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  1. #281
    Until people realize that instead of being 0.7-1% behind others they will be 2-5% because of some insane trinkets that just doesn't drop for them.
    Bonus rolls were a part of that.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Until people realize that instead of being 0.7-1% behind others they will be 2-5% because of some insane trinkets that just doesn't drop for them.
    Bonus rolls were a part of that.
    Out of interest, why do you believe there would there be a larger gap when everyone remains on the same loot system?

    Or am i not understanding your post correctly?

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    well. Shadowlands starting to look like straight dumpster fire now. https://www.wowhead.com/news=318109/...wlands-content
    Sounds like just another attempt to slow down progression.

  4. #284
    Cannot say I mind it one way or the other. Loot will come how loot comes.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Out of interest, why do you believe there would there be a larger gap when everyone remains on the same loot system?

    Or am i not understanding your post correctly?
    Of course there will because of math and statistics. I do not need to "believe" anything, I just know how to calculate probability.

    Without any system that smooths out power curve like TF and with rare loot this is bound to happen and it did happen in the past.
    Right now it was pretty uncommon to NOT have some specific trinket at ~2 months in patch. After changes it will be pretty common.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Of course there will because of math and statistics. I do not need to "believe" anything, I just know how to calculate probability.

    Without any system that smooths out power curve like TF and with rare loot this is bound to happen and it did happen in the past.
    Right now it was pretty uncommon to NOT have some specific trinket at ~2 months in patch. After changes it will be pretty common.
    Explain the math and statistics. Should be easy, since you have calculated it.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Of course there will because of math and statistics. I do not need to "believe" anything, I just know how to calculate probability.

    Without any system that smooths out power curve like TF and with rare loot this is bound to happen and it did happen in the past.
    Right now it was pretty uncommon to NOT have some specific trinket at ~2 months in patch. After changes it will be pretty common.
    You know what they say?
    Show your work. I don't think you will, cause you didn't do any. But. Worth a shot.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Of course there will because of math and statistics. I do not need to "believe" anything, I just know how to calculate probability.

    Without any system that smooths out power curve like TF and with rare loot this is bound to happen and it did happen in the past.
    Right now it was pretty uncommon to NOT have some specific trinket at ~2 months in patch. After changes it will be pretty common.
    How is this accounting for personal loot and the weekly vault? Everyone will have an additional 1-9 chances at those trinkets depending on where they come from. As some of the group gets what they need off a boss's loot table, they can adjust their loot spec to fish for trinkets that others need, and since personal loot only gives loot for the available loot specs, it drastically increases the chances that the sought after trinket will drop. I'm thinking that getting trinkets, in particular, will be far easier than they were in Classic - Cata with these systems, which presumably is the period you're talking about since the thread is regarding the removal of bonus rolls.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Natureseer View Post
    your stats barely scale in shadowlands anymore so who even cares about getting the gear
    We'll see about that. Ilvl causing disproportionate scaling across an xpac was a huge issue to me. Going from like 18k to 100k across BFA was fucking garbage. If ilvl scales damage more linearly, I'd be ecstatic.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2020-09-24 at 04:20 AM.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Lora View Post
    well. Shadowlands starting to look like straight dumpster fire now. https://www.wowhead.com/news=318109/...wlands-content
    this is a good change mr. free loot andy

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hextor View Post
    Yea, that's exactly why it might be a 'dumpster fire'. Not classes being abandoned yet again for multiple borrowed power layers.
    This

    And tokens never fucking gave loot either anyway

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xalvia View Post
    this is a good change mr. free loot andy
    what a unique statement and hot take

    Quote Originally Posted by Uggorthaholy View Post
    Thanks but no thanks, Lora, for making me question everything in existence forever.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    They'll just have two helms with different stats instead though.

    The only thing cutting down on gear drops in a way is the tokens for weapons, but it's just mostly replacing the weapon drop
    Yeah. Also, M+ gear is just becoming a step before heroic raid, and HC is basically puggable over time. So i expect gearing to be "pretty easy" anyway.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by froschhure View Post
    and compared to m+? Maybe it is only your own view. There are people that do not suffer burnout or need your described "drama".
    m+ is only 5 people, it's fairly easy to find 5 likeminded people.
    raiding is 25-30 people, there are always people who want different things, always people rotating in and out of the team, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuciek View Post
    There will be tokens for weapons from raid. But weapons aside, there will be less loot and smaller loot tables in Shadowlands. Removing bonus roll is not punishing anyone with bad luck, it's the opposite. It's punishing those with unfair luck. Also having loot tables smaller (and no duplicates in one chest) means that the rng will be a lot better than with M+ chest in BfA for comparison. It's also worth noting that gearing changes in general in SL. Blizzard wants everyone to gear slower. You won't get your BiS items as fast as you did in BfA, but nobody will, so the playing field is even.


    if loot tables become smaller bonus rolls become better too, the chest will never be able to match it.
    for the chest to be similar to how bonus rolls are right now, loot tables would have to be drastically smaller, at least twice as small, which seems like a stretch. (did some napkin math in one of my earlier posts).

    the speed of gearing doesn't really factor into it, it's about when you get to the point where you are missing 1 or 2 specific items, that is point is where the bonus roll shines and that is when you want some improved odds the most.
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2020-09-24 at 08:20 AM.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    if they were just another chance at gear i wouldn't mind their removal. the fact they were another chance at a specific piece of gear was their real value.
    Fair enough, that's more in line with what I ment, edited. Thanks!

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    The Great Vault gives you 1 item per week but your choices of items are based on what you do during the prior week. But I don't believe we know currently how wide the loot pool is. For instance, does the Great Vault only give you a loot choice from the raid or across all the M+?

    For instance, there are 33 items from the loot pool for Mages in Castle Nathria. 4 of which are Legendary Recipe drops. So a total of 29 items.

    However, across all dungeons, there are 67 items (again removing the 4 which are legendary recipe drops).

    So it is 1 item out of 29 or 96? And if you get additional choices from doing raids/M+/PvP does those extra choices give raid/non-raid gear?




    The problem with guaranteed loot from the Great Vault is that it doesn't help if the loot pool is so wide that it gives you crap.
    My understanding of the weekly is that there are "lanes", so raid can get up to 3 choices in that lane from raid tables, whereas M+ and the loot tables get 3 in their own lane.
    If that's still the case, then the weekly is still overall just as good if not better, mathematically, for Raid alone.
    The problem will be with people who raid, M+, and pvp at a high level each week, because now they lose 2 chests (2 guaranteed, but random) and 2 bonus rolls for 1 guaranteed choice between 9 items.

    In terms of raid, early on, it will be useful, then later in tier, it still offers a higher overall chance at that one elusive item, though the chances are still pretty low (3 chances of 29 items, or ~10% in your example).
    Remember, bonus roll is 20%, and if a loot table offers 3 items and you need just 1, you have ~7% of getting the one you want, which gets worse the bigger the table gets.

    This ofc is assuming the Great Vault doesn't offer duplicate items because if I open my first one and it gives me a choice between three of the same pairs of gloves, that's gonna be lame af and ruin the whole system.
    Given other "issues" with in-game features, I wouldn't put the duplicate thing past them...

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    My understanding of the weekly is that there are "lanes", so raid can get up to 3 choices in that lane from raid tables, whereas M+ and the loot tables get 3 in their own lane.
    If that's still the case, then the weekly is still overall just as good if not better, mathematically, for Raid alone.
    The problem will be with people who raid, M+, and pvp at a high level each week, because now they lose 2 chests (2 guaranteed, but random) and 2 bonus rolls for 1 guaranteed choice between 9 items.

    In terms of raid, early on, it will be useful, then later in tier, it still offers a higher overall chance at that one elusive item, though the chances are still pretty low (3 chances of 29 items, or ~10% in your example).
    Remember, bonus roll is 20%, and if a loot table offers 3 items and you need just 1, you have ~7% of getting the one you want, which gets worse the bigger the table gets.

    This ofc is assuming the Great Vault doesn't offer duplicate items because if I open my first one and it gives me a choice between three of the same pairs of gloves, that's gonna be lame af and ruin the whole system.
    Given other "issues" with in-game features, I wouldn't put the duplicate thing past them...
    It shouldn’t give duplicate items. It did in the beta but that was confirmed to be a bug and very much unintended

  18. #298
    Pray tell, which expansion HASN'T been "a dumpster fire", whilst current, according MMO-C in the past ooooh... forever?

    This is a good change. Unlike a lot of shit that hasn't even been done and won't be done until 10.0+.

  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    It shouldn’t give duplicate items. It did in the beta but that was confirmed to be a bug and very much unintended
    That's great news.

    I like this change overall.
    Let loot be loot, with a sprinkle of player agency.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Pohut View Post
    You know what they say?
    Show your work. I don't think you will, cause you didn't do any. But. Worth a shot.
    Its fairly simple, ~2 items per boss with 9 items per boss per 20 people.
    vs 5 items per boss with 9 items per 20 people.

    Less than half the chance vs current situation. Plus random 1-3 item from vault which is like static chance of ~1-3% each week.

    And since currently it happened for us to some guy never get weapon from Raden despite clearing it every weak, everyone will have at least half the chance of what they had now.
    Bonus rolls actually gave you some chance to target loot. Vault doesn't.

    And it not 1-9 items from chest because these are separate loot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    How is this accounting for personal loot and the weekly vault? Everyone will have an additional 1-9 chances at those trinkets
    This is how you can fool people. You actually believe you have a chance to get trinket you need with 9 chances? No. It will be max 3 chances, out of pool of every item in raids.

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