I hate Sylvanas, but I think she might be right

[CalamityHeart]

You have a cult that robs you of your entire identity and all of your memories. They give you no reasoning to this other than to ascend to serve their purpose. Which is basically being grim reapers.

I think rob might be a little too strong a word. I've watched the shorts, but I haven't really seen much story about Bastion, just a little, so maybe these are just baseless assumptions, but it just seems more from what I've read like souls are encouraged to move on from their pasts and slowly weaned off of their mortal memories. Out of necessity, on one hand, because the existence of such burdens in the Shadowlands seems to have an adverse affect on its denizens (see the Forsworn) and on the environment (see the memory monsters that appear in Bastion and Revendreth). On the other hand, yes. It's because kyrians can best serve their purpose as kyrians if they're completely neutral and impartial to their former mortality. Because if they're not, then you get situations like Devos and Uther.

It's probably worth noting that only noble souls who devoted themselves and their lives to service and order are sent here. No one's soul should arrive in Bastion that doesn't have a sense of purpose that doesn't naturally resonate with the purpose of Bastion itself. It's also worth noting that Bastion is flawed. Its system assumes that it's self-fulfilling, and its "Path" assumes its own infallibility and righteousness. So I'm hoping that by the end, this is addressed more meaningfully, and we actually do see some changes in Bastion. I dunno, billing the entire system of Bastion as a slave cult just seems a touch too disingenuous to me. But I dunno, maybe I'm reading too far into it.

You have the zone meant to torture souls until they yield and can join the other realms in service, though there really only seems to be 1 such realm.

Meant to "rehabilitate" "troublesome" souls until they are "fitting" to enter the afterlife they truly deserve. I agree, Revendreth is kinda fucked, from what I've seen. And it's probably been fucked for at least as long as Denathrius has been beholden to the Jailer. Revendreth, as it stands right now under Denathrius, is nothing more than an extension of the Maw, hidden under a lot of pomp and class. Like Bastion, the system is flawed, but not because it's self-defeating, but simply because the rules of the system are incredibly easy to abuse. I'm equally curious what sort of changes are made to Revendreth over the course of the expansion, so that it can fulfill its true purpose and I can remove the quotation marks from my first sentence.

You have another realm where they just make a giant army to fight the enemies of death, whatever that is.

The Void, from what I've read. And also any situations of peril that come from within the Shadowlands themselves, like say, the off-chance that a bunch of Forsworn from Bastion amass a fighting force large enough to actually threaten the Archon and the whole of Bastion is in danger of collapsing. Then the Necrolords have the authority to come over and help protect Bastion. Something like that. That's my understanding of Maldraxxus' purpose. Better to have an army and never need to deploy it than to suddenly need a fighting force like that and it just doesn't exist.

Then you have the druid lands 2.0, since the emerald dream wasn't enough druid stuff.

I did think it was a bit weird that Ardenweald just seems to really be stepping on the Emerald Dream's toes a bit. I've sort of come around on it a little bit more. Now I'm kind of just hoping that the story works out cleanly, since I just generally like the idea of Ardenweald as a bridge between Death and the forces of Life, like the wild gods.

And the venthyr would be redeeming souls and sending them to tend the gardens or stand in the army. Since it seems the Kyrian only want the best of the best from life, so I doubt anything from Revendreth would go there.

So, essentially, become slaves one way or another to someone. Doesn't really seem like anyone in the shadowlands is truly free. Makes you wonder if there are other places to live there that we haven't been told about.

It's been said before, usually to no real benefit to an argument about the state of the Shadowlands, but the four realms of Death we're visiting aren't the only realms of death in existence. There are others, that Revendreth can send "rehabilitated" souls to. The thing is that these other realms don't really matter too much to us. These four realms basically make up "the machine of death" (or at least a significant part of it) by which the entirety of the Shadowlands is allowed to function. Being deemed suitable for these realms is basically being deemed suitable for becoming part of the machine, but I don't think every single soul that ever dies must become a part of the machine. It just seems like that because we're focused on these areas, and we're focused on these areas because they're probably going to be deeply involved in actually fixing the machine.

So, my working theory is Sylvanas has gone super mode about not being made into a slave again. She was already forced to be subjected to the whims of the Lich King and forced to kill her own people that she had sworn to protect. I can see very much how she would want to destroy the shadowlands to the point that she wouldn't be made into a slave yet again.

