The amount of complaining on is starting to get quite silly.

[Vandosq]

Could not agree more. I think people who are positive about the game don't seek out the forums though. Most people who waste their time on forums are the kind of people who would complain about anything under the sun. But it's definitely gotten worse over time.

[LostLocket]

I know what types of statement you are refering to and you are mostly incorrect in your statements.

There is no reason to assume monks arent being looked at. The 30% difference is based on Preachs anecdotal testing he even admits is faulty so I wouldn't read anything into that really. They are basically 2 people slapping a target dummy. It doesnt constitute into proper testing at all.

And no they didn't lie because they didn't say that. I know what you are refering to. Ion said that if they want to make all abilities available to everyone, they could. But in no way shape or form did he make this verbal contract with the community that if the 1% complains enough they would do any changes. They can choose to do this by their own will or not.

I mean those numbers are from a small amount of sims granted but it wasn't monks I was referring to. Most classes have specs that have different raid tiers worth of dmg differences based on what covenant you pick (this includes conduits and everything else rolled into that choice). The lie was they said they could and then a few weeks later said they couldn't. It wasn't about who was complaining.

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I have no problem with people bringing up real issues if they are well though out, back by facts or statistics, and not just a whinefest which usually is the case.

Case in point, early covenant discussions were nothing but sky is falling comments from people that were not even testing it. Once some tuning happened, more people were in beta, and more infor came out, it's no longer the dire situation people claimed it to be a few months ago.

Don't jump the gun, wait for information to be presented, and make a clear, concise, and emotional free argument, and we can debate.

The situation just seems as dire and I am one of the ones actively playing on the beta and helping run tests by feeding in logs.

Granted I focus on classes I intend to play only but there are very few classes with less then a 20% difference between covenants. You can say they are going to tune them but time and running dreadfully short for them to do so unless they plan to do scattershot nerfs once sl is live.

[Azerate]

I think the real problem is that a subset of people believe they are entitled to dictate how the game should work. Some of the players have been playing for so long and been so vocal over the years, that they deluded themselves to think that they have a say in the design, and if that design is not to their liking they take it as personal attack by the developers.

Look at some other games and how people usually behave in those. They buy it if it looks good, then they play it. If they like it, they play more, if they don't, they stop playing. That's it. In WoW however, a lot of players behave as if not playing is not an option, and therefore they are fighting so fiercely to make the game cater to them as much as possible and be as good (in their opinion) as possible.

In a way that's good, because that means WoW is basically some people's whole life, and that shows it's still doing good. The problem with this is that it creates a lot of toxicity on-line in discussions about the game.

[BananaHandsB]

Any community with relative anonymity tends towards negativity. Silence equates to people being happy, so you generally only hear the negative. Though, Activision has been feeding this negativity ever since they bought Blizzard with their push towards faster content and reliance on metrics like MAU instead of quality of product and player satisfaction, and it's likely just to continue getting worse.

[WowIsDead64]

I think the real problem is that a subset of people believe they are entitled to dictate how the game should work. Some of the players have been playing for so long and been so vocal over the years, that they deluded themselves to think that they have a say in the design, and if that design is not to their liking they take it as personal attack by the developers.

Look at some other games and how people usually behave in those. They buy it if it looks good, then they play it. If they like it, they play more, if they don't, they stop playing. That's it. In WoW however, a lot of players behave as if not playing is not an option, and therefore they are fighting so fiercely to make the game cater to them as much as possible and be as good (in their opinion) as possible.

In a way that's good, because that means WoW is basically some people's whole life, and that shows it's still doing good. The problem with this is that it creates a lot of toxicity on-line in discussions about the game.

It's due to investment. MMOs are about long term investment. Time and effort. And I don't even talk about money. Having plans for future - is one of major factors in such games. So, when all of a sudden game just becomes broken, at least people try to get it fixed before quitting. Or quit, but just hope, that it will be fixed some day, so they'll be able to return.

Let's be honest. Haters - are people, who love this game the most. They hate it, just because they want to play it, but can't.

[Cyanu]

actually you are right OP, for all the wonders you can find in various games a part of the gaming community is a volatile mix of mental disorders and this is reflected both in game and in various gaming media

[Aggrophobic]

There's some good reasons to complain though. Blizzard is trying pretty hard to creat a rather poor product this time around.
It's like they never learn.

