9.0 General Discussion

[TheFirstOnes]

Keep in mind that:
N’zoth beat us. We were completely corrupted and only saved by Magni and Mother getting the Engine up in time.
Archimonde was originally defeated by Wisps, not us. The 2nd time we faced him we had help from Khadgar, Yrel, and Grommash.
KJ...see above with the help.
Argus’ fight we, again, had help. This time from the Titans themselves.
Cho’gal’s encounter was a party of individuals. Not a solitary endeavor like with Me’dan.
Not trying to lessen your points, but I do want to point out some inconsistencies in that we are somehow lone saviors.

As to your next points:
A). We’ve never really been amped up to absurd power levels. We, most of the time, always have assistance from powerful lore figures or thru an item that houses incredible power at the time.
B). Yeah, we are the chosen ones, but only in the sense we have faced these dangers and come out alive. Regardless of the help we’ve had, we still persevere and are able to do things common NPCs can’t.
C). Yes, I agree here. It can be inconsistent. Most of the time though, if you really pay attention, it has been pretty consistent. We are able to overcome quite a bit on our own; however, most fights that required assistance in the past (KJ for instance) require help in the latest version as well. So, either we become powerful just like the enemies we face, or we haven’t really gained much power in the grand scheme in comparison to what we’ve faced before.

Lemme address these, cause I do agree with these, but I disagree with others.

1. Well, N'Zoth didn't really "beat" us. He was about to corrupt us, but Magni's "hero" speech and our Titanic willpower kinda fucked his corruption over.

2. Well, Archimonde didn't really lose to the Wisps. He really lost to the ritual that involved the Tree's magics being used against the Defiler, cause, if you forgot, the Aspects blessed the World Tree. Also, Khadgar, Yrel, and Grom did aid us, yes. However, we mostly did the heavy hitting, thanks to our Legendary Rings. With Kil'Jaeden: Illidan only aided us VIA giving us sight against Kil'jaeden's eternal darkness ability. Outside of that, Velen, Illidan, and Khadgar were on the sidelines, facing all the adds while we fought the Deceiver alone.

3. Argus, we did have help, yes. However, outside of the Aggramar Avatar thing Tanks got, and outside of the Titanforging amps, the Titans merely aided us VIA using their magics to cleanse the battlefield, or to resurrect us. Only 2 of them gave actual power boosts, and one of them happens when Argus gets canonically amp'd up by Sargeras' power. Also note that Sargeras himself was attacking us from a distance during the battle, so, even with the Titan Spirits and their aid, it's crazy how we managed to live all that.

4. Med'an still got empowered by Jaina, Aegwynn, as well as other Mages in order to fight Cho'gall. Meanwhile, us Champions, while fighting as a group of individuals, weren't empowered by anything really during our battle against Cho'gall. So, it's not like Med'an was all on his own there either.

I know we're not "lone survivors". I'm just saying that us in general are very powerful guys, with aid or otherwise.

5. While that is true, in the more recent Expansions however, we have been aiding the more powerful lore figures, rather than the other way around.

6. Well, that's not all around true tbh. Especially considering we're basically Avatar's of Azeroth's Titan herself, capable of activating ancient relics of the First Ones, etc etc.

7. I GUESS it's consistent, but when you jump from struggling against N'Zoth with the HoA, to fighting Titan-Titan++ Level threats the expansion after, without the HoA even, then you're getting kinda inconsistent.

Hell, the LK used to be a foe weaker than the Legion. Now, he's stated to be an Agent of the Maw, and that he had the potential to destroy all the Shadowlands. Hell, Chronicle implied that the LK was preparing to take on the Legion.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Join the Spooky Squad

We got skulls. And bones.

Not necessarily but it does mean it has a higher possibility of being Drust themed.


Maybe even troll themed depending on what happens.

I would, but Night Fae has Bwonsamdi and his Loa pals

What’s the troll raid pattern?

Feeling to lazy to google
It.

Uhh.... Once every X.1/2 patch I think?

[TheFirstOnes]

There is one twist that might make the jailing of the Jailer by the others an actual mistake. If those dreadlords work for Denathrius and not Zovaal, they may have convinced the other Eternals that they were trying to upset the cosmic balance for Zovaal instead of Denathrius, which would mean Denathrius framed Zovaal (and of course imprisoned him together with the rest of the Eternals). Maybe he later even went to Zovaal and told him what a huuuuge mistake it had been and that he was sorry, sent his dreadlords to 'help' him get revenge, so Denathrius could work with the Jailer and gain access to the Maw's powers that way.
This is maybe a bit of a stretch, but it would be kind of fun. But really it's probably too convoluted a story to pull off in an mmo.

That wouldn't really explain why Denathrius is so hellbent on wanting to work with Zovaal though, let alone why Denathrius seems to treat Zovaal as a higher up.

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Im going to guess Zovaal did something real bad to make the others turn against him. I don't think Denathrius was originally against him but recently he is with him. My guess anyways, still very interesting to see.

He probably got sent to the Maw because the Eternal Ones caught on to his "cosmic balance fuck up" plan. The only issue being that none of them suspected Denathrius.

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I think u are confusing "had their power for a few moments " and "permanently"

Well, not really, considering we're kinda always going to have Azeroth's power. Ya know? The Titan stated to be so strong, than she could take on the Void Lords alone once born?

[formerShandalay]

Im going to guess Zovaal did something real bad to make the others turn against him. I don't think Denathrius was originally against him but recently he is with him. My guess anyways, still very interesting to see.

Oh yea, I think so too. Maybe ... it's the thing he is doing to this day, like manipulating the whole world(s) into thinking someone else but him is to blame for all their woes and making them join him in his quest to rule or destroy the cosmos. And really I think the dreadlords are working for Zovaal and Denathrius was simply a proto-dreadlord at the beginning, which is why they look like him.
But really, I would like to see two bad guys going at it with one of them framing the other and pulling the strings from the background, which is why I like that theory. And also, it would make Zovaal's "They betrayed me!" at least a half-truth, because from his perspective it would actually look like that.

That wouldn't really explain why Denathrius is so hellbent on wanting to work with Zovaal though, let alone why Denathrius seems to treat Zovaal as a higher up.

Because he wants the power the Maw grants, but without being bound to it.
He frames Zovaal, imprisons him with the others, then later tells Zovaal the others wanted him gone and said he was evil, so he went along with their plan, but now he sees that they just wanted power and it was all so unjust.... etc.... and that he can't actually free him, because it would take more power than he alone has, but given enough time, they could get there, if Zovaal just now and again grants him some of that Maw power. In the mean time he gives him his dreadlords to command. (So if anything goes wrong, or the right time comes he can always point to Zovaal and simply tell everyone they worked for him.)


Edit 2: or he just needs a really big distraction until his plan with infiltrating really all of the cosmic realms comes together and Zovaal was the most convenient and efficient person for that.

[Gangreflamme]

I really hope we get a CGI Jailer cinematic tomorrow with the Pre-patch release date announcement....... What are the odds ?

[TheFirstOnes]

I mean...

He doesn't really want the Maw's power, really. Especially considering he's not almost no Maw themed abilities whatsoever when we fight him.

[formerShandalay]

I mean...

He doesn't really want the Maw's power, really. Especially considering he's not almost no Maw themed abilities whatsoever when we fight him.

Well if (and yea, you're right of course, it's improbable that my theory there is really true, so that's a big if ) he is actually such a schemer then he wouldn't show his powers of course, not openly until his plans come to actual fruition (read: he rules the cosmos)..... or he loses a Mak'gora and then loses his shit, yelling them out for everyone to hear... ^^

[therumblings]

I really hope we get a CGI Jailer cinematic tomorrow with the Pre-patch release date announcement....... What are the odds ?

Pretty likely honestly, with the history of Old Soldier's release, plus the Release Candidate. I would keep expectations low, but it definitely has a lot of credence.

[razorpax]

It's definitely a lot better for fire than frost or arcane, but honestly just changing it to proc off auto attacks already makes it better.

if only the freaking leather gear in venthyr was good then id have most of my toons figured out

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Yeeeeeah, the timelines don't really line up.
But, then again, this is Blizzard writing we're talking about. So who really knows?

well we know the machine was still working up until we faced at least cenarius

the only thing that happened close after was the death of xavius in the rift of aln and ysera being shown to plant the seed of the void

fast forward a bit and we get karazhan and ToV where helya who is a big servant of death was "killed" and we can figure maybe her pact with sylvanas was still in play even though we dont know what it was HOWEVER the thing we do know is that Odyn and his kind were released from their seal. We also know that Helya began small invasions throughout stormheim.

So we can figure the big even took place around helya and whatever it was it was needed for Zoval to succeed in his plan.

Also the winter queen straight up lied to us about ysera showing that she cant be trusted for shit which was already obvious based on her character

[TigTone]

if only the freaking leather gear in venthyr was good then id have most of my toons figured out

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well we know the machine was still working up until we faced at least cenarius

the only thing that happened close after was the death of xavius in the rift of aln and ysera being shown to plant the seed of the void

fast forward a bit and we get karazhan and ToV where helya who is a big servant of death was "killed" and we can figure maybe her pact with sylvanas was still in play even though we dont know what it was HOWEVER the thing we do know is that Odyn and his kind were released from their seal. We also know that Helya began small invasions throughout stormheim.

So we can figure the big even took place around helya and whatever it was it was needed for Zoval to succeed in his plan.

Also the winter queen straight up lied to us about ysera showing that she cant be trusted for shit which was already obvious based on her character

All the eternal ones are Sketchy as hell, only one that seems a little trust worthy is Primus.

[Cosmic Janitor]

if only the freaking leather gear in venthyr was good then id have most of my toons figured out

Aestehtically? I think the leather gear still beats the cloth stuff by a mile and then some for venthyr. It also looks better than necrolord, which is a complete dud and probably the worst of all.

For my alts I really don't want to be a bug-fairy DK, but I can see how the venthyr one for warrior will easily be the most fun ability for a spec that only gets played for some light world content anyway, while slappy-hands for DK is kinda meh for a permanent ability. For leather I'd really like the kyrian set with monk, but the ability is kinda ... urgh, night fae ability looks but also isn't that good.

[formerShandalay]

if only the freaking leather gear in venthyr was good then id have most of my toons figured out

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well we know the machine was still working up until we faced at least cenarius

the only thing that happened close after was the death of xavius in the rift of aln and ysera being shown to plant the seed of the void

fast forward a bit and we get karazhan and ToV where helya who is a big servant of death was "killed" and we can figure maybe her pact with sylvanas was still in play even though we dont know what it was HOWEVER the thing we do know is that Odyn and his kind were released from their seal. We also know that Helya began small invasions throughout stormheim.

So we can figure the big even took place around helya and whatever it was it was needed for Zoval to succeed in his plan.

Also the winter queen straight up lied to us about ysera showing that she cant be trusted for shit which was already obvious based on her character

What did she say about Ysera that was a lie?

[Ersula]

I would, but Night Fae has Bwonsamdi and his Loa pals

Now, the Other Side is physically touching Ardenwaeld, but unless I'm mistaken, since we know the people who worship Bwonsamdi can circumvent the maw, The Other Side is considered a distinct & separate afterlife from Ardenwaeld, as it has its own leader, Mueh'zala. But the Loa is an Ardenwaeld thing. So, though not directly explained to the player, we infer that The Winter Queen gave Bwonsamdi the powers of a Loa specifically to bypass his "Boss" Mueh'zala, because she could tell Mueh'zala was evil.

Is this a correct extrapolation of Ardenwaeld's lore?

[TheFirstOnes]

Ok, been testing Torghast a bit...

It would appear as though the Twisting Corridors are up forever, with the "2 wings up a week" thing only applying to every other area.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Btw, since the weapon tokens are definitely a thing now, is there a comprehensive list of all covenant themed weapons. Last time I checked I don't think I remember seeing all kyrian and necrolord variants.

[TheFirstOnes]

Who are these hooded figures? And why tf do they look like the Dark Rider looking guys that are on the Dark Portal?

[formerShandalay]

Now, the Other Side is physically touching Ardenwaeld, but unless I'm mistaken, since we know the people who worship Bwonsamdi can circumvent the maw, The Other Side is considered a distinct & separate afterlife from Ardenwaeld, as it has its own leader, Mueh'zala. But the Loa is an Ardenwaeld thing. So, though not directly explained to the player, we infer that The Winter Queen gave Bwonsamdi the powers of a Loa specifically to bypass his "Boss" Mueh'zala, because she could tell Mueh'zala was evil.

Is this a correct extrapolation of Ardenwaeld's lore?

No, because the Nightfae are impartial. Evil Loa get their pod and get reborn into the world too. Which is why Mueh'zala can snatch the pods of Hakkar for example from right under their noses.

[TheFirstOnes]

You also gain more Soul Ash after completing each layer. And completing 1 Layer from 1 wing can unlock the 2nd Layer for not just that wing, but for the other wings as well.

[Toybox]

I. Love. Torghast.

It's pretty damn good. I'm going to be super careful not to overplay it early on as that's a genuine concern, but given I'll probably be doing dungeons & raiding a lot hopefully there won't be much time for it anyway Ideally, I'd like to still be really enjoying it a year from now.

[Ersula]

if only the freaking leather gear in venthyr was good then id have most of my toons figured out

- - - Updated - - -



well we know the machine was still working up until we faced at least cenarius

the only thing that happened close after was the death of xavius in the rift of aln and ysera being shown to plant the seed of the void

fast forward a bit and we get karazhan and ToV where helya who is a big servant of death was "killed" and we can figure maybe her pact with sylvanas was still in play even though we dont know what it was HOWEVER the thing we do know is that Odyn and his kind were released from their seal. We also know that Helya began small invasions throughout stormheim.

So we can figure the big even took place around helya and whatever it was it was needed for Zoval to succeed in his plan.

Also the winter queen straight up lied to us about ysera showing that she cant be trusted for shit which was already obvious based on her character

*)Planting the seed of the void, if planting is what you can call it, is just a narrative device to forshadow she has residual nightmare corruption based on how she died, which we deal with in Ardenwaeld.

*)It's unclear how figures who appear in the dream relate to the shadowlands, but it appears that when they're in the Ardenwaeld pods regenerating, their minds are "dreaming" meaning they can manifest in the dream. So all those ghost-like figures in the dream are in Pods at the same time, but their minds are in the Emerald dream.

*)Genn destroying Helya's beacon is likely to be important, but I'm still not ruling out that the maw was broken long before Legion, as i'm pretty sure the whole Eclipse cinematic is telling us that Elune circumvented the maw for her children directly. Otherwise what was the point of that cinematic?

*)Though yes, as she played a part in creating the maw so the Winter Queen does bear some of the responsibility of the drought that now exists.