Sure. That makes sense. I had similar thoughts, that the heart of the matter is that Sylvanas is afraid of her fate after death, and will do absolutely anything to prevent it, which... includes snapping death in half and damning every soul who ever dies to an eternity of undeserved torment far worse than being a cog in the machine or doddering away peacefully in some other nameless realm for eternity. Which is unspeakably evil, and should probably be stopped, if able.

[Lorelei]

Yeah maybe there's a plane where people suck and fuck each other all day, but they're not showing that, so I'll assume it doesn't exist.

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That's what the Maw is there for. The point of Revendreth is for these people to get a chance to redeem themselves. The Afterlives episode showed us that this is not what's happening and that the Venthyr enjoy torturing these souls. Venthyr are just hypocrites, so why would anyone join them?

The Venthyr don't enjoy torturing souls (or rather, they aren't supposed to). The souls sent there are the ones who need to be pushed the hardest to atone, so this is why their methods are harsh. The Afterlives short is only part of the story (I played through it on beta and am trying not to spoil it for those who haven't).

[cparle87]

This is not the story of Deepholm at all. In fact, Deepholm's Pillar was ALREADY destroyed. We invade because we need to restore the Pillar, and we spent almost the ENTIRE questing experience earning the trust of the Earthen there, only to THEN ally with them when the Twilight Cultists realize what we're up to and try to stop us.

And Hyjal, again, only STARTS with a Cultist attack. The ACTUAL story of Hyjal is the reawakening of the Ancients - Aviana, Goldrin, Cenarius. The Cultist attacks FUEL this story, but almost no part of the story is defending Hyjal other than the very beginning - All of the rest is awakening the Ancients to fight back. It ENDS with you removing the Twilight threat from Hyjal entirely with their assistance. This is what I mean - Relevance to the MAIN plot of the expansion should be SECONDARY, not front and center.

Highmountain isn't about us recruiting the Highmountain to stop the Legion - The Highmountain come to US, because their High Chieftan is dead and they are desperate for help. We spend the entire questing experience solving their plights, and ultimately, discover the Legion traitors within their ranks and weed them out.

Stormheim isn't about stopping the Legion from killing Odyn, it doesn't even start with the Legion at all - Sylvanas has plans and Genn wants to stop them. Then Odyn recruits you for his tournament, believing you a worthy soul - Which is when you discover that the Legion has gained a foothold in one of the Vrykul settlements, and their champion to the tournament is one of those Vrykul. While, yes, your intent is to stop him - You spend almost the entire questing experience doing the trials for Odyn's tournament instead, only culminating in the dungeon where you finally kill him.

This isn't the case for Shadowlands zones. The Anima problem fuels every need for us to be there. The Anima problem is directly caused by the Maw, the main problem of the expansion. The fact is that it's all the same story in neat little packaging - The leadership of the various Shadowlands zones are corrupt, some due to blindness, others due to greed - But they all decide they need to hoard all the Anima they can. That's the story of EVERY Shadowlands zone.



I believe in bolding for emphasis. You don't have to consider bolded words right, it just means I'm putting more emphasis on them. :shrug:

Semantics. Preventing them from destroying something that will destroy the world versus repairing something that will prevent the world from being destroyed in the near future.

I can't even believe you about the Hyjal part. You argue that protecting Nordrassil isn't the reason we're there. Bringing back the Ancients wouldn't have meant anything if the Twilights and Ragnaros destroyed Nordrassil. The Ancients were the secondary plootline.

[Alanar]

It's also likely that we're visiting the four most problematic Shadowlands out of the many ones who may just be heavens.

Why is this likely?

[Soulwind]

Why is this likely?

Because it's convenient for the plot, which is the only quality Blizzard writers are consistent about.

[Sagenod]

I may be derailing this thread now (I guess?) but I don't think OP deserved to receive an infraction and possibly a ban for just discussing the topic of genocide, especially when it's related to the game and not the real world. The dude was never justifying genocide in any form, he was using that to further his point which is that the Shadowlands and the Eternal Ones all seem really sketchy... Which I think most people agree with.

As for the topic: If we know anything about the writers of this story, Sylvanas is telling us the truth and although we don't agree with her methodology she is going to save us. Most likely from the incursion of the Light and Void on Azeroth, which is certainly on the horizon.

[cparle87]

Why is this likely?

Because it's been straight up stated. We're going to the four parts of the afterlife suffering the worst from the anima shortage. Think about it. How often do we go where things are not going badly? They wouldn't be much to do in peaceful places.

[Hellspawnftw]

interesting theory

[sunnycutie]

yeah the shadowlands sound like a horrible place, so much for eternal peace after you die

[loras]

After having seen all of the Afterlives episodes and everything I've seen from the beta so far, I really do have to wonder if the Shadowlands are a place that should exist.

Bastion is a place where people lose their identity. They are depicted as angels, but they don't feel very angelic to me. And the people who are not ok with that are depicted as fallen angels with black wings. It seems to be a very dogmatic society. This seems to be the zone that is supposed to resemble our idea of heaven, but it doesn't feel like heaven at all. Is this the best the Shadowlands can do? That already doesn't bode well.

Revendreth is supposed to be the place where people redeem themselves, but it's clear now it's full of sadists, who will inflict pain onto helpless souls for their own gains and pleasure. It isn't just Denathrius. Look at the faces of those Venthyr. It's hard to imagine how the Maw could be any worse.

Ardenweald seems like a nice place, but the Winter Queen is cold and creepy. Something still doesn't sit well with me regarding Ursoc's death. Maybe it's the way they are just treating souls like resources and things to be discarded when they have become inconvenient.

Maldraxxus is just there to defend the Shadowlands. Don't know based on the above if they are worth defending in the first place.

All in all the Shadowlands feel like they are designed to leech anima from our souls. I initially thought it was just supposed to be the cycle of life and death. Living creatures gather anima, they go to the Shadowlands, the anima nurtures them, some creatures recover there, like in Ardenweald, and then return to life, etc.

But it's clear there is something grotesque and sinister going on. It makes me wonder if souls were ever really supposed to go to the Shadowlands, or if it wasn't just someone figuring out a way to steal those souls for their own purpose. Why do these lands need to exist? What right does a race like the Venthyr have to exist?

It seemed like an excuse to me at the time I heard it, but now when I think about it, when Sylvanas said she will "set us all free". I think she might have been speaking the truth. From all I've seen so far, the Shadowlands deserve to be destroyed. People deserve to just rest after they die, and not be used by alien races for their own purposes.

You'll get no argument from me there, given their present state. From what little i've seen in terms of spoilers we do try to address those things though, so maybe our presence is exactly for this reason: shit needs to be improved, whether through Sylvanas' way or ours.

But frankly i believe that Sylvanas' life's main theme continues there: that despite all her fury and rage she's still just a beast in a cage. A puppet with free will, manipulated into being a tool for whoever uses her, willingly or not.

[InfiniteCharger]

Come on now. Sylvanas is literally walking on borrowed time.

If anything, the drought in Shadowlands should partly be because of all the souls kept in the land of the living by unnatural magic.
Which means all of the folks who are trespassing there should immediately have their souls sucked into the land of the dead.
That would be the most logical story and that would put an end to the 'edgy' undead once and for all since they are cheating the shadowlands of anima.

Anything other than that makes no sense.

How on earth can Sylvanas have any pull in the world of the dead which literally means uncounted numbers of souls from across all the various worlds in the universe? What kind she bring to the table other than her soul which should be in judgement for all her actions? This is basically just destroying the lore of death itself to justify Sylvanas and the undead staying around forever.

Talk about plot armor. Sylvanas at this point is just a plot device (and has been for 2 expansions) for whatever directions Blizzard wants to take the story. Meaning that 'her itentions' don't even realistically matter anymore.

[Nelle]

Thanos did nothing wrong.

[ABK Morgan]

The Shadowlands is where all mortal souls end up when they die from all universes and such, if ive understood that right? Well imagine being someone from a far distant universe who has just died, ends up in the Shadowlands, and you find it all fudged up because some weird dead/undead woman had beef with everyone else on this other planet and now she has screwed up the afterlife for everyone else everywhere, makes us lot on Azeroth look a bunch of a**holes ruining the afterlife for everyone.

[LordTakeo]

That's why I started with I hate her. And I hate that she might be right. Cause she's a maniac.

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But even if they're in balance, that just means they can use our souls more efficiently. Does being out of balance make the Kyrian more creepy? No they are always like that. It's in their nature. Same for the sadist Venthyr.

I think you forgott that anima aren't souls. Our souls COME with Anima, which is used to nurture the expensive SL system. Our Souls are denizens of the realm where our souls go to.
And don't forget, there are more than just 4 realms. Those 4 just are the most dominant and have spoiler reasons.