with less gear, and that then widens the gap between myself and my guild.

Now, I am sure at this point you are going to talk about my willingness to run those dungeons, but is it really a fair trade off that my time should be solely M+, whereas my guildies can do a few hours a week and come out with items of superior quality? I will want to be able to raise my renown, grind the Anima that we will all require and run Torghast for the required Legendary materials, but having to run triple time on M+ is going to make that extremely infeasible.

As has been observed in the Beta, loot quantities overall are reduced in Shadowlands. Following the proclamation “let loot be loot”, we’re entering into a world without Warforging and Titanforging, where getting an item from relevant content should feel rewarding on its own more often, without needing to hope for random upgrades.

Here is your proof. Look at this Bluepost. They are talking about the Shadowlands in general. "LOOT QUANTITIES OVERALL ARE REDUCED IN SHADOWLANDS". This applies to all content.

Your guildies are only going to get faster gear if they spend more overall time playing the game than you and that is fair. +15 will be harder in the early expac but so will heroic bosses. Again you're assuming that people who find +15 keys hard will be able to faceroll the heroic raid in 3 hours in the first weeks?

And again, you are being way too dramatic. Even if you just do +10 keys you will still get 204 gear at the end of dungeons (1 piece every five dungeons) and 220 gear from the weekly chest. So when you're saying that you're going to be FAR behind your guildies doing heroic raiding then it is just completely disingenuous. And if your guildies are using more time overall playing the game then it is of course completely fair that they'll get more gear.

Your main argument is that you'll have to invest much more time than your guildies to get the same gear. But that is not true. That is just you creating drama. Loot is going to be scarce in SL in general and that's it. You can see that in the Bluepost and Ion has also said it in his interviews with Slooth etc. No one is going to get loot really fast unless they play the game A LOT.