[Sithalos]

It is indeed very draining, and when we got so many more fun things to do, I rather do that. Like hyping for Shadowlands, looking forward to it. Trying to hype here on these forum just doesn't work.

I have a feeling that most people who post on these forums don't even play WoW anymore, but they still feel the need to haunt it's fansites with their irrelevant presence.

The other day some dude posted a brick of text about how he felt the sub fee wasn't worth it, and how he could buy a pile of bargain bin Steam games instead. Like, why post that kind of shit here? Nobody actually cares about your stupid opinion, but they feel the need to do it anyway, and then they get really salty if you dare to disagree with them, or call them out on their bullshit.

It's just as you said - very draining.

[MoanaLisa]

It's better to be a more positive part of a community than to complain about others.

That said, I'm honest about what I think of things and don't try to predict anything in advance of having some experience with it. There's stuff I actively like, stuff I actively dislike, and a whole lot of things in the game that I'm ambivalent about.

A lot of what gets posted here is primarily being outrageous to provoke a response. That is what it is and is best ignored altogether.

==========================

There's some good reasons to complain though. Blizzard is trying pretty hard to creat a rather poor product this time around. It's like they never learn.

Nonsense. Professional game developers are not trying hard to create a poor product. Those who no longer care for the direction of the game should walk away and not look back. Personal opinions are not a good barometer on the quality of developer efforts. I can think of several games that I view as absolute dog shit but I can pretty much guarantee that the team that put it together invested a lot of work in it. Furthermore, even though I think some game is a pile of crap there are plenty of others who disagree. That's all well and good.

[Doffen]

I have a feeling that most people who post on these forums don't even play WoW anymore, but they still feel the need to haunt it's fansites with their irrelevant presence.

The other day some dude posted a brick of text about how he felt the sub fee wasn't worth it, and how he could buy a pile of bargain bin Steam games instead. Like, why post that kind of shit here? Nobody actually cares about your stupid opinion, but they feel the need to do it anyway, and then they get really salty if you dare to disagree with them, or call them out on their bullshit.

It's just as you said - very draining.

Yeah, I see people here who has been saying WoW has been shit for 4-6 years, still they talk about their in game stuff and achievements in different threads for all those years. I mean, there are few examples where they don't like ANYTHING, but still plays.

I mean, if a game is shit, why the hell would anyone play it. It's just not logical. But we humans ain't always logical so there is that

Nonsense. Professional game developers are not trying hard to create a poor product. Those who no longer care for the direction of the game should walk away and not look back. Personal opinions are not a good barometer on the quality of developer efforts. I can think of several games that I view as absolute dog shit but I can pretty much guarantee that the team that put it together invested a lot of work in it. Furthermore, even though I think some game is a pile of crap there are plenty of others who disagree. That's all well and good.

It is indeed nonsense. Why would the devs make it bad on purpose? And we have people who are sincere when they say these kinds of thing.

Being critical is all well and good, it is even critical for the game to improve. But you get to the point where changes and game designs isn't of your liking, but then you have to consider that there are most likely people who disagrees and really like it. Doesn't make anyone right, but each opinion is true for each individual.

For someone to say Blizzard tries to make WoW bad on purpose is utterly nonsensical though and should not be taken seriously.

[Ryzek]

There's some good reasons to complain though. Blizzard is trying pretty hard to creat a rather poor product this time around.
It's like they never learn.

Blah blah, they are killing the game. Its the same shit every xpac.

[Accendor]

I know if I get any response to this it will most likely be a lot of backfire because I am basically attacking a portion of the community, however this has starting to get very frustrating. I have been thinking a lot on this subject lately and I first thought it would come nothing good out of adressing it, but increasingly I feel the need to push back against this sillyness. I love this game so much and I would love to come on here to talk about awesome things, but I find myself very distracted by negativity which doesn't hold any water, most of the time.

So what am I really talking about? Well first of I need to mention that have high-functioning autism and that is somewhat relevant because I despise people as a collective (not in their individual components of course, I love spending time with certain people). Watching people from a distance behaving in groups is very interesting to me and something that always worries me. People have a tendency to rally behind negativity, not just in gaming but in general. Thats why we have riots and people march. Though some marches have good intentions and outcomes.

There is also this concept of content creators and the fact that negativity and controversy attract more attention. This feeds into this feedback loop which is very addicting to content creators. This is a huge factor of what is driving this negativity and the complaining and its speaks against its validity. Also, coming with negativity or critisism in general, not just regarding to World of Warcraft, have a tendency to make you appear as a more intelligent and sophisticated person. If you are complaining about something, you show that you have put effort into things, analyzed and made up your intelligent conclusion. Though this is hardly the case. On the other hand, if you are positive about something, you are just this somewhat ignorant gullable person who accepts anything at face value and probably is very forgiving and naive. I would say that is most often not the case at all.

So back to my autism thingy and how I don't like people in groups. When I see people even in a minority behave in a certain way I have a tendency to go the opposite direction and wonder why they are behaving in such a way. What is the reason behind it.

Evaluating the common complaints recently I find that 90% of the time they have no real proper reasoned arguments behind them and frankly if I might be so bold, say that they seem coming from posters that haven't made up their own arguments, but following a script. The sentences are formulated the same way and if there are more arguments behind it, it sounds equally the same. Now, that itself doesn't make an argument wrong. People could be posting from a script like mindless bots and come with accurate information. This just doesn't seem to be the case about issues related to recent issues people discuss.

Now, I know its provoking for me to reduce most opinions down to people just parroting others statements or like posting from a script, however that is how it appears to me and I am still open to a nuanced discussion around critisism from people who have put a lot of thought into their own arguments. However that is not what I see most of the time, though it happens from time to time.

Also I can watch a youtube or streamer with a lot of followers, and lo and behold, the next day I see people write exactly the same complaint, word for word in comment section on youtube and even here. I even saw many comments yesterday on Youtube to a specific video adressing class balance and people were writing "Oh I was so hyped for Shadowlands, but after watching this, I can't play this expansion after all" People will ACTUALLY accept a youtubers subjective opinion on something as gospel instead of trying the game for themselves.

I am going to adress the most recent complaint, but there are many of them like "BFA was garbage", "Covenants will fail". I would say both these statements are exaggurated and false. And the reality is far more nuanced. So I will only adress the most recent one for now.

The newest thing to complain about now is what has been refered to as "borrowed power". This has always existed, though at a lesser extent. We used to borrow legendaries and set bonuses from tier sets, leaving them behind as we went into new content. The argument is that Blizzard should stop making these systems and move them into talents and abilities and even spend more time working on balance.

These systems are a solution to a problem which was rightly complained about. Introducing new talents and abilities over several expansions gave us so many abilities that Blizzard decided to prune them. And we know how that was recieved. Making new abilities based on the theme of the expansion is a way to solve this issue. When it comes to balance then I think according to looking at warcraftlogs, the game has never been more balanced. But people are so obsessed with being optimal in every situation and never being at an disadvantage that even the 3% difference is unbearable to some people.

Another argument is that Blizzard should keep the systems going into new expansions. If that was a good idea then in Shadowlands we would spend 90% of our time in our garrisons, with legendary ring from MoP, having artifact weapons with 2000 Concordance of Legionfall, Azerite Armor with 6 rings, 20 legendary essences, 8 corruption effects, legendary cloak, covenant abilities, souldbinds, crafted legendaries having 90 different passive effects and procs going of all the time and you become this death machine with 140% haste all the time.

I am exaggurating a bit, but you have to see that this is not a good solution. Borrowed power is the best annoying solution compared to the alternatives.

Also I feel more and more sympathy for the developers of the game. They spend 10 hours a day or so, underpaid under bad conditions working on systems they now they must change in the future anyway because feedback from the usual suspects dictates so, just to come home and trying to connect with the community and they read posts that they should be fired and don't care about the game. It's a miracle we even have a game to log into at this point.

I will stop there for now and apologize this was a bit long. I have a lot more to say about this and since I have basically offended half of the people that post here, I guess I will have the opportunity to adress more issues if this is turning out something people are willing to discuss.

If Blizzard continues to continue to make stupid decision agter stupid decision you can expect people to complain. It freels like its getting worse, because it is. Small things pile up, snd there a lot or them - not even starting with the big ones.

[Aggrophobic]

It's better to be a more positive part of a community than to complain about others.

That said, I'm honest about what I think of things and don't try to predict anything in advance of having some experience with it. There's stuff I actively like, stuff I actively dislike, and a whole lot of things in the game that I'm ambivalent about.

A lot of what gets posted here is primarily being outrageous to provoke a response. That is what it is and is best ignored altogether.

==========================



Nonsense. Professional game developers are not trying hard to create a poor product. Those who no longer care for the direction of the game should walk away and not look back. Personal opinions are not a good barometer on the quality of developer efforts. I can think of several games that I view as absolute dog shit but I can pretty much guarantee that the team that put it together invested a lot of work in it. Furthermore, even though I think some game is a pile of crap there are plenty of others who disagree. That's all well and good.

No, of course not but they have people working on the game that have no clue what it's about.
Their metrics for determining what is good content is obviously flawed. They are just bad at their job, simple as that.

There is a reason why the important names left the team already after all.

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Blah blah, they are killing the game. Its the same shit every xpac.

They have been tossing out rather poor products the last few expansions though so yeah.

[ClassicPeon]

For someone to say Blizzard tries to make WoW bad on purpose is utterly nonsensical though and should not be taken seriously.

Not only should it not be taken seriously it should be moderated. This forum is a product of bad moderation. It corrupts both the valid discussions with actual good feedback aswell as the hype threads that could make this forum great.

I honestly cant fathom why this forum is not moderated better for its own sake.

[Garymorilix]

That's what is called an opinion. And you did not even deliver a proper reasoning, you just reasoned against ONE alternative (there is not just black and white here).
Not having borrowed power worked for 6/9 of WoW's lifetime (measured in patches and SL is included). So to say borrowed power (in the Legion sense) is the best solution is HIGHLY subjective, not really statistically founded and not properly reasoned by you.

Also having systems to build on has been positive. Mythic + is probably the most successful system ever and it is build on dungeons, a system form the beginning of WoW.
Same could have been done for Garrisons. They would have been changed slightly of course, since they had some flaws. But the complaint here is, that Blizzard often abandones systems instead of fixing them, even if they have the potential to be excellent.
Garrisons could have been made guild wide, fixing the "alone" problem. Island Expeditions could have been made around exploration, triggering different scenario options to progress. Warfronts could have been made in an Epic Battleground style, where PvP players fight at the front while PvE players gather ressources and build the base to support PvP players.

Just because you lack creativity and are unable to understand different opinions (since you don't like other groups of people) does not mean that your opinion is right. High functioning autist or not (don't really see why thats important tbh...).

Bullshit.

He literally explained in the paragraph before that how not having borrowed power would look like and it was also the exact same reason given by Blizzard when they started pruning classes.

When you have more abilities than spaces on your basic built-in task bar then there are problems. Especially when 25% of them are virtually useless flavor stuff.

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Not only should it not be taken seriously it should be moderated. This forum is a product of bad moderation. It corrupts both the valid discussions with actual good feedback aswell as the hype threads that could make this forum great.

I honestly cant fathom why this forum is not moderated better for its own sake.

Apparently when you have a 10y old member badge under your name whatever you write becomes truth instantly and if you dare counter that you will be the one moderated.

Funnily enough, these 10y old members are the most toxic and negative about the current game making bait threads all day.

[Malikath]

This is not your fucking blog, requesting thread deletion.

[scrappybristol]

I just think its absurd to have 40% of the power to be on our actual characters and 60% to be on outside systems like azerite armor, legendaries, corruption, etc, etc.

That's what it feels like at least.

Imo the split should be more 80% character, 20% borrowed.

[Steelangel]

You don't need to apologize OP.
General sexism: Arthas is a revered figure, but Sylvanas is an evil bich and ''feminazi propaganda'' has entered Blizz (despite those two chars having similar concepts). Kul Tiran female controversy (can't have fat females in my game, amirite), many other examples.

This really does make me upset. Arthas's character arc isn't anything more special than Sylvanas, and I don't get the Arthas love at all. He's the most cartoon villain in the whole series.

[Garymorilix]

Also, the vast majority of people who complain this much on forums usually don't even play the game itself OR log in once a week to farm transmog at best.

I really think this forum would do better for meaningful discussions if you had to use an active WoW account to post. 80% of whiners would be basically deleted.

[ClassicPeon]

This really does make me upset. Arthas's character arc isn't anything more special than Sylvanas, and I don't get the Arthas love at all. He's the most cartoon villain in the whole series.

I think one of the reasons people really feel attached to arthas is that we played him as he went evil in wc3. Where as other characters we know from wc3 like Illidan randomly went evil in wow.

I dont understand why people have a problem with Sylvanas and her actions either though. I mean sure there are plotholes but come on. Get